View Full Version : Christians on the board...
Ok, so I have a question for the fellow Christians on the board. First, let me offer this disclaimer: I am NOT in any way claiming to be representing or speaking on behalf of my religious constituency - my behavior, thought patterns, general paranoia/animosity, and rabid anti-gov't views are often times in direct conflict with some of the tenets of Christian faith. I drink, I cuss like a sailor, and am one of those frothing gun-nuts the liberals are so afraid of. I also believe that God will convict me to change the things about myself which are most important to Him. Which is where I derive my question...
How (or do) you reconcile what the Bible has to say re: submitting to governmental authority, turning the other cheek, not inciting/engaging in violent thoughts or actions etc, with the views I know most of us on the board hold re: anti-governmentalism, self-defense, and general ideas of how we'd react to noxious criminal or governmental encroaches on our pursuit of life/liberty?
I believe in all of the core aspects of protestant Christianity, ie: sin, salvation, Christ's divinity, Biblical inerrancy/inspiration, end times etc.
On the other hand, I believe that all current world governments are metastatic offshoots of a global, cancerous oligarchy of pure evil. I also believe that I would have not the slightest hesitation in reacting to the fullest extent I am capable of (no need to get gratuitously specific) to a threat against myself, my family, or my property. I also know what side of the fence I will gleefully and wholeheartedly be on when the inevitable coming revolution occurs. (God grant that it be in my lifetime, as I don't believe that subsequent generations will be outraged enough to act on it. I would love to leave things better for my kids.)
I'd really, truly, hopefully like to avoid this turning into a religion vs atheism debate. Thats not the point at all. I believe what I believe, and I don't try to impose my views on anybody else. This is primarily directed at the other people on the board who believe like I do, and have found themselves in a similar dichotomy mentally.
I am struggling with the same question.
i guess it really comes down to who's will are we submitting? ...a lot of prayer involved in this.
Try this on for size and see if it fits. Written by Chuck Baldwin.
I confess right out of the gate that this column is not going to be enjoyable for me to write. It may not be enjoyable for some to read. But the time has come that it has to be said. If Christians truly have any intentions of helping to preserve liberty for their children and grandchildren, they must put rhetoric, tradition, friendship, and personal feelings aside and take action. Christian: it is time to vote with your feet.
And while many people who never darken the doors of a church love to cast stones at preachers and churches, I have been in the Gospel ministry all of my adult life. I have pastored for over 37 years. I know the inner workings of church work; I personally know hundreds of preachers; I understand how preachers think; I have attended hundreds of church meetings and fellowships, and hundreds of pastors’ conferences and seminars. I know what it’s like to balance a church budget, counsel families in need, stand with a congregation in good times and bad. There isn’t an area of church work with which I am not very familiar. And I can also say that for over 37 years, I have never desired or attempted to harm another man’s ministry. And that is not the intention of this column.
However, the time has come in America to tell it like it is. These are not ordinary times. Our country is on the precipice of tyranny and oppression like we have not seen since the days of Colonial America before our War for Independence. It is no hyperbole to say that what we do–or don’t do–now will determine the state of freedom in America for the next 50 years or more. To make no decision is to decide for tyranny. We can no longer pretend that what we do doesn’t matter.
One of the most glaring differences between Colonial and modern America is the attitude of our pastors.
In 1770-1776 (and actually for many years previous to this period), Colonial pastors (of all denominations) lit the fire of freedom in the hearts of their congregants like no generation has ever seen–before or since. The British Crown was so frustrated with these patriot-pastors that they coined a moniker for them. They were called, “The Black (or Black-Robed) Regiment.” In truth, Colonial pastors were more influential in the “holy cause of liberty” (Patrick Henry) from their pulpits than any military regiment on the battlefield. And, yes, many pastors in Colonial America also fought on the battlefields in our War for Independence.
Today’s pastors, on the other hand, are mostly noted for saying absolutely NOTHING about the attacks that are currently being waged against our liberties. And when I say NOTHING, I mean absolutely NOTHING. About the only thing they seem to be able to do is pass out some slanted “voter guides” every Presidential election. But most don’t even do that. A few (a very few) will encourage their congregations to protest abortion; some (again, a very small number) will preach a “pro-life” sermon on “Sanctity of Life” Sunday each January. But most deliberately and stubbornly refuse to take a public position on any subject that has the air of being “political.”
Should we really wonder why our country is teetering on the precipice of oppression and slavery?
When Bible stories such as Daniel And The Lion’s Den, The Three Hebrew Children And The Burning Fiery Furnace, or the stories of Gideon, Jephthah, and Samson are told, they are taught simply as allegories or explained away as being for “another time.” The practical application of myriads of Bible examples of resistance to tyranny is NEVER TAUGHT in the vast majority of most churches today. NEVER!
I preached a message last Sunday to the people of Liberty Fellowship entitled, “Shepherd Or Hireling?” The text was John 10. To watch the video of this message, go to:
“Shepherd Or Hireling?”
In this chapter, Jesus said, “But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.” (John 10:12, 13 KJV)
Jesus made it clear that the central difference between a true shepherd and a hireling (hired hand) was that the shepherd was willing to fight and die for the protection of the sheep, while the hired hand was not willing to risk his life for the sheep.
Pastors are depicted as being shepherds. Is it not then the central duty of the pastor to be willing to fight and die for the protection of his people? When he sees the wolves approaching, does he run away and leave the sheep to the slaughter or does he confront the wolves and fight to the death to protect them?
