Differences and similarities of civilian competition and combat shooting

[buckeye4rnr]

AKA why you don't take a 1911 to a fight. Article posted by a dude I follow on facebook and it was written by Craig Sawyer(Devgru)

Enjoy then fight...


Differences and similarities of civilian competition and combat shooting

I thought I would share a good article my friend Craig “Sawman” Sawyer wrote on the differences and similarities of civilian competition and combat shooting. Sawman is a Former Marine, Navy SEAL (DEV) & now a TV Personality on numerous TV shows and documentaries. Here you go…

The main parallels I see between combat shooting and competition shooting are that in each case, you need to be able to put your shots on a given target in a timely manner. Both disciplines can involve shooting, moving, reloading, and problem solving.

Other than those similarities, the two scenarios are worlds apart. One of the main points to consider in combat shooting is that your life is in immediate jeopardy. Someone is trying to kill you. This is simply never the case in civilian competition shooting. In my mind, that’s far and away the largest factor to consider.

In a life and death fight, the stresses on the shooter can be extreme depending on his background, level of training, mental prep and actual combat experience. One thing I’ve noticed about my own reactions to sudden, violent confrontation over the years is the lack of significant increase in heart rate. Looking back on my own experiences growing up as a fighter, I clearly remember getting a massive adrenaline rush and an elevated heart rate to the point that my fighting actually became less effective because of the physiological symptoms that come with an extreme elevation in heart rate.

Over the years, with more and more exposure to violence, I find myself much more calm under these conditions and making much sharper decisions and fighting much more effectively. The same dynamic applies to fighting with weapons as well. There’s no difference in physiological effect. A shooter who gets too amped is still likely to experience auditory exclusion, loss of dexterity, tunnel vision, repetitive tendencies and lack of mental clarity. All these things are detrimental in a modern firefight.

Because there is no sudden, inter-human violent confrontation, civilian competition shooting simply is unlikely to present such stress on the shooter. If the shooter experiences this level of stress shooting in a civilian sporting competition, I’d have serious concerns about his ability to perform to any degree, whatsoever, in a real life and death confrontation. Conversely, just because someone has performed well in combat, that doesn’t mean they will necessarily do well against experienced competition shooters in their environment. Someone who trains extensively for perfect conditions will absolutely become very good in those conditions. We all adapt to the stimulus we’re challenged with most often.

In combat, at least the spec-ops combat most of us are familiar with these days, the considerations of the shooter are many. The first glaring difference, after the fact that his life is in danger, is that it’s not all about him. He has specific responsibilities which are part of a coordinated effort. Let’s face it, in a spec ops unit we’re not worried about getting shot so much as we’re worried about failing to cover our sector or clear our zone which would get one of our teammates, our brothers, shot. In a tactical unit, we are together what we can’t be alone. The effectiveness of our unit is far greater than the mere sum of its parts. In single-man civilian shooting competitions, there is no such consideration.

Another aspect of combat shooting is cover. The combat shooter must also consider that he is a target and must make effective use of cover and concealment whenever possible. In such an environment, the shooter has to take into account how he is perceived by his opponent(s) as he moves through the fight. If a civilian shooter is not behind a flimsy plywood barricade, there is no harm. If a combat shooter fails to make effective use of actual cover from the specific weapon his opponent is firing at him, he can be injured, killed, or get others in his unit killed. This is a severe penalty that cannot be replicated in the sport of civilian competition.

I could go on and on with the differences, but those are the first that occur to me. I could easily add the fact that many combat engagements throughout history eventually close in distance to face-to-face proximity, resulting in hand-to-hand fighting to some degree, which isn’t for the faint of heart. The use of grenades, booby traps, IED’s, the many aspects of mastering various form of comms, night vision gear, lasers, illuminators, the various methods of fire support, insertion, extraction platforms, working with dogs, intel assets, emergency medical/trauma procedures, the heavy gear necessary to pull all this off, the physical training necessary to be an effective member of such a fighting force, and many more considerations all play a part in the overall scheme of a modern day combat scenario. So, in many cases, the shooting might very well be the LEAST of the considerations a combat “shooter” must weigh out at any one moment in time.

The last point I’ll make is on the tools of the trade. Civilian shooters love their tricked out 1911 race guns, which work so smoothly on the range when perfectly clean and lubed, with just the right ammo. I’ve owned and shot some nice ones. Impressive, to say the least. So smooth, they shoot “like buttuh!”

