View Full Version : Discussion for all the internet lawyers regarding possible mag limits and state lines.
My first thought is F**K EM.
However, I pose a Hypothetical question.
How could either a WY or CO LEO be justified to make an arrest for a mag limit violation if someone were purchasing mags in WY and driving back across state lines?
Here's the way I see it, certainly open to interpretation.
WY has no obligation to enforce or jurisdiction over CO law and there is no WY law being broken. (I seriously doubt any WY LE would cooperate with any CO "sting.")
CO has no jurisdiction inside WY so any "stake out" there would be illegal IMHO. Hence, any search (you know you don't consent to searches right?) is illegal. I suppose if you were within sight of the state line, purchasing out of doors, you could be observed by an LE sitting in CO, but that's unlikely to occur.
Discuss.
Fireworks that shoot in the air or explode are illegal in colorado yet i see tons of them around the 4th of july.
Fireworks that shoot in the air or explode are illegal in colorado yet i see tons of them around the 4th of july.
Meth is illegal also, I'm sure that wouldn't be to hard to get either.
airborneranger
03-04-2013, 01:46
Fireworks that shoot in the air or explode are illegal in colorado yet i see tons of them around the 4th of july.
I am originally from KY where fireworks are not legal. I remember when Indiana became a state with legal fireworks. The KY State patrol would sit on the KY side of the bridge and pull folks over in search of illegal fireworks.
I am not saying that would happen in Colorado but it certainly has happened in the past.
I am originally from KY where fireworks are not legal. I remember when Indiana became a state with legal fireworks. The KY State patrol would sit on the KY side of the bridge and pull folks over in search of illegal fireworks.
I am not saying that would happen in Colorado but it certainly has happened in the past.
I remember as a kid in NY everyone would go across to Pa. and get fireworks,same thing..Eventualy those shops by the boder closed due to lack of customers..
I wouldn't put it past the PTB to do the same with so called "safety" checks...
GilpinGuy
03-04-2013, 01:51
I speed every time I cross the state line.
Seriously though, if they happened to find some mags in your car during a search, I'm not sure how they could prove a damn thing as far as where and when you bought them. Maybe if a mag had a date stamp on it from after the ban they could bust you? Depends on how the final law is written I suppose.
GilpinGuy
03-04-2013, 01:51
I remember as a kid in NY everyone would go across to Pa. and get fireworks,same thing.They see NY plates and pull you over.Eventualy those shops by the boder closed due to lack of customers..
We'd go to PA to buy Everclear too. Good times....
We'd go to PA to buy Everclear too. Good times....
Funny ,I remember the Ct guys dashing across the NY border to get to the Bum Steer cause they close the bars at midnight(insert wavy flashback scene)Ah the ole days.....[Coffee]
Seriously though, if they happened to find some mags in your car during a search, I'm not sure how they could prove a damn thing as far as where and when you bought them.
If they are stopping cars and conducting warrantless searches "on suspicion of being suspicious" . . . and those searches are being upheld as fine and dandy . . . that means evidence seized is permissible in court . . . and that means it does not matter if those mags are technically legal or not. When one right is lost, it very quickly becomes a domino effect and the others quickly follow, including things like due process, appeals, jury trials, civilian oversight. In police states like NY, IL, NJ, MA, the cops and courts do whatever they like and usually get away with it . . . and the media is curiously silent.
Busta Prima
03-04-2013, 02:16
Magpul needs to stop date stamping them. As much as they care about us over these moron politicians, I can't imagine that once they settle in to their new location and set up the machinery that they would continue date stamping of any kind. Second, never consent to a search of your vehicle, ever, for this or anything else. If they impound the vehicle and do it anyway, say nothing without a lawyer.
Now maybe folks who like saying "search me, I have nothing to hide" can see the value of how the other amendments work to protect people.
Third, go get your mags (or fireworks or whatever) then continue north, have lunch somewhere, then come back on a quieter road.
clublights
03-04-2013, 03:44
I've "heard" of folks getting busted doing fireworks runs .. but that only seems to happen very close to the 4th of july..... go buy them in march .. no issue..
