A question for the LE folks out there.

[RYAN50BMG]

I,m watching TRU tv (I don't know why) and there is a video of this cop getting his ass kicked by three dudes. He's holding his own but if one of them picks up a weapon, or the cop goes to the ground, it's game over.The cop then looses his baton or flashlight, hard to tell on the video, and decides to keep one hand on his gun so he does not loose that. Meanwhile I'm SCREAMING at the tv. Finally backup arrives and perps are taken down after a foot chase. My question is this: Holy Jesus, how many dudes have to be beating on you before you draw your weapon and defend yourself? I,m not LE, but I carry a gun at work and know the rules for lethal force, and there would have been three dead MFers. I,ll take my chances in the courts, but at least I would have went home that night.

[HunterCO]

Ryan

You must remember that in the end the ACLU, The Media or god knows who else would call "Police Brutality" and claim it was an unjustified shooting. "Their baby was so gental" he was just confused and the cop shot him in cold blood.

I am not a cop either but this country is so out of control with PC BS I am surprised anybody even wants to be a cop. Then of course when there "Baby" gets killed for being a gang banger then the cops are worthless because they did not do their job and save their gang banger "baby".

In my opinion and having many family members in LE cops can't win for loseing. It does not matter what they do some jackass will hold them at fault. In my 40 years on this earth I have NEVER had a police officer throw me to the ground, taze me, threaten me, shoot me, club me, disarm me or anything else although I have had a few tickets and got arrested once (teenage dumbass). Every ticket I ever got as well as my arrest was 100% justified and they just did their job.

I agree with you 100% that if three guys attacked me they are heading for the coroners office. The rules cops have to play by is much different than us we have more lee way if you will than them in certain circumstances. They also have more lee way than us in certain circumstances.

Just my .02

Tim

[RYAN50BMG]

In the video, a uniformed officer is getting pounded by three dudes and is WELL within the criteria to draw his weapon, but does not, even though he has his hand on it so it won't get taken away. I don't understand what he was waiting for, someone to really, really lay the smack down. If he draws his weapon and does not get compliance, then it continues to escalate up the force continume, but he does not even draw down. I was hoping someone could enlighten me before I get a sore throat screaming "shoot 'em".

[Colorado Osprey]

There is a chance that officer saw or did something in the past that caused him to maintain control of his weapon instead of using it.
Did you know that someone with training can stab you with a knife starting from over 20 feet away when you already have a handgun pointed at them?
Now put in a few more perps in the equation and it could be deadlier to draw your weapon as there is a more likey chance it will be used against you.

There are lot of things that arre constantly going through an officers head.

Here is something to ponder:

When God Made Peace Officers
...by anonymous...

When the Lord was creating peace officers, he was into his sixth day of overtime when an angel appeared and said, "You're doing a lot of fiddling around on this one."

And the Lord said, "Have you read the spec on this order? A peace officer has to be able to run five miles through alleys in the dark, scale walls, enter homes the health inspector wouldn't touch, and not wrinkle his uniform.

"He has to be able to sit in an undercover car all day on a stakeout, cover a homicide scene that night, canvass the neighborhood for witnesses, and testify in court the next day.

"He has to be in top physical condition at all times, running on black coffee and half-eaten meals. And he has to have six pairs of hands."

The angel shook her head slowly and said, "Six pairs of hands... no way."

"It's not the hands that are causing me problems," said the Lord, "It's the three pairs of eyes an officer has to have."

"That's on the standard model?" asked the angel.

The Lord nodded. One pair that sees through a bulge in a pocket before he asks, "May I see what's in there, sir?" (When he already knows and wishes he'd taken that accounting job.) "Another pair here in the side of his head for his partners' safety. And another pair of eyes here in front that can look reassuringly at a bleeding victim and say, 'You'll be all right ma'am, when he knows it isn't so."

"Lord," said the angel, touching his sleeve, "rest and work on this tomorrow."