In combat, however, such a “Princess” gun is a liability that cannot be tolerated. In my experiences in the spec ops world and as an advanced tactical instructor, I’ve seen more malfunctions from other units’ fancy 1911′s than any other weapon, period. I’ve seen them fail in JSOC demonstrations to Congress. I’ve seen them fail on the ranges, with sights falling off, failures to feed, eject, etc, leaving the SWAT cops who were so proud of their fancy guns scratching their heads, wondering how their precious works of art could embarrass them so badly. Heck, I’ve even come back off SEAL missions with rounds spun backwards in my SIG magazine. Why? A little sand and salt bound up the magazine follower, preventing upward pressure on the rounds. Once the first couple rounds are fired, there is no more pressure and the rounds can tumble front to back… NOT what you want when you reach for your backup in combat.

With a weapon that is finely-tuned with very tight tolerances and geared for downloaded ammo, there just seems to be a far, far greater incidence of malfunction, especially with the introduction of any foreign material, like a bit of sand, carbon, lack of lube, etc. This is unacceptable in a weapon that must be counted on for survival. In combat, the weapon MUST fire, period.

Murphy’s law demands that when you need your sidearm, you’re in a fight for your life that is so pressing that your primary has already gone down, or gone dry and there is no time to correct it. Now you’re down to your pistol. Are you hit? Where? Your primary hand? Are you bloody now? How banged up are you? Helo crash? How many are coming for you? How close are they? How many of your teammates are hit? What is your position relative to your teammates? Do you need to continue to move to continue covering them as you press forward your assault? Do you need to sprint to get into position? Are you winded? Night vision focused, or splattered with anything? Are you covered in bile, spinal fluid, feces, dirt from blasts, hydraulic fluid, dust in your eyes, night blind by a blast you didn’t expect? Wearing a gas mask, sucking wind like a lung shot buffalo? Heart rate screaming? NOW shoot your civilian race gun with your bloody, weak hand.

Make sure to get a perfect grip, because that grip safety won’t negotiate. Get it perfect, or it doesn’t shoot. Great thought, huh? Oh, and don’t forget to flip that lever with your numb and bloody weak hand before you shoot, or you’re DEAD! Oh yeah, keep that lever from flipping up while you’re fighting for your life, because if it does, you die!! Oh yeah, don’t forget to change those single-stack mags twice as often with that one hand, because those thin single stacks don’t last but a couple seconds in a violent confrontation.

I know, you’re cursing me for pointing out that the “Princess” guns are not as cool as we all thought, especially after forking out a few grand for a big name brand. Well, some of those are the ones I’m talking about. Whatever a combat shooter chooses, it should be, above all, simple and RELIABLE under adverse conditions. Why? Simple. Inter-human conflict is an inherently imperfect scenario. A flawed arrangement. Struggle is awkward, ugly, far from glamorous, and rarely goes according to anyone’s perfect plan. A complicated and finicky sidearm is the last thing an operator needs to have to worry about when it’s all down to that. Just my take.

Rage on! SAW

For more from Craig please visit his site: http://www.tacticalinsider.com/ (http://www.tacticalinsider.com/)

Craig’s FB page: Here (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Craig-Sawman-Sawyer-Official-Fan-Page/129184427195815)
http://stevereichert.com/wp-content/uploads/DEV-Sniper-SAW.jpg (http://stevereichert.com/wp-content/uploads/DEV-Sniper-SAW.jpg)

http://stevereichert.com/differences-and-similarities-of-civilian-competition-and-combat-shooting/

If you hated that enough then just wait til I post the article about why to choose a 9mm over a .45

[KestrelBike]

All of that was obvious, didn't take me a career worth of SF experience to figure it out, either! And I really can't think of many competition shooters who would argue against anything he said, so did he spend all that time to rage against some trolls?

[KestrelBike]

All of that was obvious, didn't take me a career worth of SF experience to figure it out, either! And I really can't think of *any* competition shooters who would argue against anything he said, so did he spend all that time to rage against some trolls?

[buckeye4rnr]

All of that was obvious, didn't take me a career worth of SF experience to figure it out, either! And I really can't think of many competition shooters who would argue against anything he said, so did he spend all that time to rage against some trolls?

Sawyer wrote it because:
“I wrote this article right after training yet another SWAT team who had Kimber 1911′s and they were having trouble getting through simple drills without experiencing a wide range of malfunctions. When others were completing the combat shooting drills with ease, this team had a pile of single-stack magazines at their feet and were working through constant malfunctions. It was unfortunate to see, knowing they were carrying these pistols on duty.
Competition shooting is great fun and makes any shooter better, plain and simple. The tools for competition are appropriately different than for combat, just the same as a race car is different from a Hummer. Each discipline is trained to in a different way, for different purposes. That difference is important to understand. That was really my main point.”

[KestrelBike]

Haha I barely trust my RIA 1911 at an IDPA match (and more than the competitors' les Baer or springfields) let alone to defend my life with. If its your life, it's a Glock.

[Cylinder Head]

Aaaand this is why I only trust my HK's.

[brutal]

And I my Sig. To each his own.

