Are Universal Background Checks feasible without registration?

[cysoto]

Governor Hickenlooper was quoted today by the Denver Post saying: "Universal background checks for guns is top priority." LINK: http://www.denverpost.com/ci_22659484?source=bb

Interestingly enough, the article also mentions that, through current background check requirements, "more than 1,000 felons" with criminal records {were discovered} and more than 100 arrests {made}. Which BTW, I don't know you but, it seems to me that arresting only 10% of these criminals seem quite inefficient - but that's another topic.

The way I see it, Universal Background Checks either require that ALL firearms are registered or that we all comply with this law on the "honor system" (and we all know how much "honor" criminals have)...

So, in your opinion, are Universal Background Checks feasible without gun registration?

[SA Friday]

I'm wouldn't be surprised if the numbers are accurate. Take away the ones the DA didn't want to prosecute and the ones that they couldn't prove the denied actually committed a crime by being denied, and you are going to have very very few prosecutable cases.

None of these laws will stop criminal activity as we currently know it. It will only muddy the waters and make legal gun owners more harassed.

As for registration, well, even these idiot politicians know that shit just won't fly. They are playing the success through nibbles game. Registration is a big mouth full, and even with all the BS floating around they know the only way to enforce it would be to harass, search, and seize. This big time man hours and big time pissed off people who own guns.

[ChunkyMonkey]

Within the same topic... how does the ATF firearm trace data work?

http://www.atf.gov/statistics/download/trace-data/2011/2011-trace-data-colorado.pdf

ATF has the capability to trace any serial numbers to the last FFL transaction.

HMMMMMMMM

[TFOGGER]

Utterly unenforceable. With the current BGC system, the data is supposedly deleted 24 hours after the check is approved, and it is not tied to a serial number. The proposed law doesn't address how LEOs are to determine if a firearm in your possession had a BGC done at the time of sale, how to determine if you possessed it prior to the law going into effect, or if you are in possession of a firearm that was transferred after the law went into effect. According to the bill's sponsor, it would be UP TO LAW ENFORCEMENT to make this determination, then you get your day in court, obviously after having your firearm impounded, and at great expense. This assumption of guilt may be our best point of attack WHEN we challenge the legality of this law, as well as the magazine ban, assuming we can't kill them in the Senate.

[newracer]

There is no way it can be enforced it it's current form.

The only thing that could happen is LEOs can setup stings to try and catch people breaking the law.

[OneGuy67]

Within the same topic... how does the ATF firearm trace data work?

http://www.atf.gov/statistics/download/trace-data/2011/2011-trace-data-colorado.pdf

ATF has the capability to trace any serial numbers to the last FFL transaction.

HMMMMMMMM

Usually, the ATF is only able to trace from the manufacturer to the first FFL transaction. On occasion, there is a chance for a secondary FFL transaction if the firearm goes back into a FFL's bound book as a trade in, FFL purchase, etc.

All the traces I've had done haven't been that spectacular in terms of information, unless the firearm was a recent purchase.

[OneGuy67]

I'm wouldn't be surprised if the numbers are accurate. Take away the ones the DA didn't want to prosecute and the ones that they couldn't prove the denied actually committed a crime by being denied, and you are going to have very very few prosecutable cases.

None of these laws will stop criminal activity as we currently know it. It will only muddy the waters and make legal gun owners more harassed.

As for registration, well, even these idiot politicians know that shit just won't fly. They are playing the success through nibbles game. Registration is a big mouth full, and even with all the BS floating around they know the only way to enforce it would be to harass, search, and seize. This big time man hours and big time pissed off people who own guns.

The issue I've faced in the past with this is, the local DA believes the 4473 is a federal form and should be prosecuted at the federal level; the AUSA's won't touch these as they are petty felonies in their eyes and don't meet their threshold for prosecution. It is very frustrating to try to work such a case and not get any support.

[cysoto]

The only thing that could happen is LEOs can setup stings to try and catch people breaking the law.

Yeap, I certainly can see that happening!!

[SA Friday]

The issue I've faced in the past with this is, the local DA believes the 4473 is a federal form and should be prosecuted at the federal level; the AUSA's won't touch these as they are petty felonies in their eyes and don't meet their threshold for prosecution. It is very frustrating to try to work such a case and not get any support.
Yep. Meant AUSA and typed DA... Getting old sucks.

I've discussed this same problem with straw purchases and trying to get them prosecuted in other threads. Ultimately, gun control isn't the current problem. We have more than enough laws on the books, hell, too many. The problem is these are just not prosecuted due to a serious lack of Federal court system. Unintended consequence is it looks to the liberals like we need more laws. They just haven't learned it will make no difference.

[cysoto]

The issue I've faced in the past with this is, the local DA believes the 4473 is a federal form and should be prosecuted at the federal level...

Ahhh... Now I understand.

[OneGuy67]

Yep. Meant AUSA and typed DA... Getting old sucks.

