July 1st 2013 Changes to the Trading Post

[J]

Unfortunately, the legislature has not voted favorably for us. We dislike it as much as you all do. But we do have to safeguard the future of this club, our site, and responsible parties. This thread will be amended if any bills fail during House re-visit, or at the Governors desk, but that is not foreseeable at this time.

That being said, we will be instituting some changes to the Trading Post as the new bills go into effect as law. If you have any suggestions to improve this, I am happy to listen as responses to this thread, but you will have to be pretty convincing and within the law to change this upcoming procedure. Please post any comments or suggestions to this thread.

Sometime in the AM hours of 30 JUN 2013 we will be shutting down the trading post to all members. There will be no access. During that time we will remove all posts in any of the trading post sections to an archive that only staff members can see. The only section of the trading post that will remain is the feedback section. We will also close down the acknowledgement thread about the trading post terms and conditions. All acknowledgements will be removed from that thread.

We will be instituting these new conditions that you must agree to for using the trading post:

You must list in any ads for a firearm (or anything considered to be a firearm, e.g. a lower) that an FFL transfer is required.
If you are selling a firearm, you must list a preferred FFL to conduct the transfer, however you may inidicate that you are flexible to use other FFLs as agreed upon between the seller and buyer.
Similar to #2, any "wanted" ads for a firearm will need to list a preferred FFL, but may leave it up to negotiation the same.
All magazines prohibited by HB13-1224 may not be listed on the site. This includes any detachable magazine with more than 15 rounds capacity, or for a shotgun any detachable magazine over 8 rounds capacity. It also includes any shotgun that uses tubular feeding devices that hold more than 28" of shotgun shells.
All extensions for magazines that can bring the capacity over the limits set in HB13-1224 will also be disallowed from the trading post.
No firearms will be allowed for sale, trade or wanted ads if that sale includes a magazine exceeding the limits of HB13-1224. You may sell it without mags, or get some non-banned magazines to sell with it.
Absolutely NO magazine "repair" or "parts" kits that seek to circumvent HB13-1224 will be allowed to be sold on this site. Springs and followers are still allowed.


You will all have to re-agree to the terms and conditions before you can post in the trading post. You won't be able to post in the trading post until you agree. You can then re-list any pending items that you had in there prior to 30 JUN 2013 so long as you don't violate these rules.

At the sole discretion of any staff member, any violating post will be immediately deleted and a warning will be sent to you for violating a minor section of the rules, or the post will be deleted and you will be given a 90 day timeout from the trading post. Egregious violations (repetitive problems or openly and deliberately disobeying the law) will earn you these aforementioned penalties and a minimum 1 month timeout from the entire site.

Sucks that we have to do this, but we do HAVE to do this for the future security of the entire club. Other sites are planning to stop allowing firearms classifieds in CO after the legislation goes into effect. We are doing everything we can to allow this to keep running, and minimize the risk of it being forcibly shut down due to non-compliance.

Thanks Brothers and Sisters--

--J

[brokenscout]

This makes me sad:(

[Ronin13]

Thanks for the heads-up J... it's a shame you had to do this, and a shame that our once-great state is sliding in this dark direction.

[EvilRhino]

Due to the poor wording of the magazine bill;

Any magazine that is easily or readily converted to hold more than 15 rounds i.e. a +2 extension. I'm not sure if there is any way to add 6 to a 10 rounder, but it will kill mags like G22, G19, etc. Short of only allowing 10 rounders, not sure how to CYA.

[colo-pr]

i completely understand your position, make all of us sad but say thanks to the dems.

for me, i will try to not sell anything because like the Senator "I will not obey this law"

;-)

[Sharpienads]

Sucks, but understandable.

[madmike283]

What's the deal about mag extensions? They aren't expressly forbidden in the bill, right? So why would they not be allowed for sale? It's not like a lot of those pop up in the Trading Post anyway, but technically they aren't illegal, right? Just curious and throwing it out there for some thought.

[hurley842002]

What's the deal about mag extensions? They aren't expressly forbidden in the bill, right? So why would they not be allowed for sale? It's not like a lot of those pop up in the Trading Post anyway, but technically they aren't illegal, right? Just curious and throwing it out there for some thought.

Mag extensions are not illegal, so long as they don't bring the overall capacity over 15 rounds. For example, you could have a ten round low capacity Glock mag, and put a +2 extension on it. With that said, the way I understand the bill, you'd be screwed trying to sell a Glock 19 with a 15 round mag, because you could put an extension on it. Seems to me we will either be selling our pistols without mags, or purchasing low capacity "ban state" mags. This is how I understand things, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[SuperiorDG]

I'm done selling my stuff. BTW: Once you delete all the posts can I get back all the stuff I wish now I never sold? [oops]

[n8tive97]

Well this sucks... love our libs....

[palepainter]

Thanks for the heads up!! It is a sad day. But fortunate for me, I lost all my stuff in a boating accident, no worries anymore.

[Gunner]

That's such bull. I knew this post was coming

[Gunner]

So are we allowed to list Marijuana for sale since hickenlooper is okay allowing drugs be legal?

[J]

That's such bull. I knew this post was coming

I agree, but it is what we must do to keep the community protected.

[brokenscout]

Without the Trading Post at least the Mods can hopefully take a break:)

[hurley842002]

I agree, but it is what we must do to keep the community protected.

I hate this like everyone else, however I completely understand the need, thank you for giving a heads up.

[madmike283]

Mag extensions are not illegal, so long as they don't bring the overall capacity over 15 rounds. For example, you could have a ten round low capacity Glock mag, and put a +2 extension on it. With that said, the way I understand the bill, you'd be screwed trying to sell a Glock 19 with a 15 round mag, because you could put an extension on it. Seems to me we will either be selling our pistols without mags, or purchasing low capacity "ban state" mags. This is how I understand things, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Well, close. #1, if the mag extensions themselves are not illegal, then they shouldn't be disallowed on any classified ad in CO. I currently have x number of any magazine. If I understand it correctly, I can take any magazine that I currently have and slap on a magazine extension at any point from now until it decomposes or I die. Once signed, the only thing the law will prohibit me from doing is buying and/or selling any magazine that is capable of, or easily converted to hold 15+ rounds. The law isn't written to forbid the expansion of currently owned magazines, at any point in time, as far as I can tell.