Ladies and gentlemen, the wolves are attacking the flock! Those mangy, mad, maniacal monsters are attacking the lives and liberties of the American people (including the Christian people in our churches) with a vengeance. When they attempt to strip us of our right to defend ourselves with arms, they are attacking the very lives and liberties of our homes and families. Life is a precious gift of Almighty God, and anyone who would make our children and families vulnerable to death and destruction by wicked and evil men is tantamount to a mad wolf that attacks the life of a little lamb.
How dare our shepherds (pastors) stand silent and mute in the face of such evil? How dare they refuse to sound the alarm? How dare they piously proclaim that God “has not called” them to perform this most fundamental duty of a shepherd? Does not their refusal to fight, does not their silence, does not their fear and inaction prove that they are not really shepherds at all, but merely hirelings? I believe so.
And knowing that what I am about to say will be misinterpreted by some, I say it still: preaching the Gospel, by itself, will NOT save America. And these preachers who hide behind the mantra that the only thing God has called them to do is preach the Gospel, and that only preaching the Gospel will save America, are either themselves seriously deluded or are despicable cowards hiding behind the veil of pretended spirituality.
America has had more Gospel preaching during the last 50 years than any nation in history. There are more churches, more Christian schools, more Gospel radio and television programs, more missionary endeavors, more inner-city missions and shelters, more Bible publications, and more Gospel influence in America during the last 50 years than in any country in the history of the world.
And what has happened to America over the last 50 years? Our historic Christian culture has been turned into rank hedonism and licentiousness; legal abortion has taken the lives of over 60 million innocent unborn babies; a blatant police-state is proliferating; more babies are being born out of wedlock than at any time in history; and now we are facing the tyrannical attempt to ban and confiscate America’s premier self-defense tool: the semi-automatic rifle. And all of this happened, and is happening, while hundreds of thousands of pastors and churches across the land “preach the Gospel.”
Again I say, preaching the Gospel, by itself, will not save America. Christians have to be taught how to understand; how to discern the difference between good and evil; the principles of law and justice; jurisdictional authority; and the principles of Christian resistance. As long as pastors refrain from teaching these essential and necessary truths, our nation will continue its slide into tyranny and oppression–all the Gospel preaching going forth notwithstanding.
I ask you: if the only thing God expected us to do was preach the Gospel, why did He give us a voluminous Bible, which is filled with examples, principles, teachings, and truths relating to virtually every important area of life? If one takes only those Scriptures that deal specifically with the Gospel, he or she is going to have a very small Bible, my friends. The stories of the Old Testament, for example, were written for “our learning.” (Romans 15:4) Hebrews 11 challenges us with the examples of Old Testament men and women who were “not afraid of the king’s commandment,” who did not fear “the wrath of the king,” who “subdued kingdoms,” “waxed valiant in fight,” and who “turned to flight the armies of the aliens.”
Furthermore, the Apostle Paul spent about as much time in jail as he did out of jail. And, of course, he was thrown in jail for breaking the unjust, evil laws of men. Every apostle except John was killed by tyrannical governments because they refused to submit to unjust laws. How First Century Christians chose to resist versus how free men and women in Colonial America chose to resist is material for another day. The point is, THEY ALL CHOSE TO RESIST.
The story of God’s people, from the beginning of time, is the story of people who refused to submit to tyrannical, unjust laws and chose to “obey God rather than men.” Yet, modern American pastors refuse to resist. They choose to sheepishly comply with the unjust laws of evil, wicked men. And they refuse to be the courageous shepherds for their people. It’s time to say it: any pastor who will not warn his church of the impending tyranny that is sweeping our land, any pastor who refuses to take a stand for the right of the people in his congregation to keep and bear arms–and, therefore, be able to protect the precious gift of life that has been given by God–and any pastor who stands silent while evil men trample the God-given liberties that were purchased at so awful a cost by our Christian forebears must be regarded, not as a shepherd, but as a hireling. It really doesn’t matter how nice he is, or how educated he is, or how charming he is, or how inspirational his sermons are, or how sincere he is: if he refuses to stand and fight the wolves, he is a hireling, not a shepherd.
By the way, to see the list of pastors around the country who have vowed to fight for the right of their flocks to keep and bear arms, go to:
Second Amendment Pastors
It’s time to speak plainly. The time for politeness and timidity is behind us. Any pastor who refuses to take a stand of resistance to the evil forces of tyranny that are now sweeping as a horde of locusts upon us is as guilty of the loss of our nation’s freedoms and liberties as are the evil despots who perpetrate these atrocities. He is as guilty of the death and destruction of his people as the hireling who flees in the face of the wolf is guilty of the death and destruction of the sheep.
Let me ask you a question: would you vote for a legislator or senator who would strip you of your right to keep and bear arms? Would you passively and indifferently continue to support such a one simply because of his or her political party or nice personality or inspirational speeches? Would you not determine such a one to be a dangerous threat to your liberties, and to the safety and security of your children, and reject him or her with your vote? Sure you would. So, why would you continue to support a pastor who facilitates these ravenous beasts?
Christian, it’s time to vote with your feet and leave these silent, sheepish pastors and find a shepherd-pastor who will fight for the lives and liberties of your homes and children.
It’s time for a reality check: if your pastor is not warning the flock, alerting the flock, and fighting for the life and freedom of the flock, he is helping to put the chains of slavery and oppression upon the necks of your children and grandchildren. If he is not engaged in the fight to preserve the liberties of our nation, he is helping to put the chains of slavery and oppression upon the necks of your children and grandchildren. If your pastor refuses to publicly take a stand against the wolves of our land, he is facilitating and enabling those wolves to tear and shred the life and flesh of our country.