I doubt CSP can afford the man power to keep up 365 days a year.
Bailey Guns
03-04-2013, 06:16
I can't imagine anyone wanting to knowingly violate the proposed magazine law since it's designed to make us all safer. Foolhardy to even think about.
kidicarus13
03-04-2013, 06:34
Holy hell, how many mags do you people need to last the rest of your life? Mags aren't like fireworks or a fifth of Everclear, they last a lot longer than one range session. I'm sure any CO resident would be able to amass a 100+ PMAGs between now and 07.01.13 if that's what they want to do.
I'm not concerned about AR mags at all, more concerned about other specialized/ handgun mags. But that's just me being selfish, have enough to last my lifetime.
But... anyone that turns 18/21 next year and wants an AR or Glock 17 is going to have a tough time getting mags. In 18 years it'll be obvious anyone 18- with one has them illegally. This is AWB lite, they knew the votes were not there to outright ban any weapons so they demonized mags.
Of course this doesn't apply to criminals, a stolen gun usually comes with a stolen mag or 2.
And Audrey has it right on how to enforce. Setup a week and bust a few people, hype it, then repeat in 2 years.
baglock1
03-04-2013, 08:11
Many, many moons ago I had planned on becoming a cop. After getting a 2-yr degree in Admin of Criminal Justice at the local CC (back in AZ), I decided it wasn't for me. My responses below are based on that ~20 year old education.
CO has no jurisdiction inside WY so any "stake out" there would be illegal IMHO.
I don't believe it would be illegal so long as they weren't stopping anyone on the WY side. They could gather information all they want and don't even have an obligation to inform WY LEO (although it would probably be done out of professional courtesy). LEO conducts investigations across state lines all the time.
Colorado can hire "civilian informants" to go follow people across the border and report back what they are doing. Since a "civilian" reporting something bypasses and circumvents many search and seizure laws and requirements for a warrant, this could get quite nasty in the future, if these laws are passed and put into effect.
By law, any agent (civilian or otherwise) acting on behalf of LE is subject to the same requirements for searches and seizures. For example, a cop has a buddy who lives across the street from a suspect. The cop asks buddy to go over to his neighbor's house and walk through (as a guest) looking for evidence. Buddy then reports what he has seen back to the cop. This is an illegal search and any "fruit of the poisonous tree" would be inadmissible in court. Of course that's little consolation after LE has come in and conducted a search and confiscated all your EBGs anyways. The hope is that the judge who signed the search warrant would recognize that it was an illegal search to begin with.
Magpul needs to stop date stamping them.
This^^^^^. I still don't see a really good reason to date stamp since there's no requirement AFAIK. BUT, if there is a good reason, potential passage of this new legislation would seem to be reason enough to STOP stamping.
They don't enforce the gun laws that are on the books now what makes you think they will enforce these?
spqrzilla
03-04-2013, 08:25
Magpul needs to date stamp their magazines to track the wear on their molds. If a Federal ban is passed, then they will need to code their magazines for sale to LEO and military. So you are not going to see Magpul change that in all probability.
Great-Kazoo
03-04-2013, 08:26
This^^^^^. I still don't see a really good reason to date stamp since there's no requirement AFAIK. BUT, if there is a good reason, potential passage of this new legislation would seem to be reason enough to STOP stamping.
CA, Mass NY (until jan) CT do not allow mags mfg after 9/94 Hence the original markings of
LE/MILITARY RESTRICTED stamped on the AR mag body.
They do however allow Mag rebuild kits, Providing you can show the damaged body you replaced it with, go figure.
Fireworks that shoot in the air or explode are illegal in colorado yet i see tons of them around the 4th of july.
Nice first thread repsonse completely off topic. Then the following replies go full retard about fireworks. [ROFL1]
I speed every time I cross the state line.
Seriously though, if they happened to find some mags in your car during a search, I'm not sure how they could prove a damn thing as far as where and when you bought them. Maybe if a mag had a date stamp on it from after the ban they could bust you? Depends on how the final law is written I suppose.
