View Full Version : Holding a firearm during BG Check.
BlasterBob
02-24-2013, 10:55
Holding the firearm during BG Check?
Just kinda wondering how it'll work.
So the seller and buyer both face the FFL dealer with a firearm that they want to sell/buy and comply with the "probable" upcoming required Back Ground Check covering individual to individual type transfers. The firearm is physically handed over to the FFL dealer, the Form 4473 is executed and the phone call is made and the firearm is placed in the FFL's records and firearms inventory. The wait is more than a day or so, prompting the buyer and seller go back home to return at a later date when clearance is finally received. In the meantime, there is a serious fire in the FFL's shop destroying the subject firearm OR there is a burglary and this firearm is stolen or mysteriously disappears from the shop. Is the FFL dealer going to be liable for the firearm or is he/she going to hopefully have the seller/buyer sign a release of liability covering the loss of the firearm. The State of Colorado is more or less responsible for requiring that BGC so what is going to be expected of the State since they required the transfer to be covered by a BG Check by a FFL dealer- that can't be completed on the same day?
If the buyer of a firearm is totally cleared by the CBI and the buyer goes out and immediately shoots someone with that particular firearm, the State has already indicated that the buyer is OK to have the firearm, are they (the State) in ANY way responsible for "allowing" the transaction to be completed on their OK? It is going to be extremely important that the municipal LEO's and any other responsible individuals to update any criminal activity or serious mental problems on a TIMELY BASIS with the CBI so that the CBI can be up to date on their info to clear prospective buyers.
I didn't think background checks themselves had specific firearms linked to them. The CBI printout I've gotten in the past makes no mention of the item I was purchasing.
If the background check is going to get logged, let the BG check pass, THEN you turn over the gun through the FFL to be given to the new owner, IMO.
BlasterBob
02-24-2013, 11:05
I didn't think background checks themselves had specific firearms linked to them. The CBI printout I've gotten in the past makes no mention of the item I was purchasing.
If the background check is going to get logged, let the BG check pass, THEN you turn over the gun through the FFL to be given to the new owner, IMO.
So far, the CBI does not require serial numbers and total description, but I am referring to the "probable" upcoming BG Checks to be performed for FTF transfers that will HAVE to be made through FFL dealers, as may be made necessary by the new requirements IF they do pass and become law. Those, according to what is expected to pass, will be required to be run through the FFL dealers official records and they will be held by the dealer until CBI clearance is received. Right?
10mm-man
02-24-2013, 11:07
I didn't think background checks themselves had specific firearms linked to them. The CBI printout I've gotten in the past makes no mention of the item I was purchasing.
If the background check is going to get logged, let the BG check pass, THEN you turn over the gun through the FFL to be given to the new owner, IMO.
It would make sense to have the owner hold on to it until the BCG clears and then do the transfer. Sound like a mess brewing, doesn't it.........
^^^ to your post above; Were does it say I would have to take possession on the day I submit the BCG? Not sure it does; so running it through my books on at the time the transfer takes place would be ok. Speculation on this of course; we will have to wait and see....
BlasterBob
02-24-2013, 11:14
It would make sense to have the owner hold on to it until the BCG clears and then do the transfer. Sound like a mess brewing, doesn't it.........
I agree, it will be a super "mess".
If this new piece of crap (legislation) does pass, it appears that the FFL will have to hold the firearm until the CBI clearance is received. He will most likely be required to enter it into his disposition book/log. If there is a delay in receiving the CBI clearance, that gun will most likely be expected to be on hand at the dealers place in the unlikely event BATF pays the FFL a visit wanting to make certain that ALL firearms that are logged in to his records are on hand for their inspection. This is only my opinion on how it'll probably work. Hope I am wrong though. This may not apply to the Colorado State BG Check for FTF transfers but I'll bet it will apply to the Universal BG Check that YOUR President wants to pass.
10mm-man
02-24-2013, 11:24
I agree, it will be a super "mess".