Anyone else have any input?

[Great-Kazoo]

Due to the poor wording of the magazine bill;

Any magazine that is easily or readily converted to hold more than 15 rounds i.e. a +2 extension. I'm not sure if there is any way to add 6 to a 10 rounder, but it will kill mags like G22, G19, etc. Short of only allowing 10 rounders, not sure how to CYA.


Advertise them as Having a"permanent" mag modification to allow only 15 rounds to be loaded. Unless you're a mechanical idiot it's easy to do.

[J]

You could legally put one on a magazine that was over the limit and grandfathered, or under the limit and remains that way even after the extension. Adding the extension that bumped you over 15 rounds after the fact would be prohibited as you didn't possess a high capacity magazine on the date the law taking effect.

Mag extensions will only be disallowed if they would bring a magazine from less than 15 rounds to over 15 rounds.

[blacklabel]

Sucks but I appreciate the mods taking steps to protect us.

[BlasterBob]

Damn sad that such laws are passed by people who did not have enough sense to do the proper amount of research prior to passing them!

[spleify]

Thanks for the understanding and patience with this folks. I think you all know this is not our choice but like J mentioned its what we need to do to keep the site and all of its members safe and on the up and up.

So if/when this all rolls out just be patient and know we are all working hard to make this as seamless as possible and as easy to accomplish as possible.

[Zundfolge]

The new changes suck, but at least COAR15 isn't pussing out like RMGO (who claim they're just going to completely shut down Colorado Gun Market (http://www.cologunmarket.com/) because of 1229).

[DeusExMachina]

I'm not really sure why the site has determined to police it's members. It never has before.

Just because a bunch of new laws may pass, suddenly the board has to police itself?

I'm now saddened by this than anything else. Were the Germans so quick to turn in those suspected of being Jewish? I suppose so.

Edit: I'm not condoning illegal activities, by any means. What I'm saying is leave it to personal responsibility.

Example: There was never any rule against selling standard capacity magazines to Denver residents. Or requirement of any language thereof.

[madmike283]

You could legally put one on a magazine that was over the limit and grandfathered, or under the limit and remains that way even after the extension. Adding the extension that bumped you over 15 rounds after the fact would be prohibited as you didn't possess a high capacity magazine on the date the law taking effect.

Mag extensions will only be disallowed if they would bring a magazine from less than 15 rounds to over 15 rounds.

Alright, I understand a bit better now. So the sale of a mag extension may, or may not be legal with no way to tell. So many fucking holes in this shit it's completely ridiculous. I know, I know. Preaching to the choir.

[J]

I'm not really sure why the site has determined to police it's members. It never has before.

Just because a bunch of new laws may pass, suddenly the board has to police itself?

I'm now saddened by this than anything else. Were the Germans so quick to turn in those suspected of being Jewish? I suppose so.

Take a minute and calm your emotions before they get the best of you. There WILL be stings in this after the laws pass. We must make sure preserving this community is a priority. Perhaps you heard about the lawsuits filed against arms list?

I don't want the site shut down or have myself or Marlin served with a suit or injunction because we have some sting go on here that we "facilitated" by letting it happen. An injunction or suit would likely result in permanent closing of the Trading Post at a minimum, and shutting down the site as a possibility.

[Tinelement]

Totally understand this.

Atleast we are able to keep it open!

I have meet most of our forum members through transactions, which led to BS, which led to shooting, which led to beers, which led to friendships.

[newracer]

Rather than having all that info required in each thread couldn't you just have a sticky with all the conditions? Or even better have a screen that the thread starter must agree to the conditions.

[J]

At this point we want it in each post. But we will discuss your suggestion.

[Gunner]

Sucks but I appreciate the mods taking steps to protect us.

Agree completely

[Danimal]

Thanks for the heads up. Seems reasonable, and we all need to work together to keep in line with all state laws. This is kinda the last nail in the coffin for me staying in Colorado. I started looking for work out of state today, but I guess I will see where that takes me. This fourm has been great to me over the years and it is thanks to mods and admin working their asses of to keep this place up and running. Thanks again for all you guys do.

[Marlin]

I'm not really sure why the site has determined to police it's members. It never has before.

Just because a bunch of new laws may pass, suddenly the board has to police itself?

I'm now saddened by this than anything else. Were the Germans so quick to turn in those suspected of being Jewish? I suppose so.

Edit: I'm not condoning illegal activities, by any means. What I'm saying is leave it to personal responsibility.

Example: There was never any rule against selling standard capacity magazines to Denver residents. Or requirement of any language thereof.

I'll put it this way; Don't like it, get the fuck out. Simple enough?

[th3w01f]

Ok, this is about as liberal as I go but I think it's also a good idea for us to look out (to a certain extent) for each other and people who are new to firearms. By having these rules the Mods are not only protecting the site but also protecting some ignorant people from themselves. Just like with NFA there are a lot of what I consider stupid laws that can get you in a lot of trouble very quickly if you haven't done the research.

I know you can't save everyone and if you're stupid enough you deserve it, blah, blah.... but I'd hate to see someone arrested because of a misunderstanding of one of the laws.

For instance, posting a rifle for sale with what looks like a 30rd mag, even if the mag isn't for sale might be enough to get the .gov to harass the seller and the site.

Now before you flame me I think is sucks that it has come to this but it is what it is for the time being.

[J]

Agreed. My bigger worry is a court coming after the site for facilitating the sale if one slipped through due to ignorance or willful disobedience. It wouldn't be hard to get a court injunction telling us we can't allow sales facilitated here if one went bad and ended up in court. I for one value the Trading Post, and don't want to see it forced into closure.

[DeusExMachina]

I'll put it this way; Don't like it, get the fuck out. Simple enough?

