Enforce What?

[Great-Kazoo]

Since this a C&P is another thread http://www.ar-15.co/threads/93767-Magazines-with-and-without-date-stamps-or-other-identifying-features
And it is to stay on topic, I will ask the op of that thread. WHY should "WE" make ENFORCEMENT EASIER?? Are you going to freely hand over your magazines for "Inspection"
may i see ze papers PLEEZ??


FWIW Most if not all Pistol magazines are marked RESTRICTED LE/ MILITARY ONLY THAT ARE MFG after 9/94 and before 9/2004. Does that mean IF it does not have a "date Stamp" on it i should do what?

So with the impending passage of 1224 I think a discussion of which magazines have date stamps and which ones don't would be good for researching the effects of this law. Could we compile a list of magazines for various models of guns that are confirmed to not have date stamps? Or is there a list already available somewhere? Would it be better to list magazines that do have date stamps rather than ones that dont? This would inform the community which magazines we should stay away from to make enforcement of this law easier..

[Fentonite]

So, trying to figure out what I can do to protect ME and MY RIGHTS...

I can foresee the libs trying to confiscate mags and laying the burden of proof on the owner, regarding date of ownership. It could be nearly impossible to prove that I owned a specific mag before a certain date. I've considered marking my mags in some unique fashion, photographing the lot, and emailing the pictures to myself. Not perfect, but it might give me a leg to stand on, if my "legal" ownership is ever questioned.

[Troublco]

I'm having a hard time saying anything other than SCREW 'EM!.

Libs are a blight...It pains me to think of all the oxygen they're wasting that a perfectly decent human being could use.

[Great-Kazoo]

So, trying to figure out what I can do to protect ME and MY RIGHTS...

I can foresee the libs trying to confiscate mags and laying the burden of proof on the owner, regarding date of ownership. It could be nearly impossible to prove that I owned a specific mag before a certain date. I've considered marking my mags in some unique fashion, photographing the lot, and emailing the pictures to myself. Not perfect, but it might give me a leg to stand on, if my "legal" ownership is ever questioned.


At that point in time the gun grabbers will not care how "legit" you guns and acc are, That's a fact.

[baglock1]

Since date markings aren't required by law (currently), what would stop me from going out right now and using a dremel to remove the existing markings? What's to distinguish that mag from one made after June 1 (or July 1, whatever it is) with the date ground off? Answer: nothing. This law is unenforceable and is going to be a burden on EVERYONE except the GD politicians.

[roberth]

How is this going to be enforced?

I shoot at the Golden Gun Club. Is the ACSO going to patrol the line and interrogate everyone who is using a 20 or 30 round PMAG? Is the asshole FUDD or fuckstain liberal next to you going to call the Sheriff b/c they don't like your EBR? How is the Sheriff going to handle this, you've got a hot rifle and you're target shooting, are they going to draw down on you and order you to comply? If you make a wrong move in their eyes are they going to light you up?

I think I'm going to be using USGI AR mags with no dates on them just to see what happens.

[james_bond_007]

...I can foresee the libs trying to confiscate mags and laying the burden of proof on the owner, regarding date of ownership...
The bill says the burden of proof is on the prosecution; however Sen. Lundberg (I think it was him) said during the lop-sided "debate" on Friday that generally what might happen is that the mag and the weapon will be confiscated as evidence.
Since it will be expensive to defend yourself in court, a plea bargain will be entered in which the defendant gives up the mag and gun in exchange for the prosecution dropping the charges.

Also, if one can't distinguish one mag fro another, one cannot prove that the "receipt" one has , or the picture with the newspaper one has etc. applies to THAT specific mag. So as you point out, it is impossible, in most cases, to prove the mag was yours before 01JUL13. Even for mags WITH date codes or that are not made anymore, it is difficult to prove that YOU owned it before 01JUL13 and did not get it from a buddy on 02JUL13.

In theory, every range could be visited by "the mag police" , and you could be "challenged" each tie you pull out a mag.