As I studied what God said about His shepherds in the Old Testament, I came upon this fascinating passage from the book of Amos: “Thus saith the LORD; As the shepherd taketh out of the mouth of the lion two legs, or a piece of an ear; so shall the children of Israel be taken out that dwell in Samaria in the corner of a bed, and in Damascus in a couch.” (Amos 3:12 KJV)
Do you see the picture of the shepherd God paints in this passage? The shepherd fights for his sheep so fiercely and ferociously that he fights the lion even when the sheep is half-devoured. If he is only able to save two legs or an ear, he fights like a wild man for every part of the sheep. This is how a true shepherd is supposed to fight.
We need pastors to stand up and fight for the lives and liberties of their flock like wild men (figuratively speaking). We need pastors to scratch and claw and bite for every last little bit of life and liberty of our country. Anything less is to wear the mark of a hireling for all eternity.
Christian, cast your vote! Choose a side! The line in the sand is being drawn between liberty and tyranny. Your pastor cannot be neutral, and neither can you!
I dare say that if every Christian across America who, in his or her heart, truly believes in liberty were to flee these say-nothing hirelings and run to shepherds who are genuinely standing for truth and liberty in our land, we could turn the ship of state around almost overnight. This is more important than the “youth program” or “children’s ministry” or “senior-saints program” or “music program,” or nice buildings or “my friends are there,” or any number of other things that so many people seem to think is so important about which church they attend.
Ladies and gentlemen, the survival of our republic is at stake! For God’s sake, and for the sake of your children, don’t just complain, VOTE WITH YOUR FEET!
P.S. Remember, too, that my attorney son and I are now in the process of publishing a blockbuster new book entitled, “To Keep Or Not To Keep: Why Christians Should Not Give Up Their Guns.” This book conclusively shows that nowhere does the Bible teach that God’s people are supposed to sheepishly give up their arms in the face of tyranny. In fact, the Bible teaches just the opposite. This book is absolutely must-reading for every Christian (or non-Christian) who desires to know the truth about what the Bible teaches relative to the right of people to keep and bear arms. We are taking pre-orders now. It’s possible that the first printing of this book will be sold out even before it is printed. Orders are coming in feverishly. If you want a first edition copy of this new book, go to:
Keep Your Arms
(c) Chuck Baldwin
Dingo, you and I are of like mind, and I know there are many more on the forum like us. It's extremely difficult to be a good follower of Christ and I'm a horrible representation of him, that's for sure... That's where his grace proves quite helpful. Since I'm short of time at the moment (I'll try to reply again later today), I'll simply say this.
Along with the convictions and direction you've mentioned above, I'm a believer that the Lord will put an end to all of the chaos when he sees fit. While we should not live with our heads in the sand and entirely rely on blind faith, getting unhealthily wrapped up and concerned about the future of humanity does little to no good. Stay focused on the areas you can impact and be a blessing for your neighbor first, before trying to change the world.
I'll comment back about government, shortly.
ChunkyMonkey
03-06-2013, 10:33
When it comes to right to be free, these two....
"Live as FREE PEOPLE, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God's slaves." Peter 2:16
"But you must be careful so that your freedom does not cause OTHERS with a weaker conscience to stumble." First Corinthians 8:9
When it comes to obeying our govt, look up Psalms 22:28. Take it as you may... this govt is corrupt and ultimately I live my life by the only Book that matters.
I don't feel as if it's a hard question at all. When we submit, we are assuming that it's to a person who is trying to follow Gods will. Our government does not seem too follow that line of thought. So, yes, while we try to respect, obey, etc we still have an obligation to tell them they are in the wrong, etc. Hate the sin but love the sinner type deal.. God didn't always talk about love and peace. There are times when you turn the other cheek to show mercy, love, etc. But there are also times when judgment must come. For instance, Luke 22 (v36 I think), Jesus tells his disciples to sell their cloak and buy a sword.
Just my two cents.
muddywings
03-06-2013, 10:38
TL;DR
How did the founding fathers deal with it?
Try this on for size and see if it fits. Written by Chuck Baldwin.
(c) Chuck Baldwin
Thank you for this; I am going to buy his book!
Holger Danske
03-06-2013, 10:50
Luke 22:35-38
I am a Christian. I apologize to anyone who has met me that would be surprised by my declaration of faith. I apologize that my faith is not more evident in my observable character.
Disclaimer: I am not a theologian. I speak with no authority except that which is given to me by my experience and creator. My opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it [Flower]
Christ, while God was also man. Unlike any other man, he is without sin. Being without sin and being God allows his efforts and teaching to be perfect. As a sinful man, all that I do is imperfect and falls short of God's purpose and glory. Anything instituted, organized, managed, run by, or otherwise associated with human beings will always fall short of God's purpose.
I am fearful about a great many things, including the future of our nation and for my children. I do not fear my own death so much as I fear for the consequences that my death would have for my wife and children. I am guilty of spending too much time and attention to the daily concerns of the world. It is another symptom of my sinfulness. I worry about things that I know that God has control over. I don't know what God's plan is and I don't know who God has chosen. I can never truly understand why anything happens the way it does in this life. All analogies break down at some point, but here is the one I will offer: How can an amoeba fully realize all of the implications of everything in the world when it doesn't know how big the world is? How can I fully realize the mind of God and all of his will when I don't know how big it is?
God is my anchor. God is my rock. God is my fortress.
Whatever comes, will come. I pray that I will do my best to represent the God who gives me this life. Regardless of my performance, God loves me and I can do nothing to change that.
I can not tell you why I believe what I believe as I do not believe it is something I had total control over. It is faith, and all that I know is that I believe. I have peace in that knowledge. I wish that I could find a way to give that peace to others, but it is not my peace to give. I pray that everyone can find that peace.