Speeding is illegal in every state. Don't ever consent to a search. Yea, I know they have BS ways to trick you or made up reasonable cause, but the first defense is to never consent to a search.
welp, a few years ago here in Tennessee, there was a big tax hike on cigarettes. so high, that it drove people to the point of driving up to Bowling Green and even as far as Paducah in search of cheaper prices on carton's of cigarettes. They would buy several cartons and go back to Tennessee. TN Dept of Revenue soon caught on that this was going on (not sure how, probably someone ratting on people), and they started staking out these people and gas stations across the border. They'd go monitor gas stations and what not and have people in the stores as "customers", who would radio outside to the unit, that unit was usually in a completely unmarked and plain vehicle with normal TN tags on it, and that would guy would call ahead on a cell phone to a trooper sitting on the TN border side with description of the person, plate and tag #, the trooper would then pull over the unsuspecting offender, and arresting them! in some cases, seizing their freaking cars!
http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2007/sep/27/cigarette-surveillance-program-begins-today/
Colorado can hire "civilian informants" to go follow people across the border and report back what they are doing. Since a "civilian" reporting something bypasses and circumvents many search and seizure laws and requirements for a warrant, this could get quite nasty in the future, if these laws are passed and put into effect.
That's about lost tax revenue, and our governments are always looking for ways to jack the average taxpayer. How would Colorado fund a program to prevent a hollow piece of plastic from illegally entering the state?
I've "heard" of folks getting busted doing fireworks runs .. but that only seems to happen very close to the 4th of july..... go buy them in march .. no issue..
I doubt CSP can afford the man power to keep up 365 days a year.
This is part of the problem enforcing it, where do the funds come from to do so?
Holy hell, how many mags do you people need to last the rest of your life? Mags aren't like fireworks or a fifth of Everclear, they last a lot longer than one range session. I'm sure any CO resident would be able to amass a 100+ PMAGs between now and 07.01.13 if that's what they want to do.
Miss the "Hypothetical" part? I don't need the mags, I'm more interested in the legality of the topic.
ChunkyMonkey
03-04-2013, 10:13
Treat me like a criminal.. maybe I should think like one.
This is part of the problem enforcing it, where do the funds come from to do so?
penalties and fines if they catch folks?
tack on a $1 enforcement fee on every sale of a firearm?
start a fear campaign that we cannot afford to enforce our laws and raise taxes (much like the school fear campaign).
plenty of ways to find money for law enforcement.
Holy hell, how many mags do you people need to last the rest of your life? Mags aren't like fireworks or a fifth of Everclear, they last a lot longer than one range session. I'm sure any CO resident would be able to amass a 100+ PMAGs between now and 07.01.13 if that's what they want to do.
Really? Apparently you haven't attempted to buy any PMAGs recently... Some of us don't want to buy PMAGs for $60+, and with them being so badly backordered it would seem that anyone wanting Gen3 windowed PMAGs in this state will probably be SOL.
buckshotbarlow
03-04-2013, 10:27
Really? Apparently you haven't attempted to buy any PMAGs recently... Some of us don't want to buy PMAGs for $60+, and with them being so badly backordered it would seem that anyone wanting Gen3 windowed PMAGs in this state will probably be SOL.
neve's has them for 22$ windowed and 20$ for non windowed...
Kraven251
03-04-2013, 11:04
If you were to buy them out of state and then bring them back to CO ...just disassemble them. The current way that crap-tacular law is written up it isn't limiting unassembled kits.
You would be legal until you put them back together. Transportation problem solved, problem staying solved.
Goodburbon
03-04-2013, 11:08
I cross state lines with Mags all the time.
ETA
I'm not adjusting my normal practices to adhere to someone else's sudden determination that I may be a criminal for such behavior.
Learn this phrase: "I'm not consenting to any searches." Rinse and repeat.
