View Full Version : Whats with ???
Great-Kazoo
08-30-2008, 05:37
post in the For Sale firearms on here and other boards lately ?
While i might be under the misguided impression that gun sales in state are a casual transaction, between 2 non-ffl folks. I am seeing a fair amount of For Sale ads where the seller insist that the buyer go through a BG check/ 4473 sale.
Granted i know some are going to say "if you don't want to do the BG check, don't buy it"
doesn't that defeat the casual sale theory?
AH for the days of casual sales w/o BG checks @ gunshows.
imho, most of it is the kaliforniacaters, and other commie out of staters that have influxed here after they made their home states uninhabitable, and are now trying to crap on our's, and in reality dont really know any better. I seen a phrase a while back that I really liked, but I dont remember where that stated, the only thing worse to see in colorado than a texas license plate is a u-haul with plates from california [Rant2]
the libtard brainwashing of this country is way out of hand.
best practice.. don't support it.
vote with your feet and/or wallet.
pickenup
08-30-2008, 09:07
Part of the reason I try to buy local, is BECAUSE I don't have to put that gun on the confiscation list.
(ya right, I forgot, there is no list. [/sarcasm])
The seller sets the rules for his sale, and I have clicked OFF of a listing, because of the seller's rules. Most of the time a handshake will do. Occasionally I have provided, or wanted, a bill of sale, which I don't have a problem with. Some are satisfied if they can see your CCW. (if you have one) But to require a 4473 and a background check, for a face to face private sale??? I don't think so. There will be another gun along shortly.
The only thing worse would be the ads that show too much enthusiasm for the paperless transaction.
"WTB today, any model Glock, FTF only"
ummm, yeah
WillysWagon
08-30-2008, 10:59
I like/prefer the FTF sale laws we have here in CO and wish gunshow sales would have never changed. I also feel the main reason people sell this way is to remove their name from the paperwork, thus removing them from any future trouble/questions if the firearm was ever used in an illegal manner, stolen, or whatever the case may be.
my .02
Great-Kazoo
08-30-2008, 11:22
I like/prefer the FTF sale laws we have here in CO and wish gunshow sales would have never changed. I also feel the main reason people sell this way is to remove their name from the paperwork, thus removing them from any future trouble/questions if the firearm was ever used in an illegal manner, stolen, or whatever the case may be.
my .02
unfortunately the anti's go all the way to the point of mfg with lawsuits.
i've mentioned to some sellers i'm CCW & NFA holder most say thats good enough. there is the 1 or 2 that go so far as to roadside soberity test you (well almost)!
For nonnatives, FTF feels strange.
My first FTF was with a board member in a parking lot, and I have to say it felt awkward. I got over it. The transaction was friendly and informal.
I'm in Colorado, so try to do things "Colorado style". That includes FTF firearm sales.
B2crawler
08-30-2008, 13:33
I'll buy a gun anyway it comes to me, I don't care. Registered unregistered I have both. First time I bought FTF on here was a little strange for me also. Met in the back of a parking lot. Hmm...I don't know him from Adam. I've got a grand in cash he's bringing at least one gun that I know of. It must be my Komifornia roots that gave me the uneasy feeling.
Went slick as could be though. Richard K's trash is definitely my treasure.
Buy from him with total confidence.
P.S. If your not Ute, Comanche, Kiowa, Cheyenne, Arapaho, Sioux, or Pawnee just go back to wherever your cracker ass came from cause your not a "REAL" Coloradan.
P.S. I married a Colorado Native, does that give me some kind of access to a Colorado green card or anything??
robsterclaw
09-01-2008, 00:58
The only thing worse would be the ads that show too much enthusiasm for the paperless transaction.