If this new piece of crap (legislation) does pass, it appears that the FFL will have to hold the firearm until the CBI clearance is received. He will most likely be required to enter it into his disposition book/log. If there is a delay in receiving the CBI clearance, that gun will most likely be expected to be on hand at the dealers place in the unlikely event BATF pays the FFL a visit wanting to make certain that ALL firearms that are logged in to his records are on hand for their inspection. This is only my opinion on how it'll probably work. Hope I am wrong though. This may not apply to the Colorado State BG Check for FTF transfers but I'll bet it will apply to the Universal BG Check that YOUR President wants to pass.
Ok, it isn't law yet but let's pretend it is; Were does it say I need to take possession of the gun to do a BGC? I would let you hold the gun until it cleared and then log it and transfer it. No law saying i need the gun on the books before a BCG. If so, show me....
It would make sense to have the owner hold on to it until the BCG clears and then do the transfer. Sound like a mess brewing, doesn't it.........
^^^ to your post above; Were does it say I would have to take possession on the day I submit the BCG? Not sure it does; so running it through my books on at the time the transfer takes place would be ok. Speculation on this of course; we will have to wait and see....
I'm no FFL, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once.
Due to the wait times experienced, I have to think I'm not the only one that has been "pre-filing" 4473 for transfers for guns ordered but not shipped. Since the BGC is good for 30 days, has no item disclosure when submitted, and can cover multiple purchases/transfers, I can't imagine any case where CO could override the Fed side of the 4473 regs.
So my theory would be owner maintains possession until actual transfer takes place.
My hope is that the BS bills die.
10mm-man
02-24-2013, 11:36
I'm no FFL, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once.
Due to the wait times experienced, I have to think I'm not the only one that has been "pre-filing" 4473 for transfers for guns ordered but not shipped. Since the BGC is good for 30 days, has no item disclosure when submitted, and can cover multiple purchases/transfers, I can't imagine any case where CO could override the Fed side of the 4473 regs.
So my theory would be owner maintains possession until actual transfer takes place.
My hope is that the BS bills die.
Which holiday inn did you stay at?[ROFL2][ROFL3] - FFL only needs make, model, serial number to run BCG. i would let the owner keep it until it cleared to reduce the laibility!!
My understanding of the bill is that all transfers will be standard FFL transfers.
Seller gives gun to FFL who then logs it into his books. Buyers fills out 4473. FFL conducts (no so) instant check with CBI. Upon approval FFL gives gun to buyer and logs out in his book. Dealer must now retain 4473 pursuant to Federal Law.
Mike
Ok, it isn't law yet but let's pretend it is; Were does it say I need to take possession of the gun to do a BGC? I would let you hold the gun until it cleared and then log it and transfer it. No law saying i need the gun on the books before a BCG. If so, show me....
it says you have to treat it exactly the same as you would treat a retail transfer.
This wording seems pretty clear to me, you record it in your book. I doubt you'll want anything in your book not physically in your shop.
(b) ALICENSED GUN DEALER WHO OBTAINS A BACKGROUND CHECK
ON A PROSPECTIVE TRANSFEREE SHALL RECORD THE TRANSFER,AS
PROVIDED IN SECTION 12-26-102, C.R.S.,AND RETAIN THE RECORDS,AS
PROVIDED IN SECTION 12-26-103, C.R.S.,IN THE SAME MANNER AS WHEN
CONDUCTING A SALE,RENTAL,OR EXCHANGE AT RETAIL. THE LICENSED
GUN DEALER SHALL COMPLY WITH ALL STATE AND FEDERAL LAWS,
INCLUDING 18 U.S.C.SEC. 922,AS IF HE OR SHE WERE TRANSFERRING THE
FIREARM FROM HIS OR HER INVENTORY TO THE PROSPECTIVE TRANSFEREE.
I'll admit I have not read section 12-26-102 and 103 though.
It would make sense to have the owner hold on to it until the BCG clears and then do the transfer. Sound like a mess brewing, doesn't it.........
^^^ to your post above; Were does it say I would have to take possession on the day I submit the BCG? Not sure it does; so running it through my books on at the time the transfer takes place would be ok. Speculation on this of course; we will have to wait and see....