People who get caught by these "gotcha" laws make the mistake of allowing a search. Driving across the border is not reasonable suspicion for a search. Refusing a search is not reasonable suspicion for a search. Decline the search, accept a ticket if the officer wants to write you one for speeding or whatnot, and move on.
That having been said, other alternatives are:
a) stock up on mags prior to 7/1;
b) don't do something so obvious as drive up to a borderside magazine stand (ha!) and buy stuff then cross back over.
Learn this phrase: "I'm not consenting to any searches." Rinse and repeat.
People who get caught by these "gotcha" laws make the mistake of allowing a search. Driving across the border is not reasonable suspicion for a search. Refusing a search is not reasonable suspicion for a search. Decline the search, accept a ticket if the officer wants to write you one for speeding or whatnot, and move on.
That having been said, other alternatives are:
a) stock up on mags prior to 7/1;
b) don't do something so obvious as drive up to a borderside magazine stand (ha!) and buy stuff then cross back over.
Yup, there's going to be "Whistling Pete's Fireworks & Magazines" stands across the border!
I think we are missing the big picture. About six months ago conversations like this would have been about "Bootleg Pot" now it's about "Bootleg Mags". I don't think the states around us are going to assist in any way when it comes to "mag bootlegging". These states will be too pissed off that pot is going into there state from our state. It seems to me that the mag ban, for now, is more about selling them in this state rather than possessing them. This is going to be a law to lock up a homeowner that uses a 30rd mag to defend themselves. These laws will eventually scare everybody into giving up there "Assault Weapon's, remember socialism is about slow incremental/generational change. Everyone of these gun laws is just to get a foothold, each law will then be modified. A mag capacity and possession law can be modified when they decide "it's not working". They will confiscate assault weapon's now that they have an AW definition in the laws and "it's not working". They will know who has weapons because the background check will need to have registration added because "it's not working". One day in schools around this country little children will be telling there teacher "My grandpa was a criminal he had illegal guns and the government had to kill him". Those same little children will not even know what a 30rd mag was. I think I mentioned this already, socialism and communism is about slow incremental generational change, they will get us there eventually. There is a reason that 1 billion Chinese have never invaded this country, we have the largest standing army in the world, 300 million well armed citizens.
Nice first thread repsonse completely off topic. Then the following replies go full retard about fireworks. [ROFL1]
.
Im just saying...this takes skill
Learn this phrase: "I'm not consenting to any searches." Rinse and repeat.
People who get caught by these "gotcha" laws make the mistake of allowing a search. Driving across the border is not reasonable suspicion for a search. Refusing a search is not reasonable suspicion for a search. Decline the search, accept a ticket if the officer wants to write you one for speeding or whatnot, and move on.
Uh . . . you clearly do not understand the nature of an unlawful vehicle search as conduced in a police state. We do not, now, have a police state in Colorado. Vehicle searches are rare here, absent a crime having been committed and reported, giving probable cause. In NY, IL, NJ, and DC things are different. A cop pulls you over for a minor offense or no reason at all, then asks if you will exit the vehicle and consent to a search. If you refuse, he will not let you go. If you drive away you will probably be shot. One of two things will happen. Either you will be ordered out of the car at gunpoint and proned out on the side of the road and cuffed, or, if you get a good cop, you will be forced to wait for over an hour until a supervisor and a K9 unit show up, then be lectured for another hour about "wasting time and resources" while flashlights are shined in every window and under your car and it is circled by the K9 . . . and if that dog barks (simple hand signal) they now have reasonable cause for a search.
Oh, have fun spending over $50K to sue them in court. It will be the word of several policemen against yours, and in a police state the policeman's word carries a lot more weight and is rarely questioned.
Colorado is not like that yet. Even the infamous DPD do not act in such a manner. NYPD and NYSP play by an entirely different set of rules . . . and they have the full support of the courts and politicians. Your "Constitutional rights" are void in states that do not recognize them, and such searches have been upheld when challenged.