[Lippy Laroux]

In theory the "Mag Police" can get an effen warrant to look at the date codes on my mags.... Also is it a crime to grind numbers off mags?

[james_bond_007]

...I shoot at the Golden Gun Club. Is the ACSO going to patrol the line and interrogate everyone who is using a 20 or 30 round PMAG? ...
As Sen. Lundberg pointed out in the lop-sided "debate" on Friday, the bill also indicates "mags > 15 rounds OR THOSE MAGS READILY CONVERTED TO HOLD > 15 rounds" . He pointed out that with the use of 3-D thermoplastic "printers", mag extensions can be made for nearly ALL mags. He showed, using a 5-round AR mag, how a 5-round mag is considered "readily converted" to > 15 by taking the 5-round mag, removing the floor plate, adding on the "3-D printed plastic 15 round mag extension" , replacing the spring, and reassembling, how the 5 round mag (now a 20 round mag) is "illegal" under this bill.
(forgive me for paraphrasing and not quoting the actual bill text or actual extension size used, please)

[james_bond_007]

.... Also is it a crime to grind numbers off mags?
Not spelled out in the bill.

Another example of how poorly written it is.

[dwalker460]

So, trying to figure out what I can do to protect ME and MY RIGHTS...

I can foresee the libs trying to confiscate mags and laying the burden of proof on the owner, regarding date of ownership. It could be nearly impossible to prove that I owned a specific mag before a certain date. I've considered marking my mags in some unique fashion, photographing the lot, and emailing the pictures to myself. Not perfect, but it might give me a leg to stand on, if my "legal" ownership is ever questioned.


This tact will endanger a lot of Law Enforcement personnel and citizens health and safety.

[james_bond_007]

Also no law, as far as I can tell, making "adding a date " to a mag illegal.
EX: Maybe you want to have your birthday engraved on all mags you own for easy identification ? (for example)

The law only seems to address having a date code (engraved or embossed) on mags manufactured in CO after 01JUL13.

So you can have all your mags engraved with a Pre 01JUL13 date...if that will do any good.

[james_bond_007]

Sen Lundberg stated that the mag ban is about PARTY POLITICS (those from Washington and from Mayor Bloomberg), not about safety.
I can't recall ONE DEM Sen. (except Hodge) that spoke on behalf of defending HB 1224.*

The DEMS did not HAVE to speak...they went into the bill wth a 20 to 15 lead. By speaking, they only risked the chance of LOSING a vote.

Dem Sen Hodge (I think ) spoke only a few times:
1) Introduced/Motioned the Bill & cited all the mass tragedies (including mistakenly VA Tech)
2) Asked for an AYE Vote on the bill
3) Asked for NAY Vote on proposed amendment #1
4) Asked for NAY Vote on proposed amendment #2

*(Updated: Let me correct myself. After reading some reports, I found that Sen Mike Johnston also spoke in favor of the bill; so 2 DEMS spoke)

[JMBD2112]

How is this going to be enforced?

I shoot at the Golden Gun Club. Is the ACSO going to patrol the line and interrogate everyone who is using a 20 or 30 round PMAG? Is the asshole FUDD or fuckstain liberal next to you going to call the Sheriff b/c they don't like your EBR? How is the Sheriff going to handle this, you've got a hot rifle and you're target shooting, are they going to draw down on you and order you to comply? If you make a wrong move in their eyes are they going to light you up?

I think I'm going to be using USGI AR mags with no dates on them just to see what happens.

not trying to bust your bubble, but every GI mag I've seen, has a date stamp on them

[dwalker460]

The date code passed? I thought that was struck and they are just supposed to be "marked" somehow to designate they had been manufactured after the effective date, which BTW will be hard to convince manufacturers from out of state- meaning all of them now- to play along, and theres not jack they can do about it.

[james_bond_007]

The date code passed? I thought that was struck and they are just supposed to be "marked" somehow to designate they had been manufactured after the effective date, which BTW will be hard to convince manufacturers from out of state- meaning all of them now- to play along, and theres not jack they can do about it.