"WTB today, any model Glock, FTF only"
ummm, yeah
Hey now! I'm wanting to buy any handgun yesterday, not even FTF is good enough. I want us both to wear bags on our heads as we drive by each other in a parking lot and I'll toss the cash through his car window as he throws the gun through mine. I also want us both to have car covers on with the window areas cut out see we can't see each others car make and model. :)
Unless I personally know the person, I will always go through a FFL transfer. The reason is that sometimes, law enforcement will go after the weapon seller - remember Columbine? That was a casual sale.
On top of that, I don't want to be held responsible for the purchaser breaking any laws. Denver and Aurora have assault weapon bans that are fruity in their own right. Both cities are nutty enough to go after the seller.
I live in Denver - I don't own any magazines that hold more than 20 rounds because it's a felony if you get caught with one. If I go to Lakewood and buy an AR-15 that comes from the factory with a 30 rd magazine, you can bet law enforcement is going to call the dealer, look at the 4473 and ask the question "You know he lived in Denver County and in the City of Denver, why did you sell him an assault weapon".
As a seller, I don't want to have that discussion. I will gladly pay $25 on the sale for the background check - it's a lot cheaper than an attorney, missed work, losing my right to vote, losing my right to own guns, losing my right to hunt and fish, etc., etc.
"Unless I personally know the person, I will always go through a FFL transfer. The reason is that sometimes, law enforcement will go after the weapon seller - remember Columbine? That was a casual sale."
As I recall, the issue with the seller in the Columbine case was that they sold to an underage kid. Age is easy enough to check on a Colorado driver's license. Has anyone on this board ever had anyone come after them on a gun they sold?
mightymouse
09-05-2008, 15:35
Unless I personally know the person, I will always go through a FFL transfer. The reason is that sometimes, law enforcement will go after the weapon seller - remember Columbine? That was a casual sale.
On top of that, I don't want to be held responsible for the purchaser breaking any laws. Denver and Aurora have assault weapon bans that are fruity in their own right. Both cities are nutty enough to go after the seller.
I live in Denver - I don't own any magazines that hold more than 20 rounds because it's a felony if you get caught with one.
Wow. This post is full of win. Except not.
Columbine was because of the underage provision.
Aurora has no AWB.
Denver's AWB are all misdemeanors.
Seriously. You're part of the problem.
From Denver's Muni Code...
Sec. 38-123. Identification and records concerning sales, etc. (a) Every person who sells, rents or exchanges at retail any weapon designated in sections 38-117 or 38-122 shall require the vendee, lessee or person with whom such exchange is made to furnish more than one (1) type of identification before such sale, rental or exchange is consummated.
(b) Every person engaged in the sale, rental or exchange at retail of any weapon designated in sections 38-117 or 38-122 shall keep a record of each such weapon so sold, rented or exchanged at retail and of the vendee or lessee thereof, or person with whom such exchange is made; said record shall at all times be open to inspection by the manager of safety or a duly authorized agent, or by any police officer of the city and shall be made at the time of each such transaction in a book kept for that purpose, and shall include:
(1) The name of the person to whom such weapon is sold or rented, or with whom it is exchanged;
(2) The age of such person;
(3) The occupation of such person;
(4) The residence and, if residing in a city, the street and street number of the residence of such person;
(5) The make, caliber if any, and finish of the weapon so sold, rented or exchanged, and the number or serial number thereof, if any;
(6) The date of the sale, rental or exchange of such weapon;
(7) The name of the employee or other person making such sale, rental or exchange of such weapon; and
(8) A description of each of the types of identification furnished by the vendee, lessee or person with whom such exchange is made, together with any serial numbers or other distinctive features noted in or appearing on each such type of identification so furnished.
(c) It shall be unlawful for any person who purchases, rents or exchanges any weapon designated in sections 38-117 or 38-122 to give a false or fictitious name, or any other false, fraudulent or incorrect information to the person from whom such weapon is purchased, or rented, or with whom such weapon is exchanged at the time such purchase, rental or exchange is made.
(Code 1950, § 845.7)
I deal with municipalities all day long - it's my day job. Sale at retail includes private citizens selling to other private citizens. How do you know that person you don't know doesn't fall into this category....