Do I still worry about the stupidity, violence, hate, ignorance, and indifference that surrounds us everyday? Yes! Should I? No. I am a weak and sinful man.
Be safe.
My personal beliefs are based on Christianity, but with that "IDK" mentality that is more akin to Atheists (although I believe in God and the teachings of Jesus). I take the biblical tales with a grain of salt and do not treat them as historical fact, but more stories of heroism, justice, and how to act towards others and be right with the Lord. I don't subscribe to a "mass religion" but do believe, and in my beliefs, much like that of Thomas Jefferson, my religious beliefs are individual, not dictated by an organized "Church." I drink, I lust, I swear, I covet, I assassinate the character of others, I have hate in my heart, etc. But I don't see myself as a "bad" person, as I do still believe in the simple fact that Jesus did die for my sins, that he is the only begotten son, and so on and so forth. I see the current political discourse as simply another test from God, one that might test the limits of our patience, virtue, and see how far we are willing to go so that future generations may live in peace and liberty. I would hope that God would be forgiving if SHTF and us righteous were forced into direct conflict with tyranny.
Southbridge
03-06-2013, 10:51
A lot of various things going on in this thread, but I just want to touch on one pet peeve of mine. Christ was in no way a pacifist. Some other posters have already touched on a legitimate use of violence, but I always come back to Luke 22:35-38. Christ clearly admonishes the Apostles to be armed in a time of crisis. And for those who may wish to say that such swords were metaphorical, the Apostles show Christ two physical swords and then He finishes His admonition for them to be armed.
Stay focused on the areas you can impact and be a blessing for your neighbor first,
I like this... that's some solid advice there.
When it comes to obeying our govt, look up Psalms 22:28. Take it as you may... this govt is corrupt and ultimately I live my life by the only Book that matters.
"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves” (Romans 13:1-2)"
“Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right” (1 Peter 2:13-14).
Not arguing here, just playing devil's advocate. Thoughts?
For instance, Luke 22 (v36 I think), Jesus tells his disciples to sell their cloak and buy a sword.
I've always enjoyed this verse...
TL;DR
How did the founding fathers deal with it?
I believe that the founding fathers were inspired to their revolution by God. No question about it.
Southbridge
03-06-2013, 10:56
I like this... that's some solid advice there.
"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves” (Romans 13:1-2)"
“Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right” (1 Peter 2:13-14).
Not arguing here, just playing devil's advocate. Thoughts?
I've always enjoyed this verse...
I believe that the founding fathers were inspired to their revolution by God. No question about it.
Mark 12:17, the famous verse about rendering unto Caesar. We are only bound to give to the government that which is legitimately their due. So now you get into the realm of just and unjust laws.
I see the current political discourse as simply another test from God, one that might test the limits of our patience, virtue, and see how far we are willing to go so that future generations may live in peace and liberty.
I agree, however I don't believe it's a test from God so much as just the natural, predictable, plodding progression downward to a bad direction. Probably borne of human nature. The test will be how we react to it.
How can I fully realize the mind of God and all of his will when I don't know how big it is?
God is my anchor. God is my rock. God is my fortress.
Whatever comes, will come. I pray that I will do my best to represent the God who gives me this life. Regardless of my performance, God loves me and I can do nothing to change that.
I agree. It's comforting to realize that I don't have to have everything completely figured out on my own.
Mark 12:17, the famous verse about rendering unto Caesar. We are only bound to give to the government that which is legitimately their due. So now you get into the realm of just and unjust laws.
I think discerning those very things are a large part of the reason that God gave us common sense, and the ability for critical thought. (Pity the vast majority out there have abdicated those responsibilities and would prefer to have their TV think for them.)
sellersm
03-06-2013, 11:19
For me, it comes down to my relationship with God through Christ. I've been trying to learn how to walk "hand in hand" with God, and allow my life to be fully directed by Him, as Jesus' life was (John 14-15). Therefore, the answer to questions like this, and many others, is to find what God's perspective/viewpoint/mind is on the issue at hand. The conclusion I've come to is this: I will obey what God tells me to do at the time I need to make a choice. One of the roles of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus teaches in John 16, is to "lead and guide us into all Truth". So, if I have the Holy Spirit, I should be able to ask Him what He wants me to know about a given situation...
I know that can sound like a cop-out, but in fact, it's quite the opposite. It's taken me a long number of years of practicing obedience (and yielding and submission) to get to the point where I can be trusted by God so that He knows I'll do what He tells me to do!! I'm still working on it, all the time...
Jesus gave us some insight, however, into this issue in Matthew 23. He's "blasting" the Pharisees, who represent the '.gov' of the day for the nation of Israel, and He says this:
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
So Jesus makes it clear that there's some kind of responsibility to following the rules, but we are NOT to follow the lifestyles (which of course, indicates that the beliefs behind those lifestyles are NOT to be adopted by us). Or at least, that's what I see in those verses...
Also, here's an interesting perspective on the Scriptures related to some of this issue (not so much the .gov part), I'll post the link cuz the article's quite lengthy: http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/the-bible-and-self-defense
May God grant us all His Wisdom as we seek to know Him better.
ChunkyMonkey
03-06-2013, 11:30
"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves” (Romans 13:1-2)"
“Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right” (1 Peter 2:13-14).
Not arguing here, just playing devil's advocate. Thoughts?
I believe that the founding fathers were inspired to their revolution by God. No question about it. ^^ why?
You just answered yourself. Again refer to Psalms 22:28 as to which nation/govt to obey. When the govt violated The commandments by killing its own citizen, theft etc, it's no longer His nations. This is an extremely simple question. Will you obey Hitler's command to kill the Jews? No. Why?
losttrail
03-06-2013, 11:33
I too am one of those that is weak, broken and human, struggling with trying to be what God wants and failing. Yet I keep trying.