I can't say for sure without a copy of the latest rev. The version I reviewed had the date code stuff it it.

Do you know where I can get a copy of the latest Rev ?

[james_bond_007]

not trying to bust your bubble, but every GI mag I've seen, has a date stamp on them

(Not challenging you, JMBD2112 ....just asking )

Do you know if "GI-Like" metal mags, like those from Brownell's, have such a code ?
Anyone know about the C-Products mags that were recently shipped ?
M1 Carbine 30-round mags ? (old and new )
AK mags ?
etc. ?

[brutal]

not trying to bust your bubble, but every GI mag I've seen, has a date stamp on them

I have personally seen pre-ban 30 rd mags without dates and have a Colt 20 rd undated.

Autocorrect courtesy of droid using tapatalk

[Great-Kazoo]

(Not challenging you, JMBD2112 ....just asking )

Do you know if "GI-Like" metal mags, like those from Brownell's, have such a code ?
Anyone know about the C-Products mags that were recently shipped ?
M1 Carbine 30-round mags ? (old and new )
AK mags ?
etc. ?


The latest brownells have no date code.

[cfortune]

(Not challenging you, JMBD2112 ....just asking )

Do you know if "GI-Like" metal mags, like those from Brownell's, have such a code ?
Anyone know about the C-Products mags that were recently shipped ?
M1 Carbine 30-round mags ? (old and new )
AK mags ?
etc. ?


I purchased 5 c-products 30 rounders a few weeks ago and they have no date.

[clublights]

I just looked and my half dozen or so Army issue mags have date codes.

[HBARleatherneck]

not trying to bust your bubble, but every GI mag I've seen, has a date stamp on them
Jim and I have plenty with no date stamp.

GI mags have been around a long time and long before they thought of dating them.

[motohooligan]

I hope Magpul removes the date code from PMAGS

[JMBD2112]

The 30 c-products mags I got have date stamps. All of the other random GI mags I have also have date stamps......there was another thread where several other members were saying the same thing, so I checked all of mine and sure as hell, they have stamps. Don't get me wrong, I wish they didn't

[def90]

I will ask the op of that thread. WHY should "WE" make ENFORCEMENT EASIER??

This would inform the community which magazines we should stay away from to make enforcement of this law easier..

I took this highlighted portion of his post as being sarcastic/subversive? When I read it I took it as a way to keep track of which magazines don't have markings thus making them untraceable while making the post read to an outsider as if we are trying to do the right thing.. which now with this post and your post the whole thing is blown.

[JMBD2112]

Here's a question, I have several rifles back in Tennessee at my folks house and I'm planning on bringing them back with me after I go home to visit this summer. If I was to bring an SKS I have back along with the several mags I have for it, would the mags be Illegal under the proposed ban?

[clublights]

Here's a question, I have several rifles back in Tennessee at my folks house and I'm planning on bringing them back with me after I go home to visit this summer. If I was to bring an SKS I have back along with the several mags I have for it, would the mags be Illegal under the proposed ban?

have em mail the mags before the enactment date.

[cfortune]

have em mail the mags before the enactment date.

Yeah I'd get on this if I were you.


Hell, I've been buying mags for guns I don't even own in the event I do end up buying one.

[JMBD2112]

I'm going back for two weeks at the end of May, I was just curious. The question is since I already own the mags, and I'm a resident of Colorado, would bringing them across state lines be Illegal?

[dwalker460]

Who is going to ask you? And as near as I can tell there is no provision in the badly written POS bill that deals with folks who ****gasp**** might travel around the country or move here from other parts of the world.

[JMBD2112]

I'm really not worried about it, I plan on bringing all my stuff back when I come back in the first week of June. Plus we're driving so....

[mtnrider]

I don't recall seeing it but was there any verbiage in this anti American bill that related to what you could use the mags in. ie: If I purchase a new AR next August after this goes into effect can you use your old standard capacity magazines in it?

.