I see the Nazi Germany comparison wasn't so far off. Awesome attitude. Is this where you threaten to make me leave for starting a discussion on why the site is so eager to jump onto the legislature's lap? Where has the law enforcement policies of the forum been until now? Are we not adult enough to know how to avoid breaking laws?

I can see it now. Some guy forgets to put all the requisit stipulations. In a few months time, this will cause 5 members to jump down his throat about conducting an illegal trade.

[J]

Pssst... you realize that is the site owner you speak to, right? I warned you to check your emotions, as I sympathize with it. I have them too, but I have to take logic over emotion to protect our club. It seems that you failed to heed my advice.

I don't know if I'd consider this Nazi Germany, but it is also not a democracy. Sorry, but ain't so.

Please review my previous comments. With the suits and injunctions released recently, we don't want to lose the trading post here, or god forbid the site in general because someone messed up a sale in the TP.

Everyone agrees to the rules, and will be expected to follow them. As you can see in my OP, the punishment will be decided at the discretion of site staff. Just like now, it is pretty common that people don't put values to trade ads, we don't slam them into a wall. The same will be true for honest mistakes on these points.

But I don't want to lose the TP here, looks like we will lose the RMGO cologunmarket with these bills. Talk is that armslist may not be too keen on Colorado sales. This might be all we have left. We need to make sure we protect it so that a few idiots don't bring about its demise. Is that so Nazi-esque? Is it so unbearable?

I think not.

[Great-Kazoo]

I see the Nazi Germany comparison wasn't so far off. Awesome attitude. Is this where you threaten to make me leave for starting a discussion on why the site is so eager to jump onto the legislature's lap? Where has the law enforcement policies of the forum been until now? Are we not adult enough to know how to avoid breaking laws?

I can see it now. Some guy forgets to put all the requisit stipulations. In a few months time, this will cause 5 members to jump down his throat about conducting an illegal trade.


There are TP RULES in place. WHICH 20% do not follow now. The hysteria and "connotation" about on lne gun sales combined with a sting operation, could make the MODS / Owners liable and face jail time for facilitating ILLEGAL Sales. It could also under RICO and or the patriot Act have every member Detained, Questioned, Charged and or Imprisoned as an accomplice.
That's the Germany you referred to.

[Marlin]

I see the Nazi Germany comparison wasn't so far off. Awesome attitude. Is this where you threaten to make me leave for starting a discussion on why the site is so eager to jump onto the legislature's lap? Where has the law enforcement policies of the forum been until now? Are we not adult enough to know how to avoid breaking laws?

I can see it now. Some guy forgets to put all the requisit stipulations. In a few months time, this will cause 5 members to jump down his throat about conducting an illegal trade.


Calling me a nazi,, Hmmmmm,, Illinios nazi I hope.. Now granted I would prefer not to have to do this. But, there s certain realities that are coming. And until we can get the criminal acts corrected, I really don't feel like having dorkenlooper sending his jack booted thugs to my door. Now, if you open your own site, and run a free for all in the trade section, feel free. Up until now we haven't found it needed for the "law enforcement policies" to play a major part in any trade conducted from the site. As long as the interested parties did their thing, be just an exchange or, running it through a ffl. Now it seems the way the commies in the state house have written these bs laws, we need to do a little CYA for the site. Now if this is "jumping into the legislatures lap" in your opinion, so be it. If you are just unable to live with this, or think we are caving into the gun grabbers, well the invitation too leave still stands.

[Dave]

[Cry]

[Goodburbon]

So we're going to bend over backwards to appease them ....really? That's how we stand? God what a bunch of jello.

Why don't you just leave the trading post as is, leave it up to the end user to make the decision to comply with these onerous laws or not. Stop trying to enforce the law for the government.

[Goodburbon]

There are TP RULES in place. WHICH 20% do not follow now. The hysteria and "connotation" about on lne gun sales combined with a sting operation, could make the MODS / Owners liable and face jail time for facilitating ILLEGAL Sales. It could also under RICO and or the patriot Act have every member Detained, Questioned, Charged and or Imprisoned as an accomplice.
That's the Germany you referred to.


I havent' seen anything in these bills that could be construed to hold the owners/admins of this site responsible for squat.


I guess the Molon Labe on the back of my new COar15 hat means, (don't worry we've already taken them from ourselves.)

[J]

Another one of you? Read the comments to the thread.

If a sale is caught going through this site, Marlin, Myself and possible others could be charged or sued for facilitating the transfer. Not to mention an injunction would be almost immediate to close the TP and stop letting people sell/buy through the site, or even close the site down entirely.

Other sites that do the sales are in talks of closing down.

I'm losing patience here, FAST! I've been trying to be patient, as we all hate these laws.

[funkfool]

GGGAAAAAHHHHH!
Just remember what Freedom felt like and vow a return to it.
(Or at least some freedom.... what they would allow us... my - we have fallen far.... :*(

That said... I will follow the rules of this site for any and all transactions conducted through here.

[J]

Accessory to a crime is already on the statutes. Facilitating any illegal act is already illegal.

[Goodburbon]

Would wal mart be held repsonsible if a drug deal goes down in the parking lot?

same thing.

[jerrymrc]

So we're going to bend over backwards to appease them ....really? That's how we stand? God what a bunch of jello.

Why don't you just leave the trading post as is, leave it up to the end user to make the decision to comply with these onerous laws or not. Stop trying to enforce the law for the government.

Your not doing yourself any favors here. You want to argue with the Boss send him a PM.

[TheGrey]

We will be instituting these new conditions that you must agree to for using the trading post:

You must list in any ads for a firearm (or anything considered to be a firearm, e.g. a lower) that an FFL transfer is required.
If you are selling a firearm, you must list a preferred FFL to conduct the transfer, however you may inidicate that you are flexible to use other FFLs as agreed upon between the seller and buyer.
Similar to #2, any "wanted" ads for a firearm will need to list a preferred FFL, but may leave it up to negotiation the same.
All magazines prohibited by HB13-1226 may not be listed on the site. This includes any detachable magazine with more than 15 rounds capacity, or for a shotgun any detachable magazine over 8 rounds capacity. It also includes any shotgun that uses tubular feeding devices that hold more than 28" of shotgun shells.
All extensions for magazines that can bring the capacity over the limits set in HB13-1224 will also be disallowed from the trading post.
No firearms will be allowed for sale, trade or wanted ads if that sale includes a magazine exceeding the limits of HB13-1224. You may sell it without mags, or get some non-banned magazines to sell with it.


