Thoughts on Bar carry.

[JlazyH]

My oldest son (41 years old) just got his CCW. It has been fun watching a person with a new permit. All the questions like, does it print, which holster is best IWB OWB pocket? I remember going threw all that so many years ago. Anyway this is what I would like your in put on. He lives in Adams co. but he is a part owner in a bar in Denver. I know it is legal to carry in a bar unless posted at the door but is it wise? He spends most of the time behind the bar at night. If I go to a bar and don't plan on drinking I always carry but in that environment every night is it wise to carry all the time? I almost feel like being there all the time that you could about bet that at some point your going to have problems. At what point is it just a bar fight or problem, and when is it time to protect yourself? My son is a smart kid. He has taken a few advanced defense classes but is this just asking for trouble at some point in time? What are your thoughts on bar carry if you worked there?

[Zundfolge]

Carry into a bar fine (especially for owner going to work) ... drinking a single drink - gray area under both law and "good sense" (huge debate on that here on a regular basis ... lets consider that dead horse thoroughly beat) ... getting drunk in bar while packing, extremely bad idea.

[blacklabel]

If he's working and not drinking then I would say it would be unwise to NOT carry.

[SuperiorDG]

http://www.9news.com/news/local/article/324618/222/Shots-fired-at-Denver-bar

Did you see this. Tell him not to do this.

"They say security guards went outside and returned fire."

[JlazyH]

Carry into a bar fine (especially for owner going to work) ... drinking a single drink - gray area under both law and "good sense" (huge debate on that here on a regular basis ... lets consider that dead horse thoroughly beat) ... getting drunk in bar while packing, extremely bad idea. The first sentence is fine. The rest of it says nothing about my questions. It has nothing to do about my son drinking and carrying. I would say this horse isn't dead yet and your post is BS.

[hurley842002]

The first sentence is fine. The rest of it says nothing about my questions. It has nothing to do about my son drinking and carrying. I would say this horse isn't dead yet and your post is BS.

Zunds advice seemed legit to me? You came to the members for advice, not the other way around, please keep that in mind.

No offense, but if your son needs to think about rather he should carry in his situation or not, maybe he should re evaluate why he is carrying in the first place. I would absolutely carry in his situation. There isn't a single minute that goes by that I don't carry when legally acceptable.

[Great-Kazoo]

Does he drink while working.
Does he consume enough over his time spent working, that driving would get home a roadside test and or DWI ?

The flip side is IT CAN HAPPEN ANYWHERE, ANYTIME be prepared.

[Irving]

Guys he isn't asking about drinking and carrying. He is asking about carrying in a place that 1) is likely to have physical confrontations between patrons or patrons and staff on a regular basis, and 2) is even more often packed shoulder to shoulder with people.

To help get you guys on the right track, here are two situations:

1) You are behind the bar when a fight breaks out. A space in the middle of the floor opens up where two dudes are fighting. You can see because you are standing on the bar, but otherwise, the two are completely surrounded by a wall of people at least 20 persons deep. One of them whips out a 5" knife and starts swinging at the other. Do you clear leather and engage the guy with the knife?

2) Same situation as #1, only you are the other guy in the circle in the middle of the bar.

Same situation with a concert. You see a guy knifing people in the mosh pit, do you draw and fire into a mosh pit?

[JlazyH]

Thank You Irving. Must have been the way I posted my concerns about my son. You hit what I was trying to ask.
Guys he isn't asking about drinking and carrying. He is asking about carrying in a place that 1) is likely to have physical confrontations between patrons or patrons and staff on a regular basis, and 2) is even more often packed shoulder to shoulder with people.

To help get you guys on the right track, here are two situations:

1) You are behind the bar when a fight breaks out. A space in the middle of the floor opens up where two dudes are fighting. You can see because you are standing on the bar, but otherwise, the two are completely surrounded by a wall of people at least 20 persons deep. One of them whips out a 5" knife and starts swinging at the other. Do you clear leather and engage the guy with the knife?

2) Same situation as #1, only you are the other guy in the circle in the middle of the bar.