[Kraven251]

pretty much is a piece of legislation that is DOA, since it pretty much suspends innocent until proven guilty

[MAP]

I don't recall seeing it but was there any verbiage in this anti American bill that related to what you could use the mags in. ie: If I purchase a new AR next August after this goes into effect can you use your old standard capacity magazines in it?

.

It didn't address that at all. You can use them in any rifle. Remember to follow the new transfer laws!

Mike

[cfortune]

It didn't address that at all. You can use them in any rifle. Remember to follow the new transfer laws!

Mike


Is that also a 7/1/13 thing or when does the UBC stuff go into effect?

[Bailey Guns]

Ya know what? Fuck 'em. I have what I have and the state can kiss my ass.

[Fromk]

Today a judge declared that NYC sugar drink size ban null because it was unenforcable and poorly written. I know the fight for that isn't over but it gave me a glimmer of hope for that situation and ours.

[Fmedges]

pretty much is a piece of legislation that is DOA, since it pretty much suspends innocent until proven guilty

How so?

[Rucker61]

Sen Lundberg stated that the mag ban is about PARTY POLITICS (those from Washington and from Mayor Bloomberg), not about safety.
I can't recall ONE DEM Sen. (except Hodge) that spoke on behalf of defending HB 1224.

The DEMS did not HAVE to speak...they went into the bill wth a 20 to 15 lead. By speaking, they only risked the chance of LOSING a vote.

Dem Sen Hodge (I think ) spoke only a few times:
1) Introduced/Motioned the Bill & cited all the mass tragedies (including mistakenly VA Tech)
2) Asked for an AYE Vote on the bill
3) Asked for NAY Vote on proposed amendment #1
4) Asked for NAY Vote on proposed amendment #2

She hastened her Rubeneque figure to the well in response to one amendment, the one exempting active and veteran military from HB 13-1224, claiming that "we have too much PTSD to be trusted". Trusted enough to fight your wars, trusted enough to be the sheepdog to protect your sheep, but please do so in 15 rounds or less.

[Romer]

I went back through my e-mail and found all the receipts since I ordered on-line and saved them as PDFs. Can't prove that each Mag is the one in the receipt, but at least I can show 24 PMAGs and reciepts with dates for 24 PMAGs.

I can't believe they passed this one. The No online CCW training by itself I could understand, this one as you guys said is unenforecable.

[mtnhack]

<p>
So I have one. If you are from out of state and move here with a mag dated after July 1, 2013 A.F. (After Fuckheads) am I allowed to move here with them?</p>

[KestrelBike]

The bill says the burden of proof is on the prosecution; however Sen. Lundberg (I think it was him) said during the lop-sided "debate" on Friday that generally what might happen is that the mag and the weapon will be confiscated as evidence.
Since it will be expensive to defend yourself in court, a plea bargain will be entered in which the defendant gives up the mag and gun in exchange for the prosecution dropping the charges.

Also, if one can't distinguish one mag fro another, one cannot prove that the "receipt" one has , or the picture with the newspaper one has etc. applies to THAT specific mag. So as you point out, it is impossible, in most cases, to prove the mag was yours before 01JUL13. Even for mags WITH date codes or that are not made anymore, it is difficult to prove that YOU owned it before 01JUL13 and did not get it from a buddy on 02JUL13.

In theory, every range could be visited by "the mag police" , and you could be "challenged" each tie you pull out a mag.

x1000000. I thought at first of dremel'ing all my soon-to-be-"legal" pmags of their date-stamp, but this is not a good scenario to test. in the *very* remote chance that a cop sees dremel marks, that might in some BS manner give him "probable" cause to hold the mags as evidence until you prove yourself innocent. IE Plea bargain in which you give up your property.

[sniper7]

Fuck that. It is up to the prosecution to prove you didn't own it. Bring in your evidence like pictures with newspaper or a dated receipt or the order confirmation from magpul and tell the prosecution to kiss your ass without a lawyer. Plus the dated ones prior to July 2013 are even more proof.

[roberth]

Who is going to check our magazines? Does anyone think law enforcement has time for this shit? They have better things to do than check date codes on magazines, especially since the assumption can be made that if you're out and about with magazines you very likely owned them prior to 7/1/13.