I just read the bill again. You are correct, it does not say that you need to take possession on the day you submit the BCG. I'm curious to know how Federal law will play into the possession issue. It certainly is a mess and much work for $10.00.
Mike
I saw a couple of people several years ago doing a private ale through an FFL. Didn't seem all that complex to me. The buyer and seller went to the FFL, paid a small fee to have the FFL run the 4473 for them. The seller got some kind of "receipt" showing that the buyer had passed the BGC. Cash and firearm exchanged hands and off they went. I don't think the FFL actually too possession of anything. He was simply the middle man in the transaction and got his cut for processing the paperwork.
Of course, I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night so I might be forgetting some of the details.
If anyone wants to see how it actually works then someone sell me a. Remington 870 and we'll do the transaction through an FFL. [Coffee]
thinking about about the quote from the law I gave, specifically the "As if a transfer from inventory" portion. I have (once) had dealer run the BG check when I placed an order through them instead of when I picked it up. That certainly qualifies as a retail transaction.
The question arises, what do you do if denied and the gun is not in your possession. When ordering from the distributor you are getting from another FFL, no issues with whoever holds the gun. If some agency asks for the paperwork on that transaction and you don't have much because it was never logged... dunno what happens there.
10mm-man
02-24-2013, 13:36
it says you have to treat it exactly the same as you would treat a retail transfer.
This wording seems pretty clear to me, you record it in your book. I doubt you'll want anything in your book not physically in your shop.
I'll admit I have not read section 12-26-102 and 103 though.
There is nothing that says i can't run the check without logging a firearm or having to have it "in hand"; CBI has verified gun does not need to be in"HAND" or on your books to run a BGC- Serial, model, caliber is all that is needed.....
The question arises, what do you do if denied and the gun is not in your possession. When ordering from the distributor you are getting from another FFL, no issues with whoever holds the gun. If some agency asks for the paperwork on that transaction and you don't have much because it was never logged... dunno what happens there.
Good point put it is in original owners hands and transaction never took place... Mute point i would think...
Good point put it is in original owners hands and transaction never took place... Mute point i would think...
Just wondering what happens if some LE decides to actually follow up on the denied action. May not be so moot if you don't have a 4473 that they lied on for them to work with.
10mm-man
02-24-2013, 14:23
Just wondering what happens if some LE decides to actually follow up on the denied action. May not be so moot if you don't have a 4473 that they lied on for them to work with.
O wait,sorry, let me clarify; I assumed in the conversation the 4473 was filled out. You need to have the firearms section filled out on the "4473" to run the BGC... Signed, license verified, etc. Just not required to have the gun "in hand"....
How does it work today at a gun show?
I sold a pistol at a gun show last year. Buyer did the form, I left the pistol at the BGC table and left. They had my number in case there was an issue. But I suppose it's theoretically possible that there could be a theft or fire during the wait for the BGC. "Then what?" is a fair question.
BPTactical
02-24-2013, 15:29
This legislation if passed has the potential to create quite a mess for the state. If I understand the regs correctly a FFL must have "possession" of a firearm to conduct a 4473 BGC. This means as noted earlier the FFL must log it as an "Acquisition", do the 4473 BGC of the purchasing party then log it out as a "Disposal". If the prospective purchaser is denied the FFL must perform a 4473 BGC on the seller before returning the firearm to them. If the seller gets denied the seller and purchaser are SOL and the FFL becomes the owner of the firearm.
FFL's will be mandated by law to conduct BGC's for private sales and will not be able to charge in excess of $10.00 for it.
So now a FFL is forced by law to perform the exact same process as a retail transfer that they usually charge $25-40.00 for for a reduced rate.
I don't believe the state can mandate a business to conduct a transaction that causes a business to lose money.
If the FFL's in this state were smart they would pull together as a collective group and exert some legal leverage.