Same situation with a concert. You see a guy knifing people in the mosh pit, do you draw and fire into a mosh pit?

[Wildboarem]

I think every scenario is going to have to be judged on a case by case basis. your son is going to have to make a split second decision whether or not he is carrying if he is going to interject himself to defend a third party. I hope he knows the law and his rights. I hope his bar has a bouncer or security. In a place like that in a City like that I would absolutely be armed. He's an owner and a bartender, shouldn't be the first one to take a shiv anyhow. Hire a Bouncer to protect the patrons and then protect him and yourself. My 2 pennies worth.

[Irving]

Also, if the fight is big enough, and he ends up getting involved, he would really have to worry about a retention holster.

[cstone]

Work in a bar? This is what I would carry: http://www.karatemart.com/slap-jack

A gun is a last resort. Irving is right though, in crowds that often get rowdy, retention becomes pretty important. A pancake holster with a snap keeper with a shirt over it would be my choice.

What type of a bar is it?

[Irving]

I thought black jacks were illegal?

[JlazyH]

It's a pretty mellow bar. They do something different every night. DJ one night, live band one night, open mike night and so on. My son likes to carry in an IWB but when he is at the bar he has an ankle holster. He is the bouncer.

[King]

It's a pretty mellow bar. They do something different every night. DJ one night, live band one night, open mike night and so on. My son likes to carry in an IWB but when he is at the bar he has an ankle holster. He is the bouncer.

Knowing this, if I were him, I would certainly carry.

[Irving]

In a bar like his, the biggest worry is likely getting robbed at closing time I would think.

[Wildboarem]

Knowing this, if I were him, I would certainly carry.


It's a pretty mellow bar. They do something different every night. DJ one night, live band one night, open mike night and so on. My son likes to carry in an IWB but when he is at the bar he has an ankle holster. He is the bouncer.

I definitely don't recommend an ankle holster for a primary and no way would I have it in that situation. You in all likelihood have to get in a lower submissive position to draw ie. kneeling or crouched. No way to defend the gun and no way to protect yourself while drawing.

[Aloha_Shooter]

Guys he isn't asking about drinking and carrying. He is asking about carrying in a place that 1) is likely to have physical confrontations between patrons or patrons and staff on a regular basis, and 2) is even more often packed shoulder to shoulder with people.

To help get you guys on the right track, here are two situations:

1) You are behind the bar when a fight breaks out. A space in the middle of the floor opens up where two dudes are fighting. You can see because you are standing on the bar, but otherwise, the two are completely surrounded by a wall of people at least 20 persons deep. One of them whips out a 5" knife and starts swinging at the other. Do you clear leather and engage the guy with the knife?

The scenario you describe combined with my skills as a pistolero would say I do NOT clear leather. There is way too much chance of injuring an innocent bystander with the shot (and of course you have to think about retention of either of them have friends near me). I would likely keep the pistol in its holster and look for some other means to separate the two without getting knifed myself. Is there a fire hose or extinguisher available?


2) Same situation as #1, only you are the other guy in the circle in the middle of the bar.

Same situation with a concert. You see a guy knifing people in the mosh pit, do you draw and fire into a mosh pit?

Again, I'd be worried about overshoot and retention in this scenario and be looking for some other means to keep him at bay -- a chair or sidetable would be handy. Some of you might think I'm pansying out in these responses but while I like having the option of a firearm, it's not the only or even first line of defense. The last thing I need personally or we need as a community are overshoots in crowded spaces that result in headline-grabbing injuries or deaths among bystanders.

[hurley842002]

Some of you might think I'm pansying out in these responses but while I like having the option of a firearm, it's not the only or even first line of defense. The last thing I need personally or we need as a community are overshoots in crowded spaces that result in headline-grabbing injuries or deaths among bystanders.

This ^^ carrying a handgun isn't the be all end all of self defense or "use of force", it's simply an option in your box of tools. When certain scenarios cross my mind, many times my firearm isn't even my first line of defense, those of you in law enforcement can relate.