I struggle with doing what is right in God's eyes, rendering unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's, yet realizing that there comes a point of injustice that does not (or must not) need to be tolerated. At some point we must just say 'No'.
My belief is that we are not required to tolerate everything. We must have standards, morals, virtues that are unwaverable. If/when our government institutes illegal, immoral, unethical laws/regulations, then we must react. Whether this is voting, educating our neighbors on the topics, running for political office ourselves, withdrawing to the wilderness or armed rebellion, I would hope that God will be the one leading us in those efforts.
There are times to turn the other cheek, run away and hide, stand up and fight. I think that God gives us certain characteristics, personality traits and abilities to perform whatever tasks He will lay out before us. I can't help but think He has planned for me to be a soldier at some point. I've done it for Uncle Sam in the past, but may have the ultimate General in the future.
Things will get worse before they get better. God first, family second, friends third. Our government will become tyrannical and more Godless than it already is. I will not suffer a tyrant.
ronaldrwl
03-06-2013, 11:33
That is a common misunderstanding. I've heard many sermons on this topic and the short answer is Christians are not of this world (Jesus said this) and we're not going to answer to the rulers of this world (Cesar). You are to obey the rulers that are give to you (Priest, Pastor, Rabbi....).
This is some food for thought about turning the other cheek from Matthew 5:39-41. In Jesus’ time he and the Jews were oppressed and were being treated very poorly by the Romans. A Roman soldier could punish a Jew for pretty much anything. But Jesus found a way to get respect and turn the punishment own to the Romans by the Romans own "morals" and laws.
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-5-39/)
To smack someone on the right cheek the smacker would have used his right hand, back in the day left hands were only used to wipe your ass and I believe it is still this way in the middle east, The smack would have been a back hand, demining punishment, but by turning the other cheek it required a punch to the left cheek. Which demands the respect as an equal.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-5-40/)
IF you were to give someone your coat and cloke, what would that leave you with? Nothing, you would be bare ass. An nudity was looked down upon especially in public, as it is today. But who would have the shame of making some one nude. By giving someone your cloke the person suing you would hold that shame.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-5-41/)
This is one of my favorites, because of the implications involved. A Roman soldier could ask someone to carry their gear for one mile, after that the soldier could get someone else or carry it himself; if someone carried his gear for more than a mile the soldier would be severely punished because the Roman Army had "morals" and laws that were adhered to. By walking two mile the soldier would be asking you to stop and be at your will rather than his own.
Typically people don't see Jesus as a rebel because he was not out fighting a physical war. But he used the system that was in place to get respect from those that ruled over him. There is a time to fight and a time to comply. Jesus over complied, because fighting meant death.
"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves” (Romans 13:1-2)"
“Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right” (1 Peter 2:13-14).
Not arguing here, just playing devil's advocate. Thoughts?
To this, I'm reminded of what a preacher once told me: "The laws of God are higher than the laws of man. If a conflict ever came up between them, surely God cannot fault you for disobeying the laws of man in order to adhere to the laws of God."
How (or do) you reconcile what the Bible has to say re: submitting to governmental authority, turning the other cheek, not inciting/engaging in violent thoughts or actions etc, with the views I know most of us on the board hold re: anti-governmentalism, self-defense, and general ideas of how we'd react to noxious criminal or governmental encroaches on our pursuit of life/liberty?
If you don't object to a different perspective I'll certainly offer one.
First off, I'm not really sure why I clicked this topic, as I'm not a Christian or even of a Christian based belief. With that said, I have many friends who are and as always we tend to hold a mutual respect for one another and don't tread on each other's god/gods. It is recognized that at the end of the day, we bleed the same blood, salute the same flag, and hold dearly the beliefs of the US Constitution as written by the forefathers who had a great vision but always said, "... if you can keep it....". Today we live in a society that doesn't seem to be 'keeping' what was given, they'd rather turn it over to more government control and regulation. Some of my Christian friends have expressed the same issue you've mentioned and why they'd ask me, I have no idea, my very religious beliefs are rather contradictory to their's, but as a friend, if a question is asked, an answer is given even if its not exactly what they wanted to hear.
In my religion the 'law of the land' should be recognized so long as it is decided by the people to be fair and of a non-tyrannical sort, and/or at least agreed upon by a majority. That also being said, every man should do what in his heart is 'right'. If that right, defies the laws, the people could hold that man's actions responsible if they see fit, and if death is the punishment he should hold his head high and welcome it. Because he's done what it right in his heart, his seat in the Great Hall amongst kindred warriors is assured. A man should enter the afterlife never with fear, but of glory. Fear is only a useful tool to keep this body alive long enough to accomplish his worldly tasks, never should he be controlled by it, only fueled by it.
Christian friends have spoken about their 'fear of god' and I must admit that concept is very alien to me. My gods would not dare 'smite' me, knowing I'd have full justification to smite back, but try explaining to those of a more popular faith that 'revenge' is not the 'evil' they perceive it to be, its only judged that way due to a difference of teachings. A man's family, clan and kindred are to be prized and fought for with every ounce of his being. I have a family, I have good friends of many varieties of faiths I proudly call clan, and the kindred are all of you in here who like me/mine hold true to the idea that our country was founded on excellent principles and has always held great potential, until seemingly recently.
Again, I haven't written this to stir any pots, cause hatred or anything of the sort. We can have differing beliefs yet still hold true to the gift the forefathers presented. And in the 1st of such rights they honored us with sort of hinted that one day there will be those of us who hail different heros and deitys. I merely took this post as an opinion asked for and the one I'll give is "follow what is right in your hearts". But the decision you make is your's to do with.
