View Full Version : I need to be taught to be more paranoid about gun registration
kidicarus13
03-12-2013, 17:03
...so help me out. This example uses the word registration to mean purchased through a FFL dealer. I have 2 examples:
1.) Peter legally owns a handgun, a shotgun, and a rifle. Only the shotgun was registered through a FFL, the other two were purchased private party. One day in the future after all firears are made illegal jack-booted Feds (JBF) come to Peter's house because his name and address were on the FFL registry and indicate that he owns a shotgun. Of course while they are there they tell him that he will need to turn in all of his firearm, not just the ones they know about. It is his choice if he does or does not lie to the JBF about continuing to own any of his firearms. JBF may legally or illegally search his house for the firearms. The may or may not find them and they may or may not charge him.
2.) Peter legally owns a handgun, a shotgun, and a rifle. All 3 firearms were registered through a FFL. One day in the future after all firears are made illegal jack-booted Feds (JBF) come to Peter's house because his name and address were on the FFL registry and indicate that he owns a handgun, a rifle, and a shotgun. Of course while they are there they tell him that he will need to turn in all of his firearms, not just the ones they know about. It is his choice if he does or does not lie to the JBF about continuing to own any of his firearms. JBF may legally or illegally search his house for the firearms. The may or may not find them and they may or may not charge him.
I can understand an arguement about not having any of your firearms "registered" but if you have even 1 firearm registered, that is all it will take to get a visit come confiscation day or turn-in-your-firearms day (assuming it will come). If you lie to the JBF on confiscation day and they find you in possession of your firearm later you will still be charged with a crime so... Why are most people paranoid about purchasing guns from a FFL? What am I missing?
newracer
03-12-2013, 17:09
"I sold/lost/gave away those firearms many years ago."
dwalker460
03-12-2013, 17:10
On confiscation day, should it ever come, the first obstacle will be getting close enough to ask what guns I may, or may not, still possess.
well in example 1, the JBT are leaving with 1 gun, or 3 guns and you. in example 2 they are leaving with 3 guns. Having some not through a FFL means there is a chance to keep them if you choose to take the risk.
newracer
03-12-2013, 17:11
Also this will never happen because FFL records have to be searched by hand. No way they will ever have the man power for such a task.
On confiscation day, should it ever come, the first obstacle will be getting close enough to ask what guns I may, or may not, still possess.On confiscation day, you won't know they are coming until you are face down with a barrel at the back of your head. "ZE WEAPONZ, NOW!"
(see california confiscation threads)
Also this will never happen because FFL records have to be searched by hand. No way they will ever have the man power for such a task.Unless they have been logging them electronically all along.
(this tin-foil is itchy)
Finally a good reason to have a Hi-Point handgun...a decoy for the search!!! I always knew they were being made for something.
mdflem51
03-12-2013, 17:16
On confiscation day, should it ever come, the first obstacle will be getting close enough to ask what guns I may, or may not, still possess.
I hope you have a lot of Magpul products full, that Sgt. Fitzpatrick gave us and foresaw that day is coming.
Also this will never happen because FFL records have to be searched by hand. No way they will ever have the man power for such a task.
they could contract the job to Google, their book scanning division, and have it done pretty quickly.
newracer
03-12-2013, 17:18
Unless they have been logging them electronically all along.
(this tin-foil is itchy)
Again, they do not have the man power to do that. The form stays with the FFL unless they close. Then all the records are sent to the Feds to be stored. No way they are logging all that data.
Maybe I'm not understanding your example. Am I correct in saying that purchasing a firearm through a FFL is the only way the JBFs know Peter has any guns in the first place?
newracer
03-12-2013, 17:19
they could contract the job to Google, their book scanning division, and have it done pretty quickly.
But they do not have all the records.
But they do not have all the records.
one little law and they do. Not like the records don't exist, they are just scattered all over the country.
newracer
03-12-2013, 17:26
And there are millions of them. It is more likely that firearm owners will be turned in by neighbors, co-workers, and relatives than searching the 4473 records.
Byte Stryke
03-12-2013, 17:27
Unless they have been logging them electronically all along.
(this tin-foil is itchy)
Umm... The drone above you (DON'T LOOK NOW!) can see them under your coat and track you using your cellphones GPS!
http://gunssavelives.net/blog/creepy-domestic-drones-can-detect-armed-citizens-track-cell-phones/
dwalker460
03-12-2013, 17:27
On confiscation day, you won't know they are coming until you are face down with a barrel at the back of your head. "ZE WEAPONZ, NOW!"