[SideShow Bob]

41 year old son ? Time to cut the apron strings and let him make his own desicisions concerning if he carries at work or not....

[TFOGGER]

If I were working as a bouncer (damned unlikely, as I'm not that big), I'd be inclined to carry IWB/tuckable, and have a less lethal option available, like a stun gun or taser carried discreetly but openly on my person, along with something like a tee ball bat under the bar counter.

[sniper7]

Always have more firepower than you need to. You can use less force than what you have on hand, but you are not able to use more force if it isn't available. For his situation I wold recommend a retaining type holster so in the event of a bar fight or confrontation the gun is much less accessible to the other guy.

Also have him think about the amount of non-targets in that environment and if he were to shoot someone the chance that other people would be hurt is much higher. Also as the owner of the bar what kind of insurance to protect himself if he were to injure a bystander.

[buckshotbarlow]

getting drunk in bar while packing, extremely bad idea.
Rich Wyatt doesn't have a problem getting sloshed and bragging about his pos 1911 on his hip at certain NRA functions...What a tard

[firefighter238]

Rich Wyatt doesn't have a problem getting sloshed and bragging about his pos 1911 on his hip at certain NRA functions...What a tard

Yup and look where it got him! [ROFL2]

[Shiro]

I would encourage carry, I would be very, very careful about what situation would result in a draw.

[Rabid]

The first sentence is fine. The rest of it says nothing about my questions. It has nothing to do about my son drinking and carrying. I would say this horse isn't dead yet and your post is BS.
If that is not the pot calling the kettle black i do not know what is. That was the first thing i thought of after reading your original post too. However there is no reason he should not carry as long as he knows his rights, the laws and the both the legal and social ramifications if he does draw it. I also agree that an ankle holster is not the best choice in the situations he is most likely to face.

[CO303]

OK. Legally he can carry at his place of work if his employer gives him permission. Open or concealed, once again is the owner's decision. If he chooses to use the weapon in any given senario, his actions will be open to question by police or jury like any other shooting event. Keep in mind, using a firearm should be your last and most desparte alternative. The presence of slcohol in the bar makes it worse. The idea of him drinking could shift the potential outcomes. He has to make a choice.

[nontactical]

I also agree that an ankle holster is not the best choice in the situations he is most likely to face.

This is actually one of the few situations in which I think that ankle carry is a great option. Having managed several bars and restaurants, I found that I would occasionally have to "bounce" someone. 99% of the time, this is not a big deal. But drunks will occasionally grab at you, etc. The last thing that you want in that situation is for someone to feel your gun on your hip. They are not very likely to come in contact with your ankle. While draw time from an ankle holster sucks, there are a lot of positions in a restaurant (for example, behind the bar) where kneeling down to grab your gun would make perfect sense. For me, ankle carry was the most viable alternative for bouncing people physically but having the gun there if it came to it. Something else to consider, if you are a decent restaurant/bar manager, you will eventually have a lot of people wanting to hug you "hello" and "goodbye." More than you want, actually. Another good reason to move the gun to where it won't accidentally be found.

[mackbamf]

There are a lot of landmines in this scenario. If a fight breaks out there is a good chance that you are going to be in a situation where you have people in very close proximity on all sides. Your hands might be busy in front of you, say someone bumps into you or grabs you from behind and realizes you have a gun. When drunk people tend to make very poor decisions, maybe they normally wouldn't try and grab for the gun but with their impairment maybe they do. They may not even be a participant in the fight, realize you have a weapon and go for it. Maybe you go to the ground breaking up or being pulled into the fight and your weapon comes out and a drunk gets a hold of it? If he then shoots someone with your weapon will you then be liable? Also, like has already been mentioned, can you really draw in a crowded room without becoming a huge liability yourself? I'm not saying that you for sure don't want to be carrying but I believe you could easily find yourself on the wrong side of a very thin line. Unless there is a real concern that a patron is going to pull a knife or a gun themselves a less lethal option such as a stun gun may prove the best option in this scenario.

[Irving]

Do what cops do when they work the bars, and use every other non-lethal weapon first. Works for them.