[ChunkyMonkey]

I will not comply!

[Fmedges]

Anybody that tries to disarm me for a bullshit reason is going to pay with their life, period.

[Bailey Guns]

Fuck that. It is up to the prosecution to prove you didn't own it. Bring in your evidence like pictures with newspaper or a dated receipt or the order confirmation from magpul and tell the prosecution to kiss your ass without a lawyer. Plus the dated ones prior to July 2013 are even more proof.

I wouldn't offer them shit. If they can prove it, then prove it.

[ben4372]

Yeah I'd get on this if I were you.


Hell, I've been buying mags for guns I don't even own in the event I do end up buying one.

I though I was the only one that did this kind of nonsense. I bought a gun once because I got the mags on sale.

[james_bond_007]

I'm going back for two weeks at the end of May, I was just curious. The question is since I already own the mags, and I'm a resident of Colorado, would bringing them across state lines be Illegal?

If doing this before 01JUL13 - NO
Not unless you drove through a state that has them banned (such as NY; note- I'm not implying that you might go through NY, just using it as an example).

If doing this on/after 01JUL13 - YES
The bill also says you must own and maintain continuous possession of the mags being grandfathered in.
Note: Continuous Possession is not defined in the bill
In a case where you own them, and they are located in TENN, and you try to bring them back after 01JUL13, you MAY have not satisfied the "maintain continuous possession" clause.

[ben4372]

Does it address travel? as in going to Wyoming. then coming back across the border.

[james_bond_007]

So what does "maintain continuous possession" mean ?

If I leave them at home when I go to work, have I relinquished my possession of them ?

Do I have to prevent any other person's access to them by, perhaps, locking them in a safe with me being the only one to know the combination ?

EX: I understand (and maybe incorrectly...someone jump in if I am off base) that there may be circumstances when a convicted felon OWNS a weapon, but is not in possession of it. Such as if he/she owns several weapons, serves time, is released and returns home. If he/she owned any weapons, he/she STILL owns those weapons, but cannot POSSESS them. They often have to be given to others or sold by another on the felon's behalf.

[JMBD2112]

If doing this before 01JUL13 - NO
Not unless you drove through a state that has them banned (such as NY; note- I'm not implying that you might go through NY, just using it as an example).

If doing this on/after 01JUL13 - YES
The bill also says you must own and maintain continuous possession of the mags being grandfathered in.
Note: Continuous Possession is not defined in the bill
In a case where you own them, and they are located in TENN, and you try to bring them back after 01JUL13, you MAY have not satisfied the "maintain continuous possession" clause.

That's what I was getting at, but unless they catch it in transit, they couldn't prove it other wise

[james_bond_007]

Does it address travel? as in going to Wyoming. then coming back across the border.

HB-1224 does not address this.

It seems like coming back to Colorado WITH the mag presents a possible issue.
There is no good way to prove the exact mag you are transporting was grandfathered in.

POSSIBLE SCENARIOS:
1) Mag (w or w/o date code) could have been yours prior to 01JUL13 and you are just bringing it back
2) Mag has a date code prior to 01JUL13, COULD have been purchased outside of CO, and you are bringing in contraband
3) Mag with NO date code COULD have been purchased outside of CO and you are bringing in contraband

If a LEO stops you (and wants to pursue arrest based on finding a contraband mag) the LEO can't tell which scenario is occurring. The LEO is likely to err on the side of caution, arrest you, confiscate the mag (and perhaps the rifle as well) and let the courts sort it out, most likely at YOUR expense.

[james_bond_007]

That's what I was getting at 007, but unless they catch it in transit, they couldn't prove it other wise

In my opinion, (and that's not saying much[facepalm]) , the transit part does not have anything to do with it. As I read the bill, it has to do with own and possess prior to 01JUL13
AND
the inability to distinguish a specific mag owned and possessed prior to 01JUL13 and post 01JUL13
AND
the cost to secure justice.