[dwalker460]

I dunno, my 1911 has been thrown in the mud, filled with sand, doused in creeks, and many other things that would just scare you and in the 20 years I have owned it since I built it in college I have never had a single issue not ammo, magazine, or ID10T operator related.

[sniper7]

My xd models are nice! So are my glocks, my 1911s, even my revolvers!

[Byte Stryke]

I am of the firm belief

"It's your ass on the Line.. it's your decision alone to make."

anyone can sit back and make the "your gun is poop" arguments all day long, but whether you decide a Baer, G-Lock, lorcin or a jennings is your gun of choice... its your choice alone.

[Colorado Osprey]

I am of the firm belief

"It's your ass on the Line.. it's your decision alone to make."

anyone can sit back and make the "your gun is poop" arguments all day long, but whether you decide a Baer, G-Lock, lorcin or a jennings is your gun of choice... its your choice alone.


Agreed... and most will agree that if you shoot and/or collect guns at one time or another you will also own a 1911.
In my experience; If you shoot long enough........ you get over the 1911 and move on.
I was a die hard 1911 person. At one time I had 17 of them. At this time I don't own one.
My son has recently found the allure of the 1911 and was begging for one... but after shooting a couple already realizes its short comings compared to modern pistols.

[alxone]

I am of the firm belief

"It's your ass on the Line.. it's your decision alone to make."

anyone can sit back and make the "your gun is poop" arguments all day long, but whether you decide a Baer, G-Lock, lorcin or a jennings is your gun of choice... its your choice alone.yep , you guys can have that fancy crap ill stick to my crappy 213 (tokarev) for defense . dont get me wrong i like my 1911's just fine but a tokarev has 0 pride of ownership and is a fine shooter once you get the hang of it .

[streetglideok]

Only models I've seen problems with on 1911's are versions with "match barrels" and "tight tolerances". My Kimber, being a custom shop model, is pretty tight. It feeds factory ammo decently, but hates reloads. I use only wilson mags as well. My two Colts, one a Defender, and another a 90's vintage series 80 enhanced govt, eats everything. The kimber goes with me to the range to look pretty, the Colts are on my side as they are made with standard tolerances and work as Browning designed them. If I dont carry a 1911, then its my XDM. It has always gone bang. Another thing, 1911s have different lube needs and desires then say a Glock. I use strictly gun grease.

[RMAC757]

Aaaand this is why I only trust my HK's.

With your Cherry Creek based SOCOM Unit.

[MarkCO]

Well, if the posted reason for his article is the 1911, then the focus is misguided. Why rail on competition when he SHOULD have been focused on reliability. Done correctly, a 1911 is very reliable.

I actually agree and disagree with him on some points...MOST people have no idea what a stressor is nor what it will do to them. Competition does induce stress beyond what most people encounter. For the average CCW or recreational shooter, competition stress will point out the flaws in their technique, equipment and personal disposition that can then be worked on and tuned through focused training.

The ability to shoot, at high speed on the move is a very good tool to have in the operators tool bag, and one that is sorely missed by many "operators". Steel Challenge and other less dynamic sports probably have a little to offer, but when you mave to USPSA, there is more, and then when you move to 3Gun, even more. Competition, if pushed, does help the "no think" operation of the weapon systems leaving the operator with more mental and physical reserve from which to draw in order to fight fully. There are a handfull of highly trained operators who are also high level competitors...maybe Sawyer should have talked to a few of them before he wrote his article.

Anytime you are really good at one thing, you tend to diminish the value of other avenues of training, but that has proven to be in error. ALL high level athletes now cross train, football players take ballet lessons and swim, etc.

[spqrzilla]

I got tired of these kind of puffed up BS threads when the author was still filling his diapers.

[Gravy Sandwich]

Matches are to a shooter what heavy bags and light sparring are to a fighter. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Sharpienads]

I'm not a badass operator, nor will I ever be one. But this article seems a little silly to me. First, the differences he points out between combat and sport shooting are obvious. Second, why would you take a tight-tolerances "race gun" into combat? Third, why would you tell somebody not to carry a 1911? As said before, the decision on what you carry should be your decision, but it should at the same time be an informed decision.

Oh yeah, and since I'm not a badass secret squirrel operator like the author, I get to carry a Beretta M9 as a sidearm. I would much rather carry a 1911.

[Aloha_Shooter]

I've seen more FTFs and FTEs from Glocks and XDs than my 1911 but mine isn't tricked out nor do I shoot as fast as most with the Glocks or XDs. As Sawman points out in his editorial, I also don't have anyone shooting back at me nor am I worrying about finding effective cover.

My interest in IPSC is not to pretend that I'm SF or SWAT but rather to experience shooting from a different perspective than standing still in a range box plinking at a circular target (there's still a slight adrenaline rush albeit probably nothing to compare to actual combat).