Sec. 38-124. Unlawful to sell weapons to intoxicated persons or minors. (a) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell, loan or furnish any instrument or weapon designated in sections 38-117 or 38-122 to any person under the influence of alcohol or any narcotic drug, stimulant or depressant or to any person in a condition of agitation and excitability.
(b) Such unlawful sale, loan or furnishing shall be grounds for revocation of any license issued by the city to such person.
(Code 1950, § 845.8; Ord. No. 38-07, § 5, 1-22-07)
For a measely $25 - I delegate that responsibility to someone else.
I worked in the business 25 years ago and I saw too many instances where people got in trouble - including a father that chewed us out because his son chased down his girlfriend with a Colt Officer's model 3 days after he bought it from us and letting us know that he had been in and out of mental institutions.
Part of the problem? No. Overly cautious? Maybe. But think of it this way - I want 1 less reason for people to come up with to take my guns away and keeping them out of the hands of the bad element will only help.
...but like I always tell folks - you're old enough to make your own decisions. Do whatever you feel is right.
JustEd, the first Denver municipal statute you cite applies to sales "at retail" (i.e., at a storefront). Thus, it isn't relevant to a private sale between two people on this board. Yes, it is illegal to sell to someone who is obviously drunk or high, but I doubt any of the people on this board are stupid enough to do that.
You can also just avoid the Denver statutes by conducting the sale outside of Denver county. That is how ticket brokers avoid Denver's anti-scalping laws on a daily basis.
JustEd, the first Denver municipal statute you cite applies to sales "at retail" (i.e., at a storefront). Thus, it isn't relevant to a private sale between two people on this board. Yes, it is illegal to sell to someone who is obviously drunk or high, but I doubt any of the people on this board are stupid enough to do that.
You can also just avoid the Denver statutes by conducting the sale outside of Denver county. That is how ticket brokers avoid Denver's anti-scalping laws on a daily basis.
You are incorrect about the "sales at retail". Trust me - for the last 15 years I've dealt in sales/use/transaction tax law. My current job (for the past 6 years) is to fight with sales tax auditors. A sale at retail includes a private citizen - whether it's a gun sale, a garage sale, or a purchase at King Soopers. There is an occasional sale exemption for sales tax purposes but it is still defined in the code as a "sale at retail". Believe it or not, under the eyes of the law (all Colorado Municipalities and the State) you are legally required to pay use tax on mail order purchases where a vendor does not charge you Colorado tax, or tax for the city you live in. Auditors usually only go after businesses on this issue - but places like New York state go after individuals to the point there are kiosks along the highway for people that go to New Hampshire to buy stuff tax free to give them the opportunity to pay their tax to the great state of New York on the way back on the side of the road. Retail is defined as a sale to a consumer. The buyer is the consumer. Doesn't matter who the seller is.
I know various Denver auditors and I can honestly tell you that they are present at places like Gun Shows, the Merchandise Mart, and the Stock Show - they go after anyone they find making sales at retail - whether it's a private citizen or a business. There's a reason why you are only allowed 2 yard sales per year in Denver.
Did you notice the law is ambiguous enough to state "or to any person in a condition of agitation and excitability". Can you define that in a court of law? I realize tax law and criminal law are different but this is subject to interpretation of a jury. I can honestly state that I have ALWAYS been excited when I've saved up enough money to buy a firearm. Whether it's a new AR or a new shotgun.
...and like I said, I have no problem talking about this on a forum. I don't have the cash sitting around to go through the expense of arguing this in court. I don't necessarily agree with the laws but I do have to follow them once they are passed and sometimes, it's cheaper to just cover your butt and leave a positive paper trail so the issue doesn't come up. Think of it as insurance. What's $25 bucks and a 15 minute wait for a CBI check? It's not like we have a 14 day waiting period rule like other places. We've got a system that works better than others around the country - why not take advantage of it?