It seems like the "Mag Police" could find you at a range with a legally grandfathered mag, and arrest you for probable cause of having contraband and confiscate your mag(s) and rifle.
You will be faced with
1) Go to trial and suffer the expensive burden of defending yourself (Note: They don't have to HAVE a case; they just have to prolong things and make it painfully expensive for you to pursue your case at trial)
You MAY LIKELY win....but it WON'T be cheap.

2) Plea bargain, probably trading your mag and rifle for dismissal of your case, because you choose the cheaper way out.

The mag having a pre-ban date code, by itself, does not constitute a "legally grandfathered mag". It is coupled by WHEN you acquired ownership and IF you ever relinquished continuous possession.

...and please steer me in the right direction if you believe I'm "missing something" in some way [Beer]

[james_bond_007]

That's what I was getting at, but unless they catch it in transit, they couldn't prove it other wise

How about yet another scenario:

1) You arrive in TENN on 30JUN13
2) You go get your mags (and even buy some more mags from your friends back in TENN)
3) You now own and possess mags prior to 01JUL13 (NOTE: HB1224 does not say anything about WHERE you can own and possess them).
4) You return to Colorado on 06JUL13 with the mags (giving yourself time for your hangover from the party on the 4th to go away before driving back[ROFL1])

Technically, you have met all requirements of HB1224 and own and possess legally grandfathered mags.

....but try telling that to the cop that stops you on your way back.[Bang]

[Great-Kazoo]

How about yet another scenario:

1) You arrive in TENN on 30JUN13
2) You go get your mags (and even buy some more mags from your friends back in TENN)
3) You now own and possess mags prior to 01JUL13 (NOTE: HB1224 does not say anything about WHERE you can own and possess them).
4) You return to Colorado on 06JUL13 with the mags (giving yourself time for your hangover from the party on the 4th to go away before driving back[ROFL1])

Technically, you have met all requirements of HB1224 and own and possess legally grandfathered mags.

....but try telling that to the cop that stops you on your way back.[Bang]

Telling them WHAT?? Like dude i'm running mags to the state of CO.
OR, Sure Officer please search my vehicle, by all means i'll sign anything you ask[facepalm] Some of you guys hysterics over this shit is beyond insane.
OMG WHAT IF????????????????????
WHAT IF WHAT? What if you get stopped. Follow procedure SHUT UP, don't ramble and break out in a sweat like come cocaine cowboy runnin 40 keys of columbian toothpaste.
You act or look guilty and any seasoned LE will smell it on you like aftershave on prom night.

[brutal]

I for one am resisting the urge to even comment on something none of us should postulate on until we see how the ""law" for lack of a better term is written.

I just don't see the enforceability.

[james_bond_007]

Telling them WHAT?? Like dude i'm running mags to the state of CO.
OR, Sure Officer please search my vehicle, by all means i'll sign anything you ask[facepalm] Some of you guys hysterics over this shit is beyond insane.
OMG WHAT IF????????????????????
WHAT IF WHAT? What if you get stopped. Follow procedure SHUT UP, don't ramble and break out in a sweat like come cocaine cowboy runnin 40 keys of columbian toothpaste.
You act or look guilty and any seasoned LE will smell it on you like aftershave on prom night.

Jim, you never fail to entertain me with your responses. All seem to center around SOMETHING to do with too much or not enough use of some kind of SEARCH function [ROFL2]

You know darn well what I was getting at with my "Scenario"...[Coffee]

[brokenscout]

I see a lot more police shootings where " criminals"(former law abiding citizens) are shot. And then it is covered up.

[Kraven251]

Duck Season, Rabbit Season, Duck Season, Rabbit Season ...Gun Owner Season, it just came in and we are going to have to deal with it until we can get this shit off the books.

[Great-Kazoo]

Duck Season, Rabbit Season, Duck Season, Rabbit Season ...Gun Owner Season, it just came in and we are going to have to deal with it until we can get this shit off the books.

[LOL][ROFL2][LOL] http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4556205339181759&pid=15.1



http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4928080721414166&pid=15.1 I say son, DOG spells GUN