"I can't," said the Lord, "I already have a model that can talk a 250 pound drunk into a patrol car without incident and feed a family of five on a civil service paycheck."

The angel circled the model of the peace officer very slowly, "Can it think?" she asked.

"You bet," said the Lord. "It can tell you the elements of a hundred crimes; recite Miranda warnings in its sleep; detain, investigate, search, and arrest a gang member on the street in less time than it takes five learned judges to debate the legality of the stop... and still it keeps its sense of humor. This officer also has phenomenal personal control. He can deal with crime scenes painted in hell, coax a confession from a child abuser, comfort a murder victim's family, and then read in the daily paper how law enforcement isn't sensitive to the rights of criminal suspects."

Finally, the angel bent over and ran her finger across the cheek of the peace officer. "There's a leak," she pronounced. "I told you that you were trying to put too much into this model."

"That's not a leak," said the lord, "it's a tear."

"What's the tear for?" asked the angel.

"It's for bottled-up emotions, for fallen comrades, for commitment to that funny piece of cloth called the American flag, for justice."

"You're a genius," said the angel.

The Lord looked somber. "I didn't put it there," he said.

[Brandon]

Sorry if this is a repost in the past 3 posts but they were really long for my short attention span.

There's a vid where 2 asshats attack a cop, they were driving a little pickup with a shell. they first try to physically take the cop and he throws them both to the ground. then they grab a shovel from the bed and he responds with a baton or something. then I'm not sure if they grab a gun or what but he FINALLY draws too. it was crazy IMO

[Colorado Osprey]

There is another long poem in law enforment that goes something like this:

They give me a wonderful uniform, but if it is not tight and pressed I get suspended.
They give me a police cruiser, but if it ever gets scratched or damaged I get suspended.
They give me a baton, but if I strike somebody I get suspended.
They teach me to drive fast, but if I speed I get suspended.
They give me pepper spray, but if I need to use it I get suspended.
They give me training to defend myself, but if I need to use it I get suspended.
They give me a gun to stop someone from hurting others, but if I use it I get suspended.

We all say what we would do... heck even police do.
The problem comes from the on going training that goes on to try everything possible 1st before shooting someone. Look how many officers now carry non-leathal alternatives.
This mental battle is going on the same time as the physical battle.
Hopefully the right choice is made and all the good guys go home.

Unfortunately because of our legal system and civil lawsuits the bad guy often becomes the victim or even the good guy and the police become the agressor or bad guy and instead of being suspneded for the items above the officer get fired or they resign on their own.

[Roger]

1) never second-guess the one who was there, 'cause you weren't there and you don't know

2) watch what they do, learn, and be prepared for your turn

3) hope you do better when its your turn, because your turn is coming

4) your career goal is to go home at the end of the day



A month or so ago an officer went to go make an arrest in a very rural part of southern Colorado. He tried to talk to the bad guy and was met with gun fire. The officer kept talking, and not shooting. When it was all over the bad guy went to jail and everyone went home. That's what the public wants and demands of us.

They don't care that at the end of the event there were approximately 26 bullet holes in the officer's car. They don't care that the bad guy had six guns and had officers pinned down for hours. The officer's cover was a long way away, and it took almost two hours for the closest SWAT team to get there. The officer never fired his gun. None of the officers did. It is easy to second guess this one, but we weren't there so I won't.

So although me have our own opinions of this kind of stuff, the bottom line is this. Only the officer in the scrap can decide what to do. And you will never know what a jury will say until they say it. Just remember that the bad guy is innocent until proven guilty, and the officer is guilty until proven innocent. We may not like it, but that's our system.

And it does do a lot to explain why a lot of officers hesitate to use any physical force at all.

[PoPo]

[mightymouse]

I asked Heather about it and her reply to me was that if you're in a mixup like that and at that range, pulling your firearm is a bad idea. She said that you're far more prone to having the weapon grabbed, or in the scuffle it being out of battery or malf'ing after the first trigger pull.

If you can create distance, great, if not, bad idea.