10mm-man
02-24-2013, 16:20
This legislation if passed has the potential to create quite a mess for the state. If I understand the regs correctly a FFL must have "possession" of a firearm to conduct a 4473 BGC. This means as noted earlier the FFL must log it as an "Acquisition", do the 4473 BGC of the purchasing party then log it out as a "Disposal". If the prospective purchaser is denied the FFL must perform a 4473 BGC on the seller before returning the firearm to them. If the seller gets denied the seller and purchaser are SOL and the FFL becomes the owner of the firearm.
FFL's will be mandated by law to conduct BGC's for private sales and will not be able to charge in excess of $10.00 for it.
So now a FFL is forced by law to perform the exact same process as a retail transfer that they usually charge $25-40.00 for for a reduced rate.
I don't believe the state can mandate a business to conduct a transaction that causes a business to lose money.
If the FFL's in this state were smart they would pull together as a collective group and exert some legal leverage.
Can you post the back up - I don't care to dig through it. As for force, I doubt they can force me to do a BGC for a private transaction. As for the $10, isn't it for the BGC and not necessarily for the handling and transfer service? Either way looks like I won't be doing "private" transactions; which wasn't in my business model anyway.
to clarify; we are talking about "proposed" reg in relationship to "possession" of a firearm to conduct the a 4473 correct? Because as of right now there is no "possession" requirement. Of course i have no written regulation to back that up (only CBI verbal) but I also don't see nothing contrary in the ATF/ Colorado CBI regs. Please post if you do...
Thanks,
BPTactical
02-24-2013, 16:48
There was verbiage that MANDATES FFL's shall conduct BGC's for private transactions.
How can a FFL run a Federal BGC if they do not have possession of the firearm? As far as the 10.00 for the BGC I can easily see your point occurring. A FFL will charge 10.00 for the BGC but paperwork fees, handling fees etc will be tacked on. Next thing you know a private sale will cost you an additional $40.00.
All the more reason I have never nor ever will conduct transfers and sales.
There was verbiage that MANDATES FFL's shall conduct BGC's for private transactions.
How can a FFL run a Federal BGC if they do not have possession of the firearm? As far as the 10.00 for the BGC I can easily see your point occurring. A FFL will charge 10.00 for the BGC but paperwork fees, handling fees etc will be tacked on. Next thing you know a private sale will cost you an additional $40.00.
All the more reason I have never nor ever will conduct transfers and sales.
The FFLs can only charge $10.00 for the transfer. If the bill passes for a $10.00 fee to CBI for the BGC then it would be a total of $20.00 for a transfer.
Mike
10mm-man
02-24-2013, 17:04
There was verbiage that MANDATES FFL's shall conduct BGC's for private transactions.
How can a FFL run a Federal BGC if they do not have possession of the firearm? As far as the 10.00 for the BGC I can easily see your point occurring. A FFL will charge 10.00 for the BGC but paperwork fees, handling fees etc will be tacked on. Next thing you know a private sale will cost you an additional $40.00.
All the more reason I have never nor ever will conduct transfers and sales.
I wrote it in prior post back (or maybe it is in a similar thread that is running). You do not need the Gun "in hand" to run a BGC......... make, model, Serial number 4473 filled out and signed. verified through CBI this was cool- the supervisor said YES. Can't find anything contrary....
As for the "Mandates" part- not going to happen. Can't force me to conduct a background check for someone when it doesn't fit my business profile. I must not fully understand the mandate part if what i said is wrong.
... In the meantime, there is a serious fire in the FFL's shop destroying the subject firearm OR there is a burglary and this firearm is stolen or mysteriously disappears from the shop. Is the FFL dealer going to be liable for the firearm or is he/she going to hopefully have the seller/buyer sign a release of liability covering the loss of the firearm.
I wouldn't be terribly worried about that possibility; that's precisely why we carry insurance.