Hails, and carry on.
Badger
liberty19
03-06-2013, 13:45
Dingo,
Good discussion. Thanks for starting it. I too, as a Christian, struggle with this. My peace comes from knowing that no matter what happens, God is in control. With that being said,I will fight tooth and nail for my family and my country and our freedom with a clear conscience.
Me and God can hash out the details upstairs when I get there. In the meantime, I'll help Satan fill his quota with anyone that aims to hurt me, my family or my family's future.
To this, I'm reminded of what a preacher once told me: "The laws of God are higher than the laws of man. If a conflict ever came up between them, surely God cannot fault you for disobeying the laws of man in order to adhere to the laws of God."
Without a doubt.
If you don't object to a different perspective I'll certainly offer one. We can have differing beliefs yet still hold true to the gift the forefathers presented.
Badger - absolutely. I agree with the entirety of your post 100%, albeit through the lens of the perspective my faith gives me. It's one of the beautiful things about the intent of the founding fathers that America should be a haven for the free exchange of differing ideas, and freedom of religion, trade, peaceable existence. I always welcome any diverse viewpoints expressed in an intelligent and fair manner. Thanks for the food for thought!
The bible is very supportive of the concept of justice. It is also very supportive of the protection of innocents.
"turn the other cheek" does not mean you are a doormat. It doesn't mean christian women should go around, advertising "I'm a christian, you can like, rape me, or whatever, and I'll just turn the other cheek mmkay!". Capiche? It's about not coming from a position of vengeance more than anything. God has supported many war efforts - even absolute genocide. He/it is NOT a liberal, pacifist, pantywaist. When something stands in the way of his will, he will do what it takes. In performance of his will, you should do the same.
Example: Complete genocide of a people down to the last man, woman, and child. Why? Nephilim. They had infected a gene pool (Philistines). He wasn't above wiping out even children as a means to the end. The bible and god supports both pacifist and patriot. There is nothing telling you to lay down.
Agreed. I think ultimately it all comes down to individual circumstances dealt with in the perception, common sense, and conscience that was granted us by our Creator. There are always exceptions to every rule, and God gave us brains to figure out the right way to handle things without having a specific Bible verse dealing with every conceivable situation.
Dingo,
Good discussion. Thanks for starting it. I too, as a Christian, struggle with this. My peace comes from knowing that no matter what happens, God is in control. With that being said,I will fight tooth and nail for my family and my country and our freedom with a clear conscience.
I'm with you there. I wouldn't hesitate to resist vehemently, answer with violence, or even lay down my life if needs be, in the defense of the things I hold dear. I believe God knows this about me, and is in control of which circumstances I'll be placed in in that regard.
Me and God can hash out the details upstairs when I get there. In the meantime, I'll help Satan fill his quota with anyone that aims to hurt me, my family or my family's future.
Hell yes. If some animal decides to threaten me or mine, they've effectively removed themselves from the algorithm of conscience and placed themselves deep into the territory of instinctual, necessary reaction.
bellavite1
03-06-2013, 14:12
Speaking of Devil's advocate...
Never mind! [Tooth]
Lol. Nice. Hey - one of my managers years ago was an open Satanist. We still got along and had some great laughs. He's a gun guy, so we got along famously.
bellavite1
03-06-2013, 14:27
Lol. Nice. Hey - one of my managers years ago was an open Satanist. We still got along and had some great laughs. He's a gun guy, so we got along famously.
[Beer]
But, jokes aside, this is definetely not a thread I should partake in.
I am one to respect othere's views as long as they respect mine.
Out.
griebel303
03-06-2013, 14:39
Dingo,
Good discussion. Thanks for starting it. I too, as a Christian, struggle with this. My peace comes from knowing that no matter what happens, God is in control. With that being said,I will fight tooth and nail for my family and my country and our freedom with a clear conscience.
Couldn't have said it better myself. I would rather be standing at the pearly gates a man who protected what he believed in, then a coward who hid. I am far from a perfect christian, but I think at the end of the day god knows what is truly in your heart and behind your actions, and that is what matters.
God bless... I mean, thanks for dropping in Luigi... [ROFL1] I was just about to say, What's Mr. Bellavite's take on this issue. I do like how he, among so many Atheists/Agnostics I know, can actually respect a difference in beliefs, and even provide educational insight in discussions. I never mean any offense to you Luigi when comparing Obama to Satan... I guess I should go with Mao/Hitler/Stalin on that, huh? [Beer]
sellersm
03-06-2013, 14:42
Couldn't have said it better myself. I would rather be standing at the pearly gates a man who protected what he believed in, then a coward who hid. I am far from a perfect christian, but I think at the end of the day god know what is truly in your heart and behind your actions, and that is what matters.
It's interesting, because in Revelations 21, verse 8, the cowardly are specifically mentioned:
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
wctriumph
03-06-2013, 14:51
I try to live my life well and be a good husband and father and I try to be a genuinely nice guy and live by the Golden Rule which my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ said:
"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." (Although as my wife points out, I am just a little judgmental when it comes to other persons. Perhaps because of the quote below.)
I temper that by what a another wise man, my father, told me:
"People are no damn good."
Be a person of good character, tell the truth, defend yourself if needed, stand up to injustice and evil and say your prayers.
Bentsight
03-06-2013, 15:41
I'm with you there. I wouldn't hesitate to resist vehemently, answer with violence, or even lay down my life if needs be, in the defense of the things I hold dear. I believe God knows this about me, and is in control of which circumstances I'll be placed in in that regard.