You will all have to re-agree to the terms and conditions before you can post in the trading post. You won't be able to post in the trading post until you agree. You can then re-list any pending items that you had in there prior to 30 JUN 2013 so long as you don't violate these rules.

At the sole discretion of any staff member, any violating post will be immediately deleted and a warning will be sent to you for violating a minor section of the rules, or the post will be deleted and you will be given a 90 day timeout from the trading post. Egregious violations (repetitive problems or openly and deliberately disobeying the law) will earn you these aforementioned penalties and a minimum 1 month timeout from the entire site.

we do HAVE to do this for the future security of the entire club. Other sites are planning to stop allowing firearms classifieds in CO after the legislation goes into effect. We are doing everything we can to allow this to keep running, and minimize the risk of it being forcibly shut down due to non-compliance.

Thanks Brothers and Sisters--

--J

Understood. It's your sandbox, and in order for us to continue the way we'd like to (in addition to reminding us which hoops have to be jumped through to be in compliance) we'll have to play the game. Thanks for not closing the TP down, despite a few that apparently feel reckless enough to push the envelope and bite the hand that feeds them.

[sellersm]

Are you shutting down the entire TP? Including non-firearm sales and ammo/reloading sales? Will those all be 'wiped out' as well? We all wish it were different...

[hurley842002]

Simplest way to put it, THIS IS A PRIVATELY OWNED SITE, the owner and mods are doing what they believe is in the best interest of the site, themselves, and the members. I don't like what has happened anymore than the rest of you, but I will respect the staff members requests, or I'll get the fu$% out, I prefer respect.

[jerrymrc]

Are you shutting down the entire TP? Including non-firearm sales and ammo/reloading sales? Will those all be 'wiped out' as well? We all wish it were different...

Not at all. In reading again...... The TP section has a trigger that is you can't see it without posting in the acknowledgement thread. I think that the couple of areas that are not affected by the new laws can be left as-is.

[Goodburbon]

Your not doing yourself any favors here. You want to argue with the Boss send him a PM.


No thanks, If I take issue with something they're doing, I'll have the balls to do so publicly.

[spongejosh]

This seems like a reasonable response to keep the board running and some ability to sell private party alive.

Suggestion/question:

Would it be possible to have a disclaimer pop up before a trading post thread is submitted? I'm imagining either an actual popup after hitting submit or a check box on the "compose" screen saying you understand the laws and the site's conditions. If it's not acknowledged your post gets canned. Just as a CYA step for you guys. We know the libtards already want to go after everyone who ever knew the gun existed if it's used in a crime. If possible, this could also automatically place a disclaimer in the post about the need for using an FFL and observing applicable laws.

Probably a lot of work but maybe J can do that in his sleep?

[th3w01f]

Would wal mart be held repsonsible if a drug deal goes down in the parking lot?

same thing.

I don't think your analogy applies, since this is an actively monitored site (by the mods and owner) I think someone dealing drugs right outside the manager’s office would be a better analogy. Are they going to get in trouble the first time.. probably not, but who wants to take that chance.

[Goodburbon]

I don't think your analogy applies, since this is an actively monitored site (by the mods and owner) I think someone dealing drugs right outside the manager’s office would be a better analogy. Are they going to get in trouble the first time.. probably not, but who wants to take that chance.


Ok easy enough. Stop moderating so much, then it can't be argued that it's "monitored".[Flower]


BOOM! Freedom wins all around.


Or we could go the other way I guess, they've already expressed a propensity to do so regularly.

[J]

This seems like a reasonable response to keep the board running and some ability to sell private party alive.

Suggestion/question:

Would it be possible to have a disclaimer pop up before a trading post thread is submitted? I'm imagining either an actual popup after hitting submit or a check box on the "compose" screen saying you understand the laws and the site's conditions. If it's not acknowledged your post gets canned. Just as a CYA step for you guys. We know the libtards already want to go after everyone who ever knew the gun existed if it's used in a crime. If possible, this could also automatically place a disclaimer in the post about the need for using an FFL and observing applicable laws.

Probably a lot of work but maybe J can do that in his sleep?

Its not super simple, and I'd rather an accept it once and be done approach, but I'll see what it takes to implement it in this platform and discuss it with the staff.

[J]

Goodbourbon:

You will not be the first named person in a lawsuit or an injunction, I will. I appreciate your conviction to freedom and admire it, but as your freedom infringes on mine by transacting here possibly illegally, I will reserve the right to "do whatever the goddamn hell I feel is best".

Hope you understand, but I don't require it. That is about as blunt as I can put it.

[Goodburbon]

Don't have the balls to stand up for what's right? Sell the site to someone who does.

And I'll let that be the end of my protest.

[J]

Not sure who did it, but good riddance.

[GilpinGuy]

Divide and conquer. We shouldn't be fighting among ourselves here.

The new "rules" seem reasonable given the new laws.

[sabot_round]

Tracking like a VCR. Thanks for the heads up J!!

[jerrymrc]

Don't have the balls to stand up for what's right? Sell the site to someone who does.

And I'll let that be the end of my protest.

You think that the staff is just laying over? You have no clue and once again you pick stupid fights and say stupid things. Since you have the balls to "Stand Up" I will read about how you made the headlines tomorrow.

One must learn to pick there battles and for some reason you want to pick it with the site again. [Bang]

And he is not Perma-Banned but this is strike two. The boss may have other ideas.

[Marlin]

Okay, Since you are to Stupid to figure it out on your own, This has NOTHING to do with Freedom. It has to do with bending to unjust laws. And, until such a time as that law is revoked, accommodations must be made. Now, if you have the spirit of your convictions, start working to get a "friendlier" government elected. Then we can lose it. Until then live with it.