BlasterBob
02-24-2013, 17:39
I have been attempting to post a copy of a recently received letter addressed to ALL FFL holders with the heading, "Open letter to all Federal Firearms Licensees". This letter refers to FFL holders assisting with transfers between private individuals. Will make another attempt to post this letter tomorrow because right now we are having a serious snow storm which is apparently slowing down our computer service. And the internet is extremely busy with all the folks from Denver and South using their computers since they'd rather be farting around with the computer than go outside to shovel snow..[Plow]
And the internet is extremely busy with all the folks from Denver and South using their computers since they'd rather be farting around with the computer than go outside to shovel snow.
Funny that you would say that, this is exactly what I have been doing all day! :D
trlcavscout
02-24-2013, 17:46
Since it would be a requirement cop shops should be the ones doing it so ffl's arent raping people and so its instant like other areas with this BS law do it.
I for one will not be contributing to this circle jerk.
BPTactical
02-24-2013, 19:51
I have been attempting to post a copy of a recently received letter addressed to ALL FFL holders with the heading, "Open letter to all Federal Firearms Licensees". This letter refers to FFL holders assisting with transfers between private individuals.
And here you go: http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2013/01/011613-ffl-open-letter-facilitating-transfers-of-firearms-between-private-individuals.pdf
10mm-man
02-24-2013, 21:01
And here you go: http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2013/01/011613-ffl-open-letter-facilitating-transfers-of-firearms-between-private-individuals.pdf
Thanks! So for the purpose of this discussion it says; upon receipt of the gun. so I am still going to go with not needing it until the BGC clears.
BlasterBob
02-25-2013, 09:53
And here you go: http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2013/01/011613-ffl-open-letter-facilitating-transfers-of-firearms-between-private-individuals.pdf
Many thanks for posting that and I have been referring to the bottom few lines on the first page and all of the second page. My main concern in my original post was when the BG Check couldn't be performed on the SAME day the buyer/seller showed up at the FFL location for the check to be made. The CBI may be much more lenient than the requirements of the Fed's when it comes to actually having the firearm in hand and enter it in their book for the check. I would believe most FFL's would like to physically view the serial number if they are going to handle the process.
I hope universal BG checks are never mandated by either the CBI or the Feds but if it is, there is always a very "remote possibility" that it will be absolutely required of ALL FFL's to actually provide the service of Universal BG Checks and (again, doubtful) and they could make it absolutely mandatory that every FFL provide this service or LOSE their license. Hey, with our Government, any thing like this COULD happen. They could advise all FFL's that refusal to comply with their requirement could mean quick loss of their license and that'd run a lot of businesses to their demise. These are only possibilities but they are still possible. OK, who is going to say NO WAY this could ever possibly happen?
BlasterBob
02-25-2013, 10:03
Thanks! So for the purpose of this discussion it says; upon receipt of the gun. so I am still going to go with not needing it until the BGC clears.
This may very well just fine with the CBI but I believe the Feds require the firearm to be entered in the received column of their BOOK prior to making the phone or computer check and if the transfer is rejected by CBI, the firearm would be returned to the seller only AFTER he completes a 4473 and his back ground check is completed. Maybe I am wrong and "beating a dead horse" but I believe that is what the Feds currently expect and require.
This may very well just fine with the CBI but I believe the Feds require the firearm to be entered in the received column of their BOOK prior to making the phone or computer check and if the transfer is rejected by CBI, the firearm would be returned to the seller only AFTER he completes a 4473 and his back ground check is completed.
You bring up a good point but I believe that the FFL licensee has until the end of the day to input the firearm into his Bound Book which would mean that you don't necessarily have to "accept" the firearm into your inventory prior to running the CBI check.
newracer
02-25-2013, 11:47
I have a really easy solution, do not comply.
Kraven251
02-25-2013, 11:50
I have a really easy solution, do not comply.
^^This
BlasterBob
02-25-2013, 12:03
You bring up a good point but I believe that the FFL licensee has until the end of the day to input the firearm into his Bound Book which would mean that you don't necessarily have to "accept" the firearm into your inventory prior to running the CBI check.
cysoto, now YOU bring up an excellent point. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what "they" want YOU guys to do if their proposed new laws which I feel are - [bulls] - actually materialize.
...their proposed new laws which I feel are - [bulls] ....