(see california confiscation threads)
Well lets hope we dont have to find out. I will point you to history though and just say that more than a few revenue agents went back into the hollows of TN looking for my relatives to confiscate various things and never came back. Not the first time in the history of this country has the government done something monumentally stupid and had to be reminded gently not to do it again.
Byte Stryke
03-12-2013, 17:28
Well lets hope we dont have to find out. I will point you to history though and just say that more than a few revenue agents went back into the hollows of TN looking for my relatives to confiscate various things and never came back. Not the first time in the history of this country has the government done something monumentally stupid and had to be reminded gently not to do it again.
didn't Dorner try that?
Maybe I'm not understanding your example. Am I correct in saying that purchasing a firearm through a FFL is the only way the JBFs know Peter has any guns in the first place?
This is the point. And when they ask I shall stand tall and state I know comrade Obummer would protect me and I have no need for such devices. Hail Gov Dicknpooper.
dwalker460
03-12-2013, 17:29
didn't Dorner try that?
Did he? I'm not sure...
n8tive97
03-12-2013, 17:30
"I sold/lost/gave away those firearms many years ago."
This
And there are millions of them. It is more likely that firearm owners will be turned in by neighbors, co-workers, and relatives than searching the 4473 records.
agreed, but before it got to the point of JBT in your house there would be a national registry. You would be required to register (so they can catch you in a lie later) and they'll sift through those records as a double check. If you do not register something that the 4473 says you bought you go on the shorter list of watched.
newracer
03-12-2013, 17:33
That is not the situation described. I will never register any of my firearms, see my first post.
TEAMRICO
03-12-2013, 17:39
I just come here for the funny pictures thread and the ponies. I don't own any guns.........hear that Mrs Napalotano? I don't have any.....but I know folks who do!
RCCrawler
03-12-2013, 17:42
Technically they don't need to knock on or kick in any doors. All they have to do is declare all firearms illegal, and setup a date that all firearms must be turned in by. If you're caught with any firearm after that date for any reason you get a 25 year mandatory prison sentence.
You rob a bank, boom 25 years in prison.
You shoot someone that breaks into your house, boom 25 years in prison.
You shoot a guy on the street who's beating an old woman, boom 25 years in prison.
Your kid gets questioned at school about if there are any guns in the house, they kick in your door, find them, boom 25 years in prison.
Great-Kazoo
03-12-2013, 18:02
Technically they don't need to knock on or kick in any doors. All they have to do is declare all firearms illegal, and setup a date that all firearms must be turned in by. If you're caught with any firearm after that date for any reason you get a 25 year mandatory prison sentence.
You rob a bank, boom 25 years in prison.
You shoot someone that breaks into your house, boom 25 years in prison.
You shoot a guy on the street who's beating an old woman, boom 25 years in prison.
Your kid gets questioned at school about if there are any guns in the house, they kick in your door, find them, boom 25 years in prison.
So do i hit the bank and go down in flames or just go down in flames.
OR do i (HYPOTHETICALLY BASED ON every TV and movie ever made) Go Charles Bronson on the dregs of society. Taking my chances i end up shot down in flames OR have some bitchin folk song go viral after word spreads of my task cleansing the earth of predators.
Something catchy say the judges would give it a 5 for easy to dance to but a solid 10 on music while viewed on AB.
http://www.televisiontunes.com/American_Bandstand.html
kidicarus13
03-12-2013, 18:54
Maybe I'm not understanding your example. Am I correct in saying that purchasing a firearm through a FFL is the only way the JBFs know Peter has any guns in the first place?
I guess there could be a national registry period and any guns not registered would earn prison time if discovered later as another member suggested.
If there is not a national registry I do not know of another way for the JBF to know you have a specific gun(s). Just thinking out loud.
BlasterBob
03-12-2013, 18:55
Damned new laws have me so skeered that I just set fire to mine. Here Mr. Alphabet man, you are welcome to take em all but give me an official receipt - please. [blaster]
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/bobjan/Sellmisc011.jpg
BlasterBob
03-12-2013, 19:03
Again, they do not have the man power to do that. The form stays with the FFL unless they close. Then all the records are sent to the Feds to be stored. No way they are logging all that data.
I don't know about the above. When I turned in my 01 FFL (because it was too much of a hassle to maintain it) the 4473's were mailed to the ATFE facility in Atlanta, GA and I was told by the receiver that the records would all be entered in their computer. Of course those over 20 years old were not sent in - per instructions from them.
Wow...nobody mentioned boats.
Also this will never happen because FFL records have to be searched by hand. No way they will ever have the man power for such a task.