[J]

Thanks guys. My goal here is not to "give in" or "let up" but make sure our community can stay operating for years to come, the trading post and all.

People are quick to judge when it isn't their skin on the line. I don't want to have to be a defendant in court because we didn't take appropriate actions on our site. Who does? None of the critics I'm sure.

But additionally... what if the court case ends with COAR no longer being allowed to have a TP, or no longer allowed to EXIST????

That is what I'm trying to avoid!

[Bailey Guns]

Maybe it's just me but I didn't find the new rules, or the reasoning for the new rules, too hard to comprehend. I guess some others do/did. Go figure.

[DeusExMachina]

It just seems like breaking not bending, even before they are passed. I understand not wanting to be a test case, but wouldn't a sticky suffice compared to active policing? If only to make it easier on the mods.

[10mm-man]

You think that the staff is just laying over? You have no clue and once again you pick stupid fights and say stupid things. Since you have the balls to "Stand Up" I will read about how you made the headlines tomorrow.

One must learn to pick there battles and for some reason you want to pick it with the site again. [Bang]

And he is not Perma-Banned but this is strike two. The boss may have other ideas.


Okay, Since you are to Stupid to figure it out on your own, This has NOTHING to do with Freedom. It has to do with bending to unjust laws. And, until such a time as that law is revoked, accommodations must be made. Now, if you have the spirit of your convictions, start working to get a "friendlier" government elected. Then we can lose it. Until then live with it.


Thanks guys. My goal here is not to "give in" or "let up" but make sure our community can stay operating for years to come, the trading post and all.

People are quick to judge when it isn't their skin on the line. I don't want to have to be a defendant in court because we didn't take appropriate actions on our site. Who does? None of the critics I'm sure.

But additionally... what if the court case ends with COAR no longer being allowed to have a TP, or no longer allowed to EXIST????

That is what I'm trying to avoid!


You guys have to ultimately answer to it; therefore you chose the line in the sand and what side you want to stand on it. Hopefully the day will come when people can freely trade without the government watching over our shoulder, until then; it is what it is! Thanks for the heads up and I hope to see someday it restored..............

[ray1970]

Sounds like a solid plan, J.

I'm all in favor of keeping the trading post operating smoothly and in full ccompliance with any and all state and federal laws.

Thanks. [Awesom]

[J]

It just seems like breaking not bending, even before they are passed. I understand not wanting to be a test case, but wouldn't a sticky suffice compared to active policing? If only to make it easier on the mods.

I refer you to this: http://www.ar-15.co/threads/93937-Upcoming-Changes-to-the-Trading-Post?p=1013569&viewfull=1#post1013569

I tried starting this out nice... that hasn't worked.

[J]

Goodbourbon:

You will not be the first named person in a lawsuit or an injunction, I will. I appreciate your conviction to freedom and admire it, but as your freedom infringes on mine by transacting here possibly illegally, I will reserve the right to "do whatever the goddamn hell I feel is best".

Hope you understand, but I don't require it. That is about as blunt as I can put it.

In case you didn't want to follow the link. Here is the content.

[sellersm]

Not at all. In reading again...... The TP section has a trigger that is you can't see it without posting in the acknowledgement thread. I think that the couple of areas that are not affected by the new laws can be left as-is.

Thanks for clarifying.

[sneakerd]

No problems here. I understood the new rules the first time I read it. Follow the law, don't set someone else up for a fall.

[asmo]

Understood. Thank you for trying to find a way to keep the trading post open. It is appreciated.

[jerrymrc]

Hopefully the day will come when people can freely trade without the government watching over our shoulder, until then; it is what it is! Thanks for the heads up and I hope to see someday it restored..............

You have no idea how I pray and want to work for this. What is done is done. We have a year to work on what must be done. I am staying and I am going to fight. I hope ya understand.[Flower]

[Troublco]

Understood, Mr. J, Sir. ; )

Seems like there always has to be one to push a bad position. Odd that it isn't usually one whose chestnuts will be those in the fire...not. It's sad that it's come to this, but pushing it the wrong way isn't going to benefit anyone here.

[Shootersfab]

This is for the good of the site! I agree with everything said............it totally Sucks balls but so does our current gov.

Thanks for trying to find a way to keep the TP.


Ps. I was laughing my Ass off reading earlier posts. Some peoples kids[facepalm]

[Marlin]

Hours of pure monotony, broken up by moments of shear drama.

[20X11]

Mods/owners:
You have my support, understanding, and empathy. Let me know of anything further you require of me to continue enjoying this website. I realize the world (virtual and real) is changing and appreciate the continued flow of information. I trust you will keep me apprised of the additional inconveniences required to "play" in this space.

[10mm-man]

You have no idea how I pray and want to work for this. What is done is done. We have a year to work on what must be done. I am staying and I am going to fight. I hope ya understand.[Flower]


You know were I am at and how to contact me; count me in for the "fight".....

[Dunecrazzy]

Understood.

[DSB OUTDOORS]

I understand and no problems here. Thanks to all the staff for your efforts to keep this sight going!! [Beer]

[NitroxBoss]

Guys,

Thanks for all you have done and all the hard work.

Mark

[hghclsswhitetrsh]

Understood loud and clear!

[SA Friday]

For every post in this thread that I read, "why now all of a sudden are you guys actively moderating the sales threads", you are stupid. We've all had to remove posts in the sales threads that were illegal, and we do it regularly. More than once, the poster didn't even know it was illegal. Ya, you sound really stupid to the staff. We give a shit, get over it.

[mrghost]

No problem here with the future TP rules. A battle remains, but it's not with this forum.

[sroz]

Don't have the balls to stand up for what's right? Sell the site to someone who does.

And I'll let that be the end of my protest.

Rather than suggest they sell, just go start your own site.

Marlin & J - thanks for keeping things going for all of us.

[UncleDave]

Roger that! Sucks that we must bend here to the will of The Empire. [facepalm]

[WETWRKS]

I can understand people being upset with the new rules...but this isn't the fault of the owner, the moderators, or the staff. This all lays at the feet of the liberals in (and out of) Colorado. Get them out of office, get the laws changed, and the rules here will go back to what we are use to.