I agree 100% that ALL of the laws that have been recently introduced (as well as a few others which are already in place) are absolute BS.
I have a really easy solution, do not comply.
Though, as I said above, I wholeheartedly agree that these laws are BS, I would never propose (especially in an open forum) that we break the law by not complying with it.
10mm-man
02-25-2013, 12:30
I agree 100% that ALL of the laws that have been recently introduced (as well as a few others which are already in place) are absolute BS.
Though, as I said above, I wholeheartedly agree that these laws are BS, I would never propose (especially in an open forum) that we break the law by not complying with it.
I would I say non compliance is a really good thing especially if it is unconstitutional........... O and once more- you don't need the gun in hand to perform a BGC, just the make, model serial number on the 4473. Read prior post....... Have yet to see anything from ATF or CBI to the contrary.
I would I say non compliance is a really good thing especially if it is unconstitutional...........
The constitutionality of such law is yet to be determined but I do agree that this will be an aggressive point of contention by both parts.
O and once more- you don't need the gun in hand to perform a BGC, just the make, model serial number on the 4473. Read prior post....... Have yet to see anything from ATF or CBI to the contrary.
Though I don't have a quote on any specific statute (either State nor Federal) that mandates that a firearm be present at the time of filling out the 4473; what I can say for sure is that PERSONALLY I will not start the process until I have had a chance to verify the make, model and serial number with my own eyes. Having to make changes on the 4473 and then initial them opens the door to the BATF Inspector to start asking questions (i.e. brings up a red flag).
SA Friday
02-25-2013, 13:41
I would I say non compliance is a really good thing especially if it is unconstitutional........... O and once more- you don't need the gun in hand to perform a BGC, just the make, model serial number on the 4473. Read prior post....... Have yet to see anything from ATF or CBI to the contrary.
I'm not yet very experienced in selling firearms, but from what little I've done so far, I wouldn't transfer without physically seeing the firearm. I look at the SN and F it up, it's my bad. Some guy comes in with a piece of paper and it's wrong, then it's not my error but I'm still the one getting bent over for it.
10mm-man
02-25-2013, 14:21
I'm not yet very experienced in selling firearms, but from what little I've done so far, I wouldn't transfer without physically seeing the firearm. I look at the SN and F it up, it's my bad. Some guy comes in with a piece of paper and it's wrong, then it's not my error but I'm still the one getting bent over for it.
You can't transfer without the gun being in hand. Running a BGC without having to take possession is what I am talking about. Once BGC clears, then call in the two people and transfer the gun, is what I am speculating. Doing so would reduce the risk of loss for both parties as this was the original concern of the OP.
10mm-man
02-25-2013, 14:27
Though I don't have a quote on any specific statute (either State nor Federal) that mandates that a firearm be present at the time of filling out the 4473; what I can say for sure is that PERSONALLY I will not start the process until I have had a chance to verify the make, model and serial number with my own eyes. Having to make changes on the 4473 and then initial them opens the door to the BATF Inspector to start asking questions (i.e. brings up a red flag).
^^ Yes, agreed. However, in the the OP, the concern was; how does a transfer take place to avoid loss to all involved. I said; no need for the FFL to even take possession until the BGC clears. so in this case; buyer/seller meet at FFL office. seller brings gun, FFL verifies Make, Model, SN, buyer fills out 4473 and FFL submits. Buyer/ Seller go home until it clears, (seller keeps gun with him), BGC clears, they come back, FFL logs it as R&D, collects the $$$. Everyone goes bye bye. No need for the FFL to log it until the transfer is ready to go.....
I still don't get it.
When the wait time was up to 7-8 days and I had some lowers due in, I'd gone in and filled out 4473 while guns were still in transit, not yet received by the FFL.
I'm pretty sure the FFL submitted the BGC without any item serials, possibly even without descriptions. The BGC is also good for 30 days, so guns can be added to it at any time.