^^^ THIS
Yeah, God is on the throne, He is in control. Those is power have been put there by Him. We are to submit to them unless they ask us to do something contrary to His law. This doesn't mean we blindly accept what is happening. We can speak against them, vote against them, run against them and ask others to do the same. We can't shoot them in their sleep.
They can kill my body, that would suck, but not as bad as Him sending me away from His presence.
Christianity pretty much promises suffering, espically for His name. We shouldn't be surprised.
Dingo, you and I are of like mind, and I know there are many more on the forum like us. It's extremely difficult to be a good follower of Christ and I'm a horrible representation of him, that's for sure... That's where his grace proves quite helpful. Since I'm short of time at the moment (I'll try to reply again later today), I'll simply say this.
Along with the convictions and direction you've mentioned above, I'm a believer that the Lord will put an end to all of the chaos when he sees fit. While we should not live with our heads in the sand and entirely rely on blind faith, getting unhealthily wrapped up and concerned about the future of humanity does little to no good. Stay focused on the areas you can impact and be a blessing for your neighbor first, before trying to change the world.
I'll comment back about government, shortly.
As promised in my post this morning, I'd like to revisit this with respect to government implications.
Elected officials.. as much as we despise some of them at times, we cannot forget that they have been placed there by an all-knowing, all-controlling, gracious savior who sees the bigger picture. There's no way we can see the whole plan until afterward, so just keep watching and playing your role as best as you can. We are to obey the law of our land unless that law breaks the law of God (10 commandments are a good start).
An important point that a lot of folks don't recognize is that when we experience the worldly turmoil that we do, it is not due to the will of God that we feel the evil in our world. Just as cold is the absence of heat, and darkness is the absence of light, evil is the absence of God. This is the whole basis for being a light unto the world....
Troublco
03-06-2013, 21:07
I'm not exactly a poster child for my faith either, but I don't buy the idea that all our elected officials were placed there by the Lord. If that were the case, then King George was placed there by Him as well (as the King believed) and our Founding Fathers should have just knuckled under and dealt with their situation. Just because someone is elected, doesn't mean the Lord put them there. And just because they are there, doesn't mean that we automatically are bound to do their bidding.
The Lord gave man free will; and with that free will comes actions that go against His will. A lot of our elected politicians have made it clear that they aren't there to do our will; rather they see themselves as placed there to do what they think we need. Key on "they think". The Pharisees thought they were doing what they should, too. Oops.
It isn't just when man's laws violate God's. Moses didn't let the fact that the Pharaoh was in charge stop him from doing what was right. If we just say "Oh, our elected officials must be where they are by God's grace"; we're already done. There's a difference between "doing things right" (meaning, legally or within the law) and "doing the right thing" (what you should do). You can't always do things right when you do the right thing (although you do have to be willing to take responsibility for things you do, even if it's a case of doing the right thing when that thing goes against a law, or regulation). Man is flawed; man's laws can easily be flawed. I do not believe that the Lord is looking for blind obedience to man's laws. The military teaches that just because you are ordered to do something, doesn't mean that if you do that thing and you know it was wrong, you're OK. Add to that the fact all of our own laws that are broken regularly by our elected officials, all the lies we get from them, I personally believe that the Lord does indeed protect those who protect themselves. We have to think for ourselves, following God's law and doing the right thing, when it comes to man's law. Back to free will...
Trout Hunter
03-06-2013, 21:21
So this is a topic that I generally try to avoid as I belong to one of the most persecuted Christian Religions in the US. But on this topic my love of country and goes directly with my religious beliefs. From my beliefs we believe that there was a war in heaven about plans, one that was based on agency and the ability for us to choose and the one that didn't win that was championed by Satan was one of removing our ability to choose and being forced to do things. Now mind that is a cliff note version of the cliff notes of our belief. But based on the same beliefs I see that the same principles carry on to this temporal life. We believe that this country was established for freedom of religions and that the principles that the Constitution was based on were inspired so things that take away from those principles come from the opposition. I am a firm believer that when peoples rights , which are not granted by the government but from God, are infringed upon its not just our civic duty but our moral duty to push back and protect peoples ability to choose for themselves. So in a nut shell one of the things that we believe in is being subject to the laws of the land, but at the same time it doesn't mean roll over and fall in line, it means to follow unjust laws but to fight them through the legal means and work at changing them.
ShelbyJK500
03-06-2013, 22:36
Yeah, God is on the throne, He is in control. Those is power have been put there by Him. We are to submit to them unless they ask us to do something contrary to His law. This doesn't mean we blindly accept what is happening. We can speak against them, vote against them, run against them and ask others to do the same. We can't shoot them in their sleep.
They can kill my body, that would suck, but not as bad as Him sending me away from His presence.
Christianity pretty much promises suffering, espically for His name. We shouldn't be surprised.
^^This....
I wish I had more time to opine. The "Big Picture" is always under His control. Our personal lives and personal responsibilities lay with our personal relationship with Him. I toil with this daily, even more so with career implications. The scripture does not tell us to submit to authority, specifying that it has to be what we consider "honorable" or "just" authority. Christ spoke of this submission as he was under the rule of Roman gov't and was ultimately crucified under Pilate! That is the ultimate in submission and Hallelujah for us all that Christ did submit. Even in the garden, Christ toiled with His coming crucifixion.