I may not agree with the moderators about everything they do but I do know they try and play fair with us. I (of all people) know this from personal experience. AND...this isn't their fault.

Thanks guys.

[islandermyk]

Agreed and understood [Beer]

It's a pity with all this energy that was getting blown out of the water being wasted fighting among ourselves... which could've been useful during the gun rally's and shit... shit depresses me seeing gun loving, trigger happy, powder sniffing members crying and beating their chest on here against each other when all that shit could've been done on the capitol.

Sorry... that was my little rant. [Coffee]

[keylay31]

Figured this was coming... Thanks for keeping the Trading Post (and this site) open. I figure volume is going to be down dramatically.

[Clint45]

Agreed and understood. You do whatever you gotta do. Thanks.

[Mazin]

You know what's funny is some members act like this was here to be debated, it's not.

If you have an issue over the staff trying to cover all liabilities as well as keeping the entire site (not just the TP) open then as the end all be all of COAR said "you know where the door is".

There has been a lot of talk to just end the TP and all the BS that's associated with it, frankly I think membership here would thin out tremendously. This site is more than the trade post and if you think by adding the prerequisite of having to list a FFL in your ad and to follow the letter of the law (no matter how much we feel its bs) is too hard to adhere too then please go and use the other online forums and sales sites.

The staff is working hard to protect this community and its Membership and that includes the people who are only here to use the TP and not contribute anything else of value here.


Sent from my Otterbox Defended Tactical iPhone using High Capacity "Clips".

[Musashi]

Understood
Thanks for doing everything you do guys. Let's keep the site legit and spend our energy fighting the good fight and not each other.

[opie011]

Understood.

Thanks guys (mods) for doing all that you do to keep this site running [Beer]

[Great-Kazoo]

The up side of TP changes= Guns will be at FFL pricing , hopefully.

[ChrisC]

Understood
Thanks for doing everything you do guys. Let's keep the site legit and spend our energy fighting the good fight and not each other.

Agree

[StagLefty]

Gotta do what ya gotta do-thanks for protecting the site mods ! [Beer]

[Dingo]

But I don't want to lose the TP here, looks like we will lose the RMGO cologunmarket with these bills. Talk is that armslist may not be too keen on Colorado sales. This might be all we have left. We need to make sure we protect it so that a few idiots don't bring about its demise.

I'm in agreement here. It's going to suck monkey ass having to conduct thru an FFL, but at least it will return the pricing to manageable levels. (At least until the FFLs realize they have us in a vice-grip and follow human nature...) This is a privately-owned site, run by private citizens who have just as much to lose as us. Asking them to risk the legal liability for (how many board members do we have now? Several thousand?)'s unpredictable actions is not much different than the people who are ridiculing private individuals for not being the "one loud voice standing up to the oppressors." The govt is too big and indiscriminate about the morality of it's actions right now. The answer lies in at least attempting to change the makeup of said govt, at least locally.

I still think the TP is a valuable resource even if the FFL requirement is in place. I conduct 90% of my firearms related purchasing/selling on here, for the simple reason that I know most of the main members. The pricing is usually better, there's all kinds of random stuff that is impossible to find elsewhere, and we're cutting out a lot of unscrupulous FFLs/vendors (CTD anyone?) by transacting on here. It's got to be galling for the site owners to have to comply with this ridiculous shit just as it is for us. Unfortunately, it's the law of the land, and this is a reasonable step to preserve a valuable firearms resource in CO. I for one am glad they're not pussing out and giving up on the TP entirely, like the "no compromise gun lobby" is.

[Jer]

Shit just got real, didn't it?

[Dingo]

Yeah, but none of this surprised me or caught me off guard. I've been preparing in my own little way since Aurora, and by end of January had everything I needed. Just disappointed.

[tmleadr03]

Good lord when will people learn. The mods here are temperamental pissy individuals. Piss in their cornflakes, even if you do it more politely then GoodBurbon, and you get your wee wee smack.

Their house, their rules. Don't like it? Too bad. Either live by the rules of the house you are in or go else where.




The other thing I learned in this thread is people do not understand what a Nazi is. Though I actually already knew that. Same with communist and socialist.

ETA: I for one will no longer be mentioning in print anywhere what guns or mags or ammo I may or may not have. In point of fact I think I will now go sell all my guns or throw them away so as to not have the headache of these laws over me. Or any future law. [shithitsfan]

[sellersm]

Hours of pure monotony, broken up by moments of shear drama.

Well said... Thanks for all you guys do, especially you, Mr. Owner!

[Omicron]

Putting in hundreds of hours for free to help members and make this a nice site, only to be told we have no balls and similar comments, tends to make us temperamental pissy bastards. Yes.
[ROFL2]

The worst thing we can do is turn on each other. We need to stick together. Easy to say someone else has no balls when yours aren't on the line... not to mention behind the safety of a computer.

None of us are happy with this, brokenhearted in fact, and frustrated beyond belief. Especially when in addition to the hours on the forum, we were all heavily involved in trying to defeat these retarded bills, via phone calls, door to door efforts, visiting the capital, etc. Soooo frustrating to see our state, and our country for that matter, being destroyed one cut at a time by the libtards.

Best we can hope is the constitutional ammendment that if passed, will negate all these retarded new laws. But until that happens, or we vote the libtards out and get a common sense majority in there that'll revoke these stupid laws, we have to live within them. Sticking together and hanging on to this anger but using it to propel real change in our government - and our society - is what has got to happen.

Those of you who let your frustration turn against the moderating team, or your fellow members, will quickly be shown the door. We feel your pain and anger, but cannot and will not let it tear the community apart. Instead, put your anger to good use by letting it spur action and change WE can freakin believe in - get rid of those idiots. We have no balls? Nope, the people who have no balls are the ones who attack their compatriots.

[sealer]

Putting in hundreds of hours for free to help members and make this a nice site, only to be told we have no balls and similar comments, tends to make us temperamental pissy bastards. Yes.
[ROFL2]

The worst thing we can do is turn on each other. We need to stick together. Easy to say someone else has no balls when yours aren't on the line... not to mention behind the safety of a computer.