Great-Kazoo
09-05-2008, 21:57
Think of it as insurance. What's $25 bucks and a 15 minute wait for a CBI check? It's not like we have a 14 day waiting period rule like other places. We've got a system that works better than others around the country - why not take advantage of it?
the reason being some folks like to own something thats off the radar.
However the seller is within their rights to set the sale terms. whether the product sells or not is another issue.
your gun your rules
HunterCO
09-05-2008, 22:55
Think of it as insurance. What's $25 bucks and a 15 minute wait for a CBI check? It's not like we have a 14 day waiting period rule like other places. We've got a system that works better than others around the country - why not take advantage of it?
I have insurance don't need anymore and have done many transactions with out all the crap you speak of. I also own a business in denver and you do not know what your talking about when it comes to private sales.
That being said you're right we do have a system that works we meet trade money and merchandise done deal. We are taking advantage of what works.
You are free to make up any conditions you wish as to the sale of your goods, However I will never buy anything from you under those conditions.
The most I would ever do is if the buyer looked under age I would ask to see id to make sure they are of age. I would not sell to some idiot with his pants around his ankles with 40 pounds of gold chains around his neck. I would not sell to somebody that was obviously on drugs or appeared to be irrational. ect. ect. ect.
Not real hard if you ask me. Then again common sense seems to be a thing of the past.
I have insurance don't need anymore and have done many transactions with out all the crap you speak of. I also own a business in denver and you do not know what your talking about when it comes to private sales.
That being said you're right we do have a system that works we meet trade money and merchandise done deal. We are taking advantage of what works.
You are free to make up any conditions you wish as to the sale of your goods, However I will never buy anything from you under those conditions.
The most I would ever do is if the buyer looked under age I would ask to see id to make sure they are of age. I would not sell to some idiot with his pants around his ankles with 40 pounds of gold chains around his neck. I would not sell to somebody that was obviously on drugs or appeared to be irrational. ect. ect. ect.
Not real hard if you ask me. Then again common sense seems to be a thing of the past.
+1000 well said![Awesom] there is enough stupid firearm laws as it is, we dont need to make up our own.
Aloha_Shooter
09-06-2008, 13:21
Freedom works both ways. Sellers have the freedom to attach whatever conditions they want to the sale to protect their own asses, comply with the law as they see it or just to make them comfortable. Buyers have the freedom to NOT buy from sellers who they think are unreasonable in price or condition.
Why the kvetching? OP posted to let sellers know he's concerned about the recent prevalence of sellers wanting FFL transfers or background checks. Ed posted to let buyers know why he insists on it. Both points of view are reasonable so why thrash at each other instead of thrashing at the unreasonable morons in Denver government or the DNC?
The Brady Bunch, DNC, Obama, etc. are the REAL enemy -- quit spewing at fellow shooters unless they give you real cause (like being unsafe, unreasonable scofflaws, etc.).
Freedom works both ways. Sellers have the freedom to attach whatever conditions they want to the sale to protect their own asses, comply with the law as they see it or just to make them comfortable. Buyers have the freedom to NOT buy from sellers who they think are unreasonable in price or condition.
Why the kvetching? OP posted to let sellers know he's concerned about the recent prevalence of sellers wanting FFL transfers or background checks. Ed posted to let buyers know why he insists on it. Both points of view are reasonable so why thrash at each other instead of thrashing at the unreasonable morons in Denver government or the DNC?
The Brady Bunch, DNC, Obama, etc. are the REAL enemy -- quit spewing at fellow shooters unless they give you real cause (like being unsafe, unreasonable scofflaws, etc.). I agree with this. The only thing I would add is when a buyer does attach the condition that it must go through a FFL and background check that it should be asked if they are requiring the conditions because they think the law says they need to or if they are doing it for their own reasons. As long as they acknowledge that FTF sales are legal then I'm fine with them putting the condition.
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