You are either trying to be funny -- or are woefully ignorant about the state of technology.
spongejosh
03-12-2013, 19:28
...so help me out. This example uses the word registration to mean purchased through a FFL dealer. I have 2 examples:
You're mixing current and upcoming laws. By current law in example 2 Peter can say, I sold all 3 private party to some guy in Grand Junction. If they search the house and don't find anything, they can't prove he didn't sell them.
The new universal background check will make that illegal. So Peter purchases 3 guns after UBC goes into effect. Now when the JBF show up and say he has 3 traceable purchases through an FFL, he can't say he sold them or else there would be a record. If he doesn't turn over the guns he will be arrested regardless of his lie.
After UBC happen, universal registration is the next step. Under registration they will most likely require you report to an FFL or the gov if you had a "boating accident" to remove the excuse that your guns just walked away.
dwalker460
03-12-2013, 19:36
And thats what is so scary, and why this MUST GO.
kidicarus13
03-12-2013, 19:53
That sheds some more light on things spongejosh. So after they require BGC I may still own unregistered firearms and their next step could be to require registering those. That will be another issue.
Until there is a national BCG system in place you could still temporally move out of state, acquire arms, and then return to Colorado with those arms without registering them.
Bottom line, they're slowing eroding our right to own firearms.
Great-Kazoo
03-12-2013, 20:06
That sheds some more light on things spongejosh. So after they require BGC I may still own unregistered firearms and their next step could be to require registering those. That will be another issue.
Until there is a national BCG system in place you could still temporally move out of state, acquire arms, and then return to Colorado with those arms without registering them.
Bottom line, they're slowing eroding our right to own firearms.
SLOWLY?? THEY OPEN UP HOOVER DAM and forgot to tell the residents down stream. OOPS
Shootersfab
03-12-2013, 20:18
My mommy said guns are bad. That's why I don't have one, I don't like them.
brokenscout
03-12-2013, 20:46
Maybe the media was portraying him as a "crazy", how many of us will be the next "Dorner" . [tinhat]It will end poorly
Did he? I'm not sure...
On confiscation day, should it ever come, the first obstacle will be getting close enough to ask what guns I may, or may not, still possess.
^^^THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS^^^^
ChadAmberg
03-12-2013, 21:02
Again, they do not have the man power to do that. The form stays with the FFL unless they close. Then all the records are sent to the Feds to be stored. No way they are logging all that data.
Besides, you can't search data that's been destroyed in bonfires in FFL parking lots.
Do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
newracer
03-12-2013, 21:36
You are either trying to be funny -- or are woefully ignorant about the state of technology.
Neither. I read a recent article about tracing a firearm from a crime and the FBI stated the process was this:
They contact the manufacturer to find out what distributor it was sold to.
They then contact the distributor to find out what retailer it was sold to.
Then the retailer to manually search his files to find who it was sold to. I am not sure what order 4473s a FFL files them by but I bet it is not by serial number or manufacturer. I assume by date sold or received.
If the FFL has closed then the feds have the files which has to be manually searched.
The entire process usually takes weeks.
In the article they stated none of the records they have have been converted to digital format.
Even if they did scan the records, OCR software does not work very well with handwritten text which most of not all 4473s are.
I have bought numerous firearms from numerous FFLs, I cannot even imagine how difficult it would be for them to figure out all I had.
dwalker460
03-12-2013, 21:45
Huh, you believed something the .gov said publicly.... thats kinda cute
newracer
03-12-2013, 21:53
It makes perfect sense. The feds do not have most of the forms, the FFLs have them. Even the ones they do have are all hand written. Do you think they are going to pay someones to enter the data by hand into a database? I don't.
I am all for a good conspiracy but this one just doesn't work. Like I said earlier it will be much easier to get other people to turn in firearm owners.
Neither. I read a recent article about tracing a firearm from a crime and the FBI stated the process was this:
Try not to quote to me how the FTC works unless you have actually been through the process or seen it work first hand.
The entire process usually takes weeks.
Or much longer -- unless they need the data right now, then you would probably be surprised.
In the article they stated none of the records they have have been converted to digital format.
Thats nice. I'm sure there will be a bunch of people in Martinsburg and Clarksburg happy to know they can go home now.
Even if they did scan the records, OCR software does not work very well with handwritten text which most of not all 4473s are.
Tell that to any major financial institution, data broker, or stock order house. They don't OCR hundreds of thousands of complex documents per day. Nope. Not at all.