None of us are happy with this, brokenhearted in fact, and frustrated beyond belief. Especially when in addition to the hours on the forum, we were all heavily involved in trying to defeat these retarded bills, via phone calls, door to door efforts, visiting the capital, etc. Soooo frustrating to see our state, and our country for that matter, being destroyed one cut at a time by the libtards.

Best we can hope is the constitutional ammendment that if passed, will negate all these retarded new laws. But until that happens, or we vote the libtards out and get a common sense majority in there that'll revoke these stupid laws, we have to live within them. Sticking together and hanging on to this anger but using it to propel real change in our government - and our society - is what has got to happen.

Those of you who let your frustration turn against the moderating team, or your fellow members, will quickly be shown the door. We feel your pain and anger, but cannot and will not let it tear the community apart. Instead, put your anger to good use by letting it spur action and change WE can freakin believe in - get rid of those idiots. We have no balls? Nope, the people who have no balls are the ones who attack their compatriots.



Well said...and props to the site owners and mods.

[sealer]

You know what's funny is some members act like this was here to be debated, it's not.

If you have an issue over the staff trying to cover all liabilities as well as keeping the entire site (not just the TP) open then as the end all be all of COAR said "you know where the door is".

There has been a lot of talk to just end the TP and all the BS that's associated with it, frankly I think membership here would thin out tremendously. This site is more than the trade post and if you think by adding the prerequisite of having to list a FFL in your ad and to follow the letter of the law (no matter how much we feel its bs) is too hard to adhere too then please go and use the other online forums and sales sites.

The staff is working hard to protect this community and its Membership and that includes the people who are only here to use the TP and not contribute anything else of value here.


Sent from my Otterbox Defended Tactical iPhone using High Capacity "Clips".



+10

I'd be lying if I said I don't look at the TP every time I visit the site. I'm always looking for something and enjoy looking at the WTB section as I may have an accessory laying around that could help someone else out.

However, I've probably got more info from sections outside of the TP that are incredibly helpful. I can't say I've found any said sections on other sites. I'm not bashing those sites but CO AR-15 has been, and will hopefully remain, one of the most valuable tools in my range bag.

The best place to ask a "stupid" question without getting thrown under the bus because some person has "keyboard muscles".

[scratchy]

Thanks for the heads up.

[Big E3]

I completely understand why we're doing this. That said is there any provisions in the rules for selling "Curio and Relic" guns? Since HB 1229 says you do not need to have background checks to sell C&R guns privately, we should be able to clearly identify a gun as being at least 50 years old and avoid the background check language in the add.

[J]

Good point. I'll add that to the list of terms to add to the terms & conditions:

If the firearm meets federal requirements to be a C&R, and the listing party specifically lists that it is a C&R, no FFL requirements are necessary.

[Kraven251]

because I am mildly lazy and the original text hasn't changed, the reference to HB13-1226 should be HB13-1224 in regards to the magazines, just didn't want folks getting confused.

Item #4

[J]

Got it. Thanks for the catch

[rockhound]

man this sucks i was just thinking about buying my first gun too, i guess i wont now,

Thanks to all those who keep this site running. i do think the liability could land on them, beware that we are being watched for sure now, they will be looking for people to make an example of

I hope noone on this forum gets caught up in anything with all those new laws going into effect everyone will have to watch what they sell. we are all going to have to buy mags that fit the dems idea of what is safe,

2014 is my litmus test for this state, if we dont remove these piles o steaming crap from office in 2014 then we will be looking for land somewhere else.

[freqlord]

I had the distinct fear this was coming down the pipe. Alas! Check, roger, wilco, thanks to the mods and all you do!

[Slapps74]

Roger that and thanks for the heads up.

[sniper7]

understood. thank you for all you do and for actually letting the TP stay alive. I was curious what the final decision was going to be. glad it is this (for now as long as things go smooth).

[Romer]

J and Marlin. Appreciate you having to do that. I am a moderator on a different site and understand how things that happen here can get the site owner legally in a mess. Those who are complaining either don't understand the law or really don't care if you lose what you have and be sued for everything else. It's not their ass on the line.

When I was younger I use to hold my ground based on prinicipal and it cost me. I have learned through the years to pick your battles. Fight the issues smartly rather than with just because of the principal. We are all in agreement that these are bad laws. The smart thing is to work together to get them overturned, not to give them an example of law breakers.

Sometimes to win the game you have the fold the hand and wait for one you can win with.

My appreciation for the great site

I do have to thank the Democrats for one thing. Its was their push to take away my choice that brought me here and gave me the "feeling of need" to update my equipment and even get the CCW

[liberty19]

Mods,

As always, thanks for your efforts and your jealous care for this site. Please keep up the good work.

07/01/2013 - "The day the music died"

[RYAN50BMG]

Goodburbon is'nt that "Firm" guy, is he?

[J]

No, that was ezgoinrob.

For how he started out, and earning himself the title 'not so ez goin' he has been a pleasure since his "come to jesus" with the Firm incident.

Goodbourbon was the guy that couldn't let sleeping dogs lie, and pissed off the entire staff.

[RYAN50BMG]

No, that was ezgoinrob.

For how he started out, and earning himself the title 'not so ez goin' he has been a pleasure since his "come to jesus" with the Firm incident.

Goodbourbon was the guy that couldn't let sleeping dogs lie, and pissed off the entire staff.

I thought maybe he popped up under a different name, some folks just like the abuse. FWIW, like Marlin said: This site is private property, like the rules or GTFO. I can live with that.

[roberth]

I was wondering what was going to happen to the Trading Post. Thanks to Marlin and the staff for figuring out a way to trade and still be legal instead of just closing the entire Trading Post.

I hoping for an injunction on 1224.

[beast556]

+1 thank you for makeing changes and keeping the for sale section of the fourm, Thank you for all your hard work mods and Marlin.

[Prometheus]

This state is so damn stupid, you now have gay marriage, legal drug dispensaries on every corner, and doing away with the death penalty, but an extra 2- 15 round magazines are immoral and evil and getting rid of them will save lives, what a pile of bullshit.