Clint, just FYI- I went on a ride along with a JCSO K-9 deputy back in '06... EVERY stop he asked if he could search the vehicle (4 traffic stops). Now, granted, all 4 stops involved a seizure of MJ and a citation for small amount possession, but still, when they ask at every stop (and consent is stupidly given) then I'd say vehicle searches are not rare. I'm asked frequently if they can search my car- although last traffic stop was in '10 and he didn't, I'd say of the 10 times either I personally or I had been in the car for a stop, 7 of them requested to search and consent given on 4 (two by me).
kidicarus13
03-04-2013, 15:30
When a police K-9 can detect magazines I'll start to worry about crossing state lines with magazines purchased out of state. Until then I'll just say "No" to voluntary searches.
When a police K-9 can detect magazines I'll start to worry about crossing state lines with magazines purchased out of state. Until then I'll just say "No" to voluntary searches.
If the K9 alerts on your car, that is probable cause to search. Some K9s are trained to "alert" if given a hand signal.
It is like a polygraph examiner who tweaks the results so the readings spike . . . it does not matter if you are telling the truth . . . if the machine indicates a "lie", then you lied.
Common excuses for conducting a search include: "He made a furtive movement," or "I smelled the odor of marijuana," . . . and all that means is it is the cop's word against yours.
hghclsswhitetrsh
03-04-2013, 16:21
When a police K-9 can detect magazines I'll start to worry about crossing state lines with magazines purchased out of state. Until then I'll just say "No" to voluntary searches.
Theres dogs that can specifically sniff out bed bugs. Shouldn't be an issue.
Great-Kazoo
03-04-2013, 16:55
Theres dogs that can specifically sniff out bed bugs. Shouldn't be an issue.
And there is also not enough funding (for now) to be worried about gun magazine "smugglers" a comin across da wyo border Whooping and A Hollerin, Hollerin and a Whooping.
I'm picturing Burt Reynolds jumping his car off a conveniently-placed ramp across the state line, yelling something witty like, "yeehaw", a few PMAGs spilling out of a trunk packed full of them. With thirty or so cop cars in hot pursuit, citizens and sparkly-eyed girls and boys cheering his triumphant return to Colorado.
kidicarus13
03-04-2013, 17:19
Theres dogs that can specifically sniff out bed bugs. Shouldn't be an issue.
I don't load my firearms with bed bugs so I should be good. That was a joke, I understand your inference. Assuming in the future I do cross state borders with _____ in my vehicle, I'll take my chances.
KestrelBike
03-04-2013, 19:44
Magpul needs to stop date stamping them. As much as they care about us over these moron politicians, I can't imagine that once they settle in to their new location and set up the machinery that they would continue date stamping of any kind. Second, never consent to a search of your vehicle, ever, for this or anything else. If they impound the vehicle and do it anyway, say nothing without a lawyer.
Now maybe folks who like saying "search me, I have nothing to hide" can see the value of how the other amendments work to protect people.
Third, go get your mags (or fireworks or whatever) then continue north, have lunch somewhere, then come back on a quieter road.
Or Magpul could just freeze in time their date-stamping to the day that it was signed into law (and theoretically still had time to make it to retailer, then be sold to the consumer in question).
KestrelBike
03-04-2013, 19:49
If the K9 alerts on your car, that is probable cause to search. Some K9s are trained to "alert" if given a hand signal.
Wow if true, that's pretty f'in bulls***
hammer03
03-04-2013, 21:13
From Magpul's facebook page:
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/644294_567303733281980_976172051_n.jpg
Theres dogs that can specifically sniff out bed bugs. Shouldn't be an issue.
Hopps no 9 ruin a dogs sniffer for a week
And there is also not enough funding (for now) to be worried about gun magazine "smugglers" a comin across da wyo border Whooping and A Hollerin, Hollerin and a Whooping.
What in the wide, wide world... never mind.
I'm picturing Burt Reynolds jumping his car off a conveniently-placed ramp across the state line, yelling something witty like, "yeehaw", a few PMAGs spilling out of a trunk packed full of them. With thirty or so cop cars in hot pursuit, citizens and sparkly-eyed girls and boys cheering his triumphant return to Colorado.