I've discussed this same problem with straw purchases and trying to get them prosecuted in other threads. Ultimately, gun control isn't the current problem. We have more than enough laws on the books, hell, too many. The problem is these are just not prosecuted due to a serious lack of Federal court system. Unintended consequence is it looks to the liberals like we need more laws. They just haven't learned it will make no difference.

An easy way to make the law more applicable and enforceable would be to have a state level form that mirrors the federal 4473. I wish I could say replace the federal form, but that isn't going to happen.

[SA Friday]

An easy way to make the law more applicable and enforceable would be to have a state level form that mirrors the federal 4473. I wish I could say replace the federal form, but that isn't going to happen.
Dear Baby Jesus in heaven, don't give them any ideas. Went through that shit in MD. It took over an hour to fill all the forms out.

[ChunkyMonkey]

Usually, the ATF is only able to trace from the manufacturer to the first FFL transaction. On occasion, there is a chance for a secondary FFL transaction if the firearm goes back into a FFL's bound book as a trade in, FFL purchase, etc.

All the traces I've had done haven't been that spectacular in terms of information, unless the firearm was a recent purchase.


Thanks for the clarification.. so it's to the FIRST ffl transaction, then it's leg work from there.

[muddywings]

There is no way it can be enforced it it's current form.

The only thing that could happen is LEOs can setup stings to try and catch people breaking the law.

mods will have to watch the For Sale Section like a hawk AND do thorough background checks on all new members!

[OneGuy67]

Thanks for the clarification.. so it's to the FIRST ffl transaction, then it's leg work from there.

The manufacturers keep pretty good records of where their products go, so the first step is with them to determine who they sold it to. That is going to be either a FFL holder or to a individual person. From there, it is legwork on the part of an investigator to physically track down the seller/buyer if they can do so.

The firearm can pop up on the proverbial radar again if it goes through a FFL's hands at a later time and that FFL's books are turned in to the ATF at the end of their license. From there, it is again legwork to track down the buyer and follow the buyer/seller string.

In the end, without some sort of registration, it isn't going to be realistic to track all firearms that buy/sell/trade on a daily basis. I'm never going to say never, as this administration scares me, but the chances of registration are pretty dang slim.

[hollohas]

There is no way it can be enforced it it's current form.

The only thing that could happen is LEOs can setup stings to try and catch people breaking the law.

^This is what I see happening.

[merl]

^This is what I see happening.

only in a few widely publicized cases. the penalty is just too small to be worth doing often.

[hatidua]

I have a really difficult time thinking that fathers (or mothers) in the future, are going to make their children go down and fill out a 4473 for a gun that's been in the family for the past few generations. Politicians can dream but it's simply not going to universally happen.

[cysoto]

I have a really difficult time thinking that fathers (or mothers) in the future, are going to make their children go down and fill out a 4473 for a gun that's been in the family for the past few generations.

It is my understanding that, as currently written, this law would allow firearms to be gifted to immediate family members; which it then goes on to describe as parents, grandparents and siblings.

[T.rexford]

Its completely unenforceable. Not to mention it is actually denying a right for alot of people in our state. Not everybody lives in Denver or Csprings and has access to FFL's easily. Some people will need to drive a very long time before they can get to an FFL.

Enough of my off topic rambling. Its unenforceable and I believe that is actually their goal. To put out an unenforceable law. That way they can show its failing and then the only solution is to create registration. Its a simple stepping stone tactic.

[cysoto]

Its unenforceable and I believe that is actually their goal. To put out an unenforceable law. That way they can show its failing and then the only solution is to create registration. Its a simple stepping stone tactic.

I am not much of a conspiracy theorist but I was beginning to think that I was the only person who thought that this may be the ultimate goal of our current administration.

[T.rexford]

I am not much of a conspiracy theorist but I was beginning to think that I was the only person who thought that this may be the ultimate goal of our current administration.

I hear ya. I do my best to not buy into conspiracy theories but what the hell else could it be? Alot of these liberals are not idiots. I can't chalk up all of the stuff that is going on around the country to simple idiocy. It doesn't add up when you do. So the answer has to be something deeper.

Then again maybe I'm just going crazy...

[newracer]

They have already admitted that most of these bills are steps to more legislation. Fields admitted it during one of the testimonies.

[Bowtie]

The Justice Dept Internal memo titled Summary of Select Firearm Violence Prevention Strategies says the success of universal background checks would depend in part on "requiring gun registration,"

The memo can be seen here

http://coloradoliberty.org/blog/2013/02/24/summary-of-select-firearm-violence-prevention-strategies/


The NRA is using this memo for ads in other states.

[hollohas]

only in a few widely publicized cases. the penalty is just too small to be worth doing often.

Prostitution stings are relatively frequent with a minor punishment. And they hate guns (and scary assault mags) far more than they hate Johns.

[ghettoblaster]

Prostitution stings are relatively frequent with a minor punishment. And they hate guns (and scary assault mags) far more than they hate Johns.

soooo all I gotta do is make my sure my ho is carrying the gun when the cops bust down the door..... GOT IT! [Beer]