What you can play with at the local best buy has nothing on what tens and hundreds of millions of dollars of dedicated resources and development can make happen. When real money is on the line radical things happen quickly.
But with many places it really doesn't matter since 4473's are going digital - that wasn't to help the FFLs.
The entire process usually takes weeks.
Dougherty siblings....little car chase that started in FL and ended in CO on I-25 several years ago. The news seemed to know every firearm those three had ever bought, well before the joyride ended on I-25.
-probably just lucky guesses on the part of the newsroom crew...
newracer
03-12-2013, 22:18
Try not to quote to me how the FTC works unless you have actually been through the process or seen it work first hand.
Or much longer -- unless they need the data right now, then you would probably be surprised.
Thats nice. I'm sure there will be a bunch of people in Martinsburg and Clarksburg happy to know they can go home now.
Tell that to any major financial institution, data broker, or stock order house. They don't OCR hundreds of thousands of complex documents per day. Nope. Not at all.
What you can play with at the local best buy has nothing on what tens and hundreds of millions of dollars of dedicated resources and development can make happen. When real money is on the line radical things happen quickly.
But with many places it really doesn't matter since 4473's are going digital - that wasn't to help the FFLs.
You asked and I was simply stating what I was basing my opinion on. Fact is they still do not have most of the forms and there are much easier ways to find out who has firearms. The idea that they go this route to figure out who has what firearms is ludicrous. It would be much more efficient and cost effective to simply offer a reward for information.
<MADDOG>
03-12-2013, 22:19
All the people saying molon labe have went to hiding...
newracer
03-12-2013, 22:20
Dougherty siblings....little car chase that started in FL and ended in CO on I-25 several years ago. The news seemed to know every firearm those three had ever bought, well before the joyride ended on I-25.
-probably just lucky guesses on the part of the newsroom crew...
That is a few individuals, try figuring out that information for the tens of millions of firearm owners.
dwalker460
03-12-2013, 22:23
All the people saying molon labe have went to hiding...
Not hiding [pick-me]
<MADDOG>
03-12-2013, 22:59
Not hiding [pick-me]
Thank you dwalker...
For those people who say "I lost/sold XYZ", I'll buy some tampons specifically for you...
dwalker460
03-12-2013, 23:02
Well I am the first to joke about boating accidents, danged ole firearms should never go boating without supervision, but the honest truth is I dont hide my feelings much...
Great-Kazoo
03-12-2013, 23:18
Carpe Labia >~
Finally a good reason to have a Hi-Point handgun...a decoy for the search!!! I always knew they were being made for something.
Hahaha +1
You asked and I was simply stating what I was basing my opinion on. Fact is they still do not have most of the forms and there are much easier ways to find out who has firearms. The idea that they go this route to figure out who has what firearms is ludicrous. It would be much more efficient and cost effective to simply offer a reward for information.
Don't get me wrong. I am not saying they have the forms all organized and ready to go now (far from it) - or that they have a giant computer database with everything in it ready to go. Just saying its not a far leap technically to make it happen quickly.
brokenscout
03-13-2013, 07:07
LOL, that's funny
Thank you dwalker...
For those people who say "I lost/sold XYZ", I'll buy some tampons specifically for you...
ANADRILL
03-13-2013, 08:00
Dougherty siblings....little car chase that started in FL and ended in CO on I-25 several years ago. The news seemed to know every firearm those three had ever bought, well before the joyride ended on I-25.
-probably just lucky guesses on the part of the newsroom crew...
Let me guess...Glock, AR15, AK47..hahaha
newracer
03-13-2013, 08:21
Don't get me wrong. I am not saying they have the forms all organized and ready to go now (far from it) - or that they have a giant computer database with everything in it ready to go. Just saying its not a far leap technically to make it happen quickly.
I agree it could technically be done but the time and money it would cost would be massive. Hell it would be easier to just query all the firearm forums to find out who has firearms.
Great-Kazoo
03-13-2013, 08:31
That is a few individuals, try figuring out that information for the tens of millions of firearm owners.
They had that info asap because they knew who the people were, and did a complete data base search, same for that dorner guy. Granted he left a "manifesto" for the world to see. Take 500 people and they will eventually have you info but it will not be an overnight turn around time.
I agree it could technically be done but the time and money it would cost would be minor compared with other programs of similar scale and well within the discretionary budget of congress. Hell it would be easier to just query all the firearm forums to find out who has firearms.
FIFY.
Great-Kazoo
03-13-2013, 08:40
FIFY.
Or look in the SHOW Us You Latest Purchase Thread.
