From 9News - Ammunition hampers firefighters at Monument blaze

[XDMan]

"MONUMENT, Colo. (AP) - Firefighters battling a blaze at a home in Monument say they were hampered by exploding ammunition as they struggled to put the fire out."

So, the way I read this, the firefighters may not have gone (probably didn't) into the house while the ammo was cooking off. I did a search here and found multiple topics on ammunition storage. Most suggested ammo cans, file cabinets, etc. I also saw the thread with the video on how ammunition in standard packages (up to a full pallet) is pretty safe even in a fire because without being in a chamber & barrel there's so little containment of the burning gasses that there is very little velocity imparted to the case and bullet.

So, while there may be little real danger from ammunition in a house fire it is very likely to be against fire department policy for the firefighters to enter a burning house with ammo cooking off. I don't see ammo cans, file cabinets, etc. being an effective fire/heat barrier to keep ammo from cooking off in a fire. First, is that a correct assumption?

Second & most importantly, what is a cost effective (read, "relatively cheap") way to store ammo so it will not cook off in a house fire. Or at least slow it way down...

Mods - I considered putting this in the Ammunition forum but thought it might be of broader interest than to just those who watch that forum.

Thanks.

Leo

[Ronin13]

I have not verified or tested this (perhaps they can address it on Mythbusters?)... but I have heard that ammo cooking off lacks any real velocity or control to even penetrate bunker gear (the clothing fire fighters wear)- even asking the old man (retired fire fighter) and he thinks that it really isn't as dangerous as one may expect.
Your best bet is to store ammo in something hard sided, I store mine in ammo cans.

[Clint45]

It is more dangerous than a M-80, but not too dangerous. The side of the casing ruptures lengthwise and there is some danger of fragmentation/splintering if you are standing right next to it. The more ammo burning, the higher the risk. I can understand firemen not wanting to enter that particular room, but the rest of the building would be safe. I have heard stories of firefighters refusing to get within 100 feet of a burning building once they heard there was ammo inside, due to ignorance.

[spqrzilla]

When a round cooks off unconfined, the bullet stays in place and the shell flies off at low velocity. Inertia. It is if the ammo is confined that a problem might occur and that's why the firefighters stay back.

[birddog]

Ammo is nothing to worry about unless its housed in a barrel.

[sniper7]

There have been multiple threads on this and one video j remember cooked off tens of thousands of rounds to prove it is not a big safety issue.

[kidicarus13]

"IF WE CAN SAVE EVEN ONE FIREFIGHTER..." ...oh sorry.

[XDMan]

I agree that ammo cooking off isn't really a big problem and tried to say the same in the first post. My bad if that didn't come across correctly. The first question was really just for confirmation that ammo cans, uninsulated cabinets, etc aren't effective in protecting the ammo stored in them from cooking off.

But, if there is a fire departments policy or simply reluctance of the firemen to enter my house with ammo cooking off, I'm still screwed. So, the second question. "what is a cost effective (read, "relatively cheap") way to store ammo so it will not cook off in a house fire. Or at least slow it way down..." This is the one I'm really interested in.

Thanks.

Leo

[liberty19]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SlOXowwC4c&feature=player_detailpage

This is a video from SAAMI on the subject. It is very informative but I cried when I watched it because of all the ammo they destroyed.

[merl]

So, while there may be little real danger from ammunition in a house fire it is very likely to be against fire department policy for the firefighters to enter a burning house with ammo cooking off. I don't see ammo cans, file cabinets, etc. being an effective fire/heat barrier to keep ammo from cooking off in a fire. First, is that a correct assumption?

Second & most importantly, what is a cost effective (read, "relatively cheap") way to store ammo so it will not cook off in a house fire. Or at least slow it way down...



line your filing cabinets with drywall, 1" at least, including the door. nothing cheap is going to help in a burndown but it'll hold off the fire until they get a hose on it.

[BushMasterBoy]

Black powder in a gun safe will explode like a 500 lb bomb dropped from a F-15.

[82ndShooter]

I believe that Mythbusters already has done a segment on cooking off ammo.

[jerrymrc]

Black powder in a gun safe will explode like a 500 lb bomb dropped from a F-15.

Link please.

[303sig1911]

Man I hope it wasn't .22, that stuff is worth it's weight in gold right now.

[Bailey Guns]

Ammo is nothing to worry about unless its housed in a barrel.

I wish I had a barrel full of ammo.

[BushMasterBoy]

Black powder is classified as a explosive. Sometimes it is even used in mining. It was almost exclusively used to mine before dynamite was invented. Some people I know purposely store black powder in their gun safe. They put a label on the gunsafe stating that the safe contains black powder and will explode if a cutting torch is used. The stuff will explode even if just struck by sparks from a grinder. Black powder can also be detonated by static electricity. Like reading about black powder? see link below

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder


http://hunting.about.com/od/blackpowder/g/blackpowder.htm

[DavieD55]

9 news Just trying to spoon feed more propaganda to the uninformed for the agenda.

[R&S]

Now I know why ammo is so hard to get [panic]

[patrick0685]

I believe that Mythbusters already has done a segment on cooking off ammo.

they did...it is the cases that have more of a chance in hurting you then to bullet

[KevDen2005]

All I took from this is that I can't find ammo anywhere and someone's house is burning and destroying a bunch of it...dammit!

[KevDen2005]

I believe that Mythbusters already has done a segment on cooking off ammo.