The General Lee chased by Roscoe P Coaltrain
Great-Kazoo
03-05-2013, 08:35
What in the wide, wide world... never mind.
I get no kicks from champagne.......................
I've "heard" of folks getting busted doing fireworks runs .. but that only seems to happen very close to the 4th of july..... go buy them in march .. no issue..
I doubt CSP can afford the man power to keep up 365 days a year.
I'm one of the people that brings over fireworks from Wyoming. The first year I made a run over I was driving a 95 Mitsubishi Eclipse. As I'm sure you're aware there's not a lot of room to store things in those cars. I had fireworks piled so high you couldn't see out the back window and anyone looking in could obviously see the fireworks. I didn't have any problems that year and I never got pulled over.
The year before last I made a run to Cheyenne on the 4th. A few friends chipped in some last minute cash so I hopped in the car and headed up. Half way to Cheyenne one of my friends called and said to be careful because they heard the state patrol was watching people leave the firework stores and pulling them over the minute they got on the Colorado side so they could confiscate the fireworks. I didn't see a single trooper within 50 miles of the border coming or going.
After more than a decade of making Wyoming fireworks runs I honestly believe the stories you hear are nothing more than BS stories.
The last few years I've gone up I've kept my cell phone at the ready so that in the event I was pulled over I could record my interaction with the LEO that stopped me. If you are not breaking the law the LEO has no right to stop you. If you do not give probable cause the LEO has no right to search your vehicle. Randomly pulling over someone who is breaking no laws in order to search their vehicle without probable cause because they just drove over the boarder is 100% illegal.
Great-Kazoo
03-05-2013, 10:05
I'm one of the people that brings over fireworks from Wyoming. The first year I made a run over I was driving a 95 Mitsubishi Eclipse. As I'm sure you're aware there's not a lot of room to store things in those cars. I had fireworks piled so high you couldn't see out the back window and anyone looking in could obviously see the fireworks. I didn't have any problems that year and I never got pulled over.
The year before last I made a run to Cheyenne on the 4th. A few friends chipped in some last minute cash so I hopped in the car and headed up. Half way to Cheyenne one of my friends called and said to be careful because they heard the state patrol was watching people leave the firework stores and pulling them over the minute they got on the Colorado side so they could confiscate the fireworks. I didn't see a single trooper within 50 miles of the border coming or going.
After more than a decade of making Wyoming fireworks runs I honestly believe the stories you hear are nothing more than BS stories.
The last few years I've gone up I've kept my cell phone at the ready so that in the event I was pulled over I could record my interaction with the LEO that stopped me. If you are not breaking the law the LEO has no right to stop you. If you do not give probable cause the LEO has no right to search your vehicle. Randomly pulling over someone who is breaking no laws in order to search their vehicle without probable cause because they just drove over the boarder is 100% illegal.
[LOL] Green / CO tags between June-Aug is reasonable suspicion when crossing back from wyo for potential transportation of Illegal fireworks.
Profile is usually younger males [under 40] and or vehicles that a CSP LCSO or WCSO had pass them with in a 1-2 hr period.
If you are not breaking the law the LEO has no right to stop you. If you do not give probable cause the LEO has no right to search your vehicle. Randomly pulling over someone who is breaking no laws in order to search their vehicle without probable cause because they just drove over the boarder is 100% illegal.
But it happens. I hear about people with Colorado plates heading East getting pulled over on suspicion of transporting marijuana because they are driving a beater vehicle with certain bumperstickers and are in their 20s.
I'm picturing Burt Reynolds jumping his car off a conveniently-placed ramp across the state line, yelling something witty like, "yeehaw", a few PMAGs spilling out of a trunk packed full of them. With thirty or so cop cars in hot pursuit, citizens and sparkly-eyed girls and boys cheering his triumphant return to Colorado.
The General Lee chased by Roscoe P Coaltrain
I was thinking just some good ol boys, never meaning no harm... Smuggling boxes of PMAGs in the trunk of the General Lee. [LOL]
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