BlasterBob
03-13-2013, 09:15
Or "they" could merely get a hold of the NRA membership list. That may just inform "them" who MIGHT have or at least had a firearm. May not be a legal maneuver but that has not bothered "them" in the past.
Thank you dwalker...
For those people who say "I lost/sold XYZ", I'll buy some tampons specifically for you...
I agree with this. Rather than the "lost them", "sold them", "hate them", "keep a throw down to give up to the searchers" responses that tends to divide us and show weakness, shouldn't the responses read more like "I have a shit ton of guns, thousands upon thousands of rounds of ammo, a well trained family support system that's "all in" and the willingness to defend EVERY DAMN BIT OF IT. If you keep chipping away at our rights afforded by the Constitution that OUR families have shed blood to defend (and most likely yours too) you will not walk away from this unscarred. However, should you decide to cease your attack on our country from within you and I will both simply part ways and go on about our day."
Sure seems like THAT is the united message we should be yelling from the mountaintops.
Bitter Clinger
03-13-2013, 09:28
I have no doubt that the current traitors in office, both federally and local, would wipe their asses with the U.S. constitution and do whatever the hell they want to. Innocent until proven guilty only applies if you are a pedophile, drug dealer or stupid...er sorry, liberal democrap. Gun owning freedom loving patriots are guilty until they can pile more shit on to make us more guilty.
Thank you dwalker...
For those people who say "I lost/sold XYZ", I'll buy some tampons specifically for you...
I agree with this. Rather than the "lost them", "sold them", "hate them", "keep a throw down to give up to the searchers" responses that tends to divide us and show weakness, shouldn't the responses read more like "I have a shit ton of guns, thousands upon thousands of rounds of ammo, a well trained family support system that's "all in" and the willingness to defend EVERY DAMN BIT OF IT. If you keep chipping away at our rights afforded by the Constitution that OUR families have shed blood to defend (and most likely yours too) you will not walk away from this unscarred. However, should you decide to cease your attack on our country from within you and I will both simply part ways and go on about our day."
Sure seems like THAT is the united message we should be yelling from the mountaintops.
Thank you both... I'm reminded of that adage "If there was a time to bury your guns, now is the time to dig them up... and start becoming proficient with them." Don't people realize that the 2nd is not just to restrict what the government can do, but also remind them that WE have the power to pull back on their reigns, violently if need be? "I lost my guns" sounds a lot like cowardess in the face of creeping tyranny. History is full of wonderful lessons- The Empire of Japan feared invading the US homeland because "There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." Guess what kids, a rifle behind every door in Anytown, USA also would force, as the OP stated JBF, to have a moment of pause before encroaching on this sacred, natural right. YMMV... But I hold my guns close and train, train, train... then for a change of pace, I train some more so that IF the time ever came, my shots would count.
I agree with this. Rather than the "lost them", "sold them", "hate them", "keep a throw down to give up to the searchers" responses that tends to divide us and show weakness, shouldn't the responses read more like "I have a shit ton of guns, thousands upon thousands of rounds of ammo, a well trained family support system that's "all in" and the willingness to defend EVERY DAMN BIT OF IT. If you keep chipping away at our rights afforded by the Constitution that OUR families have shed blood to defend (and most likely yours too) you will not walk away from this unscarred. However, should you decide to cease your attack on our country from within you and I will both simply part ways and go on about our day."
Sure seems like THAT is the united message we should be yelling from the mountaintops.
While I absolutely agree with you in principle, practicality is another matter. The practical facts are that the govt has shown it has no scruples about murdering it's own citizens (Waco, Ruby Ridge, 9-11 etc etc etc) and an individual is not equipped to resist on his own. When the winds of confiscation begin blowing, how is one person going to stand up and declare they are exactly the type of target these motherless liberals are looking for? Expecting them to back down and say "Oh... here's a man who stands tall and resists us... we should shamefacedly turn around and leave." is naive. That person will be shot while "resisting arrest", their assets seized, kids sold to the foster-care indoctrination machine, and the entire incident will make little more than a "domestic terrorist thwarted" byline in the news.
The only way bold-faced resistance will fly is if there's a movement large enough to take notice of, and it can unite together uniformly enough to make the bullies take pause and consider the ramifications of all out war on a law-abiding demographic of their constituency. That's going to be the challenge - coming together like that in an organized fashion.
Great-Kazoo
03-13-2013, 12:21
Or "they" could merely get a hold of the NRA membership list. That may just inform "them" who MIGHT have or at least had a firearm. May not be a legal maneuver but that has not bothered "them" in the past.
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