I would only add this for now. Whatever authority you are under, they CANNOT make you do something that is against His will. That ultimate decision is on you. Let's be pragmatic here. While the gov't may create more laws restricting us, burdening us, taxing us...etc. They can't FORCE you to murder someone, they can't FORCE you to have an abortion, they can't FORCE you to enslave another. Those are still decisions made by free men. Freedom is found in choices. Paul found himself many times imprisoned, beaten and stoned for the righteous work of spreading the Kingdom. RARE is the man today who is willing to step out in that much faith. That is where I feel the struggle the most. I think of how scripture shows us that Paul, while imprisoned, would sing songs of joy to our Lord. That is a man who knew the face of Christ. To know such persecution and find joy in the midst. That is the faith of a man we should all strive toward as believers. :)
John 15:18
18 (http://bible.cc/john/15-18.htm)“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.19 (http://bible.cc/john/15-19.htm)If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.20 (http://bible.cc/john/15-20.htm)Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.
Persecution is certain as a follower of Christ.
Our founding fathers had something we do not, and will never know. They had a small enough / manageable enough population of citizens with common (for the most part) goals and direction. To be free men. ALL pinnacle societies fall. The US will not be the exception. The arrogance of our society to believe that we can "control" things such as violence is astounding. Since the beginning of time, rulers and societies have risen and fallen with nothing more than a whimper because of Man's sinful nature. We must do whatever we have within our "span of control" to Love others as Christ would so that His light should pierce the darkness in every form. It is a war that will not be won until He comes again.
In Him,
ShelbyJK
Very good thread. I two years ago, was almost killed by Mother Nature , being now on #7 of 9 lives. It made me realize I am here for some more, started going to church for the 1st time in 39 years. I found it was the something I needed in my life. That being said I am not the model Christian by any means!! But truely what does that have to do with me being excepted by god ? Not a damn thing, god lays out what a man role is in life, a marriage,leader etc , I will not be judged by some bible thumping freak, the ones that judge are really not Christian's, they are fakes. I believe and live my life, make my decissions with god in mind, but they are my choices, but mistakes or not god will not judge me! Here is my thoughts on the politicians, they put their hand on the bible and swear to everything our country stands for, so help me god! Key word right there, these POSs will suffer the retribution of their lies !! Might not happen now, maybe not that persons, but god will get them or a loved one etc
I am very happy to see that there are so many believers posting here - I for one am encouraged by your words and your perspectives. I am the director of security for a large church in the metro area (volunteer) in addition to my "day job" and this topic has come up quite a bit on our team.
We are called to submit to a point - but we are also called to be prepared. We have security in our houses of worship because Satan prowls around like a lion looking for someone to devour. Does anybody doubt that Satan has done just that time and time again? We are called to defend the flock - to protect those who are not capable of protecting themselves.
We are to ensure that our government does not trample on our freedom - losing the 2nd Amendment would be the gateway to losing the rest of our freedom - and this would include our freedom to worship our creator and our Lord and King Jesus Christ.
I have struggled with this myself - after prayer and consideration I have been led to the calmness of knowing that God is in control. His ways are higher ways, but He assures us that He will protect us. As bad as our nation is, we still are a nation that exports Christ's love to the world. Our people in our churches spread the Word of God, spread love, feed the homeless, care for the sick and needy, and above all, try to bring salvation to others.
We must defend that capability with all of our ability. The Lord will provide! God takes the worst sinners (I am one) and gives us His Spirit and His Courage to do His Will
GOD BLESS YOU BROTHERS!
I will admit I have not read all the posts, but I will at some point.
Peter cut off the Centurions ear and was not rebuked for the action, but for the timing. The Bible is clear that murder is sin, but killing a person is not always murder. While the 6th Commandment prohibits murder, killing and death are endorsed when it is carried out in concert with the rule of law as penalty or defense.
In Genesis 4, we have Cain murdering Able due to the evil in his heart, not because there was a murderous object bringing him to murder. When we go to Matthew 5:38-39 (Sermon on the Mount) which is often used to assert Christ was a passivist, it is clear that Christ was clearing up confusion about personal vengance versus conduct of a civil government. Exodus 20-22 ascribed punishments, to be enforced by the civil government, for crimes against persons and property, but still did not allow vengence. In Exodus 22:2-3, it is clear that self-defense is not sin.
Biblical principles are clear that SELF GOVERNANCE of our thoughts, actions and words is God's best plan. When man pridefully turns from God, self-control becomes impossible and in those cases, PUNISHMENT (not control) by the Civil government is required. Never did God approve CONTROL of persons by other persons nor a Government...PERIOD!
Ezekiel 18:20 refutes ALL of the gun control measures brought forth. "The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." Person and implements are not to be controlled by Government, Government was only meant to punish those who are evil and do evil. To take tools from men (control) who are not evil to keep them from the hands of those who are evil is in direct conflict with Biblical principles.
Here is where non-Christians will balk, but it is clear that the framing of America, even by those who were professed athiests, was based on Biblical principles. Self-Control is first, corporal punishment for lack of self-control is to be carried out on those who do evil by the civil government. If Christ is not our King, a dictator shall rule over the land...that is where we are. As a Christian, I know who wins in the end, and it is not the liberals. I also know as a Christian that I will be persecuted, but the suffering on this earth is nothing compared to hell. Most of my friends are not Christians, I desire to talk to them about Christ, they know my beleifs. BUT, Christ NEVER taught hate for people. We are to hate the sin, not the person.
All that said, the struggle is real and this path we are on will lead to prohibitions against practicing our faith, that is clear as well. As a Christian who desires for the return of Christ, will promoting the bills bring his return sooner? Will fighting these bills dealy his return? The answer to both is a resounding NO. The time of his return is known only to God and we can not dealy or hasten it individually. I beleive I am instructed to fight oppression and control at every turn. However, the taking of life to that end, unless I, or other innocent life is attacked, is not within my rights as a Christian.
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