^^ Yes, agreed. However, in the the OP, the concern was; how does a transfer take place to avoid loss to all involved. I said; no need for the FFL to even take possession until the BGC clears. so in this case; buyer/seller meet at FFL office. seller brings gun, FFL verifies Make, Model, SN, buyer fills out 4473 and FFL submits. Buyer/ Seller go home until it clears, (seller keeps gun with him), BGC clears, they come back, FFL logs it as R&D, collects the $$$. Everyone goes bye bye. No need for the FFL to log it until the transfer is ready to go.....
Ahh... Gotcha! That makes sense.
10mm-man
02-25-2013, 14:49
I still don't get it.
When the wait time was up to 7-8 days and I had some lowers due in, I'd gone in and filled out 4473 while guns were still in transit, not yet received by the FFL.
I'm pretty sure the FFL submitted the BGC without any item serials, possibly even without descriptions. The BGC is also good for 30 days, so guns can be added to it at any time.
While some FFL's prob did so, the supervisor at the CBI said they have prosecuted for such things and were successful! Was told we need- Make, model, Sn and 4473 filled out and signed.
And NO guns can not be ADDED at anytime once the transfer is complete. meaning you can't go buy one and then come back 25 days later and add another to the original 4473.
...I'd gone in and filled out 4473 while guns were still in transit, not yet received by the FFL.
That's illegal. Had they been audited by the BATF and been found to be running background checks without having the guns in their possession, their FFL could have been revoked.
10mm-man
02-25-2013, 14:53
That's illegal. Had they been audited by the BATF and been found to be running background checks without having the guns in their possession, their FFL could have been revoked.
Not entirely true- you don't need the gun in hand. illegal if you run the BGC without the make, model, Sn. (I was told by the CBI if you have those things while waiting for a gun in transit from another FFL, it was ok) And you can't do the transfer without it in hand, logged R&D.
(I'm not a lawyer or member of ATF, CBI, so take it what it's worth)
Not entirely true- you don't need the gun in hand.
As I mentioned above, I don't have knowledge of a specific statute that addresses this but I do remember that, when we went through our interview with the BATF Inspector prior to getting our FFL, he did mention that we needed to physically inspect the serial number ourselves. I don't remember him saying that we had to have the firearm on hand but I understood what he said as "when you sign the 4473, you are affirming that that you personally checked all the information concerning both the firearm as well as the buyer's contact information" (taken from his/her DL).
Like SAFriday said, I do it this way all the time because, in the end, it is my ass that's on the line. Yes, the BATF Inspectors scare me a little bit... :-P
10mm-man
02-25-2013, 15:08
As I mentioned above, I don't have knowledge of a specific statute that addresses this but I do remember that, when we went through our interview with the BATF Inspector prior to getting our FFL, he did mention that we needed to physically inspect the serial number ourselves. I don't remember him saying that we had to have the firearm on hand but I understood what he said as "when you sign the 4473, you are affirming that that you personally checked all the information concerning both the firearm as well as the buyer's contact information" (taken from his/her DL).
Like SAFriday said, I do it this way all the time because, in the end, it is my ass that's on the line. Yes, the BATF Inspectors scare me a little bit... :-P
^ I do agree with you on that and that is the way to keep yourself safe! I thought; what would happen if the FFL gave you the wrong sn also. I have yet to do it because as humans we make mistakes and I too don't want a "Red Flag" when an audit comes. I want them in and out fast but just making the point that it "can be done" according to CBI and current regs as i haven't found anything contrary.
Surely then, I'm mistaken and misunderstood what the FFL told me.
10mm-man
02-25-2013, 16:41
Surely then, I'm mistaken and misunderstood what the FFL told me.
I doubt you misunderstood- I was told by others that FFL's were doing such. i was even told by the CBI supervisor and an investigator that FFL'S have done what you said and been prosecuted for it. I was then told the right way (in their eyes) how to do it. But as stated by cysoto (http://www.ar-15.co/members/335-cysoto) might want to error on caution and do it like he said.
BlasterBob
02-25-2013, 19:18
And you can't do the transfer without it in hand, logged R&D.
+1. This is what I have been trying to convey in my posts above.
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