You watch too much TV

[encorehunter]

The way the ammo is stored has a lot to do with it. When our house burned down in 97, I had an unopened case of 22 lr in my bedroom closet. When the rounds cooked off, the up facing rounds shot like out of a firearm. The shell had no where to go because it had the weight of the rest of the case behind it. They had enough velocity to permeate the metal roof of the house. I had pictures at one time of the sunlight shining through all of the holes, but it has been misplaced after 15 years. One firefighter said he hadn't heard a firefight like that since Vietnam. Ammunition in metal mags turned the mags into twisted pieces of metal. The rounds were were most concerned about were loaded in revolvers and other firearms. We lost 32 firearms in the fire, I don't know how much ammo and about 15 lbs of black powder. The explosions were heard from up to 15 miles away. All five members of my family are competitive shooters, so it was a disaster loosing the ammo and guns.

[Troublco]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SlOXowwC4c&feature=player_detailpage

This is a video from SAAMI on the subject. It is very informative but I cried when I watched it because of all the ammo they destroyed.

Over 400,000 rounds! [Cry]

[wctriumph]

Ammo? You guys have ammo? Where can I get some?

[Jamnanc]

First the guns were the problem. Now the ammo will get you too.

[sniper7]

The way the ammo is stored has a lot to do with it. When our house burned down in 97, I had an unopened case of 22 lr in my bedroom closet. When the rounds cooked off, the up facing rounds shot like out of a firearm. The shell had no where to go because it had the weight of the rest of the case behind it. They had enough velocity to permeate the metal roof of the house. I had pictures at one time of the sunlight shining through all of the holes, but it has been misplaced after 15 years. One firefighter said he hadn't heard a firefight like that since Vietnam. Ammunition in metal mags turned the mags into twisted pieces of metal. The rounds were were most concerned about were loaded in revolvers and other firearms. We lost 32 firearms in the fire, I don't know how much ammo and about 15 lbs of black powder. The explosions were heard from up to 15 miles away. All five members of my family are competitive shooters, so it was a disaster loosing the ammo and guns.

Did you have good insurance on the guns, or how did homeowners handle that?

[hollohas]

Black powder is classified as a explosive. Sometimes it is even used in mining. It was almost exclusively used to mine before dynamite was invented. Some people I know purposely store black powder in their gun safe. They put a label on the gunsafe stating that the safe contains black powder and will explode if a cutting torch is used. The stuff will explode even if just struck by sparks from a grinder. Black powder can also be detonated by static electricity. Like reading about black powder? see link below

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder


http://hunting.about.com/od/blackpowder/g/blackpowder.htm

^This comment piqued my interest. I don't store powder in my safe, but I'd like to know if this is true or not anyway.

I think our resident chemist, SA Friday, should chime in here because I am having a hard time believing a gun safe will explode like a 500lb bomb if it has black powder in it. It was used in mining many moons ago, but a safe bomb?

High explosives (HE) used for blasting and bombs burn (change from solid to gas) with such intense heat and high rate of speed that they actually produce shock waves that propagate through and exert pressure on, any surrounding materials. A much faster rate of speed than black powder. To the best of my knowledge, HE classification has a minimum burn rate cutoff of around 3300fps and black powder unconfined is around 1300fps. For a point of reference, DET cord detonates from 7,000-8,000 fps.

Unlike smokeless powder that needs to be confined to produce high pressures, Black powder burns basically at the same rate of speed in a confined space or not according to SAAMI, but it still doesn't detonate.

Either way, unless the safe is FULL of black powder, I have a hard time believing a typical amount of black powder would produce enough pressure in a gun safe to make it a bomb. But I've been wrong many times before...

[Jer]

"MONUMENT, Colo. (AP) - Firefighters battling a blaze at a home in Monument say they were hampered by exploding ammunition as they struggled to put the fire out."

So, the way I read this, the firefighters may not have gone (probably didn't) into the house while the ammo was cooking off. I did a search here and found multiple topics on ammunition storage. Most suggested ammo cans, file cabinets, etc. I also saw the thread with the video on how ammunition in standard packages (up to a full pallet) is pretty safe even in a fire because without being in a chamber & barrel there's so little containment of the burning gasses that there is very little velocity imparted to the case and bullet.

So, while there may be little real danger from ammunition in a house fire it is very likely to be against fire department policy for the firefighters to enter a burning house with ammo cooking off. I don't see ammo cans, file cabinets, etc. being an effective fire/heat barrier to keep ammo from cooking off in a fire. First, is that a correct assumption?

Second & most importantly, what is a cost effective (read, "relatively cheap") way to store ammo so it will not cook off in a house fire. Or at least slow it way down...

Mods - I considered putting this in the Ammunition forum but thought it might be of broader interest than to just those who watch that forum.

Thanks.

Leo

I looked at a couple of safes that were basically the same save for the fire rating. When I took apart the liner of both I noticed that the one with a fire rating had standard drywall panels lining the inside of it. So there's your answer for a cheap fire locker for your ammo. Whatever you store it in just line it with drywall and that will help increase the amount of fire/heat it can take and hopefully buy you some more time before the fire dept arrives to start putting out the blaze. Obviously if it takes too long and the drywall fails and they start cooking off you're in the same boat but that extra time bought may make all the difference between saving your home and watching it burn to the ground over bureaucratic (i.e. no basis) rules.

[XDMan]

Thanks, Jer. Just what I was looking for. & I hope the drywall never gets tested...

Leo