You should open a section on the trading post for member ffls so we can support members because we will all have to pay for them now.

Ps for the record im switching to arrows I no longer own firearms.

[wreave]

Really, after 2013-07-01, it won't be legal to sell a Glock 19 or most any mid- or full-size handgun with a magazine. The 10-round magazine is easily convertible to 15 rounds standard capacity with factory parts, then of course +2 with the extender = 17.

That's what will kill this legislation in court, but it may take some time.

[MED]

Thank you mods for keeping the Trading Post open!

[boulder888]

Sucks to have to do this, but totally understand. Hopefully the voters remove the NY dems in our state house in 2014 and reverse some of these laws.

[stevew]

Thanks from me as well. Figure it takes about 20 thank you's to negate those one or two problem posts :)

[buzzed223]

I was going to write an "essay" but it isn't even worth the time and energy.

[J]

Ok?

[driver]

This sucks but is understood. Perhaps a sticky with the necessary verbage that can be copied and pasted into the ads will keep everything uniform and everyone covered.

[dorsum]

Understood. Being in health care, I understand completely about liability and the need to CYA through documentation. I don't have the luxury of just noting "see previous", it must be documented every time. If it wasn't written down, it never happened. Thanks to everyone for keeping this site up and running.

[flat line]

i am wanting to look at the trading post but can not see it. i have been a member for over 30 day so????

[gunboat1]

Thanks for keeping us straight and all that you guys do!

[Buckaroobonsai]

Lucky for me, the new laws won't apply as I cannot be held mentally culpable due to my documented case of Gun A.D.D.!

[Whacko]

[CoGunNut]

Just as an FYI: Several people at the Loveland Tanner Gun Show seemed to be of the understanding that there will be NO sales, whatsoever, anymore on CO-AR15.

Perhaps an email to the general "membership" might be suggested?

-Nut

[ray1970]

Just as an FYI: Several people at the Loveland Tanner Gun Show seemed to be of the understanding that there will be NO sales, whatsoever, anymore on CO-AR15.

People aren't very well informed. Seems they don't realize firearm sales will still be perfectly legal. Just have to use an FFL as a "middle man" to do the background check.

[TAG]

I just wanted to say thank you to all the members on this site that I have had the pleasure of meeting and doing business with. You have helped me when I needed it and I hope I have helped you in some way as well. God bless all of you and take care. Thank you CO AR-15 for everything!

[JMBD2112]

I just wanted to say thank you to all the members on this site that I have had the pleasure of meeting and doing business with. You have helped me when I needed it and I hope I have helped you in some way as well. God bless all of you and take care. Thank you CO AR-15 for everything!

Are you leaving?

[SideShow Bob]

Nevermind.............[facepalm]

[J]

Sigghhhh....

It is with great displeasure that I announce that the trading post is closed while we clean it out, ammend the rules, and make everyone re-acknowledge the new rules. I let it go till 11:58 to let everyone have as much time in the free air as possible before suffering through the new violations of liberty.

I will work tomorrw to get everything scrubbed, updated, and ready to re-launch the trading post. I hope to have it back open tomorrow night, but Tuesday sometime at the latest.

YES, if you had a pending ad in there, you will have to re-list it. It is getting a fresh wipe clean to ensure we don't miss any posts that may have requests that would violate new laws now into effect.

01 Jul 2013, the day Colorado cried as liberty left us for greener pastures.

[islandermyk]

... this sucks[Cry]

[DangerLee_Industries]

... this sucks[Cry] Yep we all just took it in the nuts brother.... [Kick1]

[hurley842002]

I keep trying to access the trading post thinking it's just a bad dream.....nope : password

[J]

Hopefully its a decent read:

http://www.ar-15.co/threads/109279-Trading-Post-New-Laws-Rant(ish)

[pickenup]

And so close to this countries "Independence Day" our state looses part of it's......freedom. [Mad]

I am ASHAMED of our state's government.
Especially Lickenpooper.
But then, what do you expect out of a transplant from Pennsylvania, who was indoctrinated (errr...I mean educated) in Connecticut?
Some escape the north-east with free will, some obviously did not.

[hawk1]

This whole thing blows...

[copfish]

I feel so much safer today... Thank you Senators Morse and Giron. [pileoshit]

[powerstroke79]

Understood

[bellavite1]

Agreed

[crays]

Checked In...Not Checking Out

Comply in public, conduct in private.

[reapur]

I'm pissed too.
Where is the terms thread that we have to agree to?
Is this it? if so I agree.

[jamesm7485]

Understood that we live under libratard tyrants ;(

[bentleybusa]

I agree

[cwripinz]

I will comply.

[Rabid]

Understood but not happy about it.

[glock21]

Understood.

[Jmetz]

Guys this isn't the trading post terms and conditions agreement thread.

[wctriumph]

Load and clear, understood and greatfull.

[Great-Kazoo]

Agreed in this thread too

[JM Ver. 2.0]

Agreed in this thread too

I agree if Jimmy agrees.

Sent from my teepee using smoke signals.

[275RLTW]

agreed

[Jer]

Not sure I agree. Thankfully this isn't the Trading Post terms and conditions agreement thread.

[kwando]

10-4

[AK47 Ranger]

I agree to new bullshit laws, I guess.

[SouthPaw]

I'm only agreeing because I have to.

[DVC357]

AFFIRMATIVE.
UNFORTUNATE.

[KestrelBike]

Agreed n' stuff

[whitbaby]

Agreed...again...

[griebel303]

Agreed

[kidicarus13]

Is this the official terms and conditions agreement thread? If so, I agree.

[nikolatesla19]

I'll join. Agreed.

[SideShow Bob]

Yes, if this is the new agreement sign in page,
I agree to the new rules.

[J]

It is not. The old page will still be the signup acknowledgement thread. It is just cleared out now, and is locked until the new rules get posted there.

I am just about done with the scrubbing, then I need to modify the Terms and Conditions to reflect the changes, then all will be opened back up.