[ssf467]

He thought an ass whoopin's better than a casket. Some times the good guys get their butts kicked.
Had he felt he was going out he may have tried to use his sidearm.

[Roger]

Did he have any less lethal options on him? Taser, OC, baton, anything? There are times where guns just don't work. At least in the civilian LE world.

I just renewed my taser instructor last week. We got to play around with the new Taser 12 gauge round. A five second Taser ride hurts, but getting hit with the 12 gauge Taser round is really gonna suck.

I suspect if we get them in time we'll take them to the DNC in August. Talk about a crowd control tool. Step out with a 12 gauge, pop off a round, watch the perp drop, and see what reaction the crowd around him has.

[RYAN50BMG]

I know he had a baton, cause he lost it. On to the cool stuff, are those shotgun rounds as cool as I have read about? I heard they cost 100$ each. I want one, just one.

[Roger]

Depending on department policy, and no they aren't all the same, losing your baton to a bad guy could be justification for using deadly force. (Or remedial training with your baton.)

There are several cases to back that up. Back in the PR-24 days, the PR could be considered an offensive and deadly weapon. As a result if you lost your PR to a bad guy you could shoot him.

There is at least one case in Colorado of a bad guy getting shot when he took an officer's Taser.

Unfortunately too much of US law enforcement training is predicated on being reactionary. Hesitation is inbred. Its part of our genetic code. It has been put there through fear, intimidation, and litigation. I'm not saying all hesitation is bad, but there does come a point where you need to fight back. I guess he wasn't there yet. Although quite frankly I don't know if he ever would have been.


Go to the Taser web page. www.taser.com (http://www.taser.com)

Search for the XREP. That is the shotgun round. Search for the Shockwave. Imagine a claymore mine that deploys multiple Taser cartridges.

The video may be titled future weapons as they are not actually deployed yet. Although I suspect they will be close to home very soon.

The XREP is slated to be $100 a round. (Department price on a Taser X-26 is around $800) There are some training rounds in development that do not function like a Taser but that will give the shotgun operator a chance to practice marksmanship with the round. Taser is teaming up with Mossberg to make a Taser specific shotgun with lots of rails and yellow paint. If the XREP is as good as the hype, they will be a great new tool in the box.

[Sucka]

Saw the same episode i think you're talking about (crisis point?), i also was wondering why he wasn't shooting. If i were in that situation, after being spit on and then beaten, you can bet your ass there would have been 3 suspects down on the ground as i called for an ambulance.

[RYAN50BMG]

I would hate to see the report you would have to file reporting that you shot someone with a 100$ round of ammunition. "There I was, this is no s#!t, Godzilla..."

[recon1976]

[Search for the XREP. That is the shotgun round. Search for the Shockwave. Imagine a claymore mine that deploys multiple Taser cartridges.


Did someone mention a claymore????

I'm gonna have to have one of those, You know for "home protection".
Does that come with mounts for the front of a patrol car, or maybe my jeep?

[TheSparkens]

Recently an off duty Arapahoe county sheriff was beat bad and before he went out, shoots and killed the person beating him. He was found to be justified. This was a road rage incident.

[B2crawler]

Did you see the one where there was the 250 lb nekid guy trying to beat down the door to a day care. Lady cop seriously got beaten and had distance to pull her gun after he pulled out the tazer. Another one where your screaming your head off at the TV. It looked to me like the lady was afraid to draw her gun and use it. I think she got beaten so bad it ended her days in LE.

Or....the one in Texas where some guy tried to knife the cop at a traffic stop. Cop did draw his .45 and shot the guy in the gut. Even the cop was shocked the guy didn't drop. He actually continued to resist arrest and complain about being shot.

As to the So. Colorado story I'd like to know details like if there were kids or some kind of hostages in the house keeping them from returning fire. Some guy who puts near 30 holes in a cop car doesn't need to be among the rest of us ever. Police should have had every right to do us a favor and be rid of that guy.