I want to learn to control my shots while on the move and avoid overshoots or bad shoots. I will never be an IPSC grand champion, SF operator or SWAT team member but at least I can practice so I'm standing like a dumb struck plinker if or when I need to use my gun in real life.

[Sawin]

This reminds me of a quote I read somewhere a few years back...pardon me while I butcher it, but the point it conveyed was essentially the one above.

Colts, Kimbers, and Les Baer's are what you show your friends, Glocks are what you show your enemies.

[Professor Frink]

I've always been of the opinion that the modern 1911 is not what Mr. Browning ever wanted or designed. I have a WWI era 1911 Colt and a WWII era 1911a1 Remington. They both are loose, sloppy, have poor sights by todays standards, and if you shake them hard enough, they will rattle. However, they will consistently put 230 grain ball into about 4" inches at 25 feet which I think is just great. Its the tightening-up of the design that makes them problematic.

This is only my opinion.

Either way, you have to run what you brung to whatever curcumstance you find yourself in.

[buckshotbarlow]

Sweet more drama...I thunk that the author is right...Kimber sucks period! I'll take my 40 year old colt that has more rattles then my kids toys and carry it, but my glock/mp/airlight has to have a reason not to be in the holster first...

kid just repeated me on the BS flag...daddy what is BullSH*T

[Hoser]

Stuff like this always makes me laugh.

My gun rules and your gun sucks.

[275RLTW]

With your Cherry Creek based SOCOM Unit.
Unless you can tell me when you went to selection I don't think you're in a position to throw stones...there are some truths to this article such as: competition does NOT come close to combat however it does help with shooting fundamentals, and when your's or someone else's life is on the line make sure your gear is reliable, tested, and meets the needs of the mission. The 1911 vs other guns crap is all personal opinion as well as any 9 vs 45 implications. Take the article for what it's worth. Some of the statements are obvious to people, others may have never considered it before.

[Dingo]

Haha I barely trust my RIA 1911 at an IDPA match (and more than the competitors' les Baer or springfields) let alone to defend my life with. If its your life, it's a Glock.

Ah yes... there is another person like me out in the lonely gun interwebs.......

[Dingo]

I'm gonna say this, and then abandon this thread entirely before it degenerates into the dreaded 1911 vs Glock debate...

Now I'm by no means knowledgeable on every gun subject under the sun, and don't pretend to be. This is my experience only, before all the 1911 guys get butt-hurt and start complaining that the Army isn't using 1911's anymore "cuz they're dumb youngins". But I have owned well over 100 firearms (mainly handguns) over the years, and shot many more times that. The 1911 is the only factory gun that I'm personally aware of, in which gunsmiths specialize in making it reliable. "The Custom Reliability Package". Taurus tried to get it right by polishing the feed ramp and relieving the ejection port as a standard operation, but even the two Taurus PT1911's that I fired would often choke on stock ball ammo. (And no, I don't limpwrist my guns... it was a clean gun, with factory ammo, and years of shooting technique behind it.) Everybody's own Kimber/Baer/Springfield is of course, the magical rainbow-flavored exception to the rule which has never jammed, and feeds "flying ashtrays" like shit through a goose. But me? I'll take something that can hold more than 8 rounds, is boringly reliable straight out of the box, and doesn't need me to feed it a strict diet of expensive ammo, baby oil, and not hurt it's feelings.

[Dingo]

Also... absolutely anybody, with any level of training (or lack thereof), can pick up a Glock and expect it to fire every time they pull the trigger. Even if it's Jamal Chollo Tupac the 3rd, holding it sideways, limpwristing it, and treating it like it's a prop. Doesn't matter how you hold it, what you feed it, or what parts are installed on it. You don't have to learn a special grip, deal with safeties, or install custom parts.

Point, shoot, repeat.

[muddywings]

When it comes to training for combat, there is no substitute for someone shooting at you and trying to kill you.

So....I'll take what I can get which is why I just started competitive shooting. Better than standing still putting random holes in paper 15 feet away.

[buckeye4rnr]

When it comes to training for combat, there is no substitute for someone shooting at you and trying to kill you.

So....I'll take what I can get which is why I just started competitive shooting. Better than standing still putting random holes in paper 15 feet away.

What competitive shooting did you get into? I'm looking at it myself to switch up putting holes in paper.

[dwalker460]

Also... absolutely anybody, with any level of training (or lack thereof), can pick up a Glock and expect it to fire every time they pull the trigger. Even if it's Jamal Chollo Tupac the 3rd, holding it sideways, limpwristing it, and treating it like it's a prop. Doesn't matter how you hold it, what you feed it, or what parts are installed on it. You don't have to learn a special grip, deal with safeties, or install custom parts. Point, shoot, repeat.


Jamme...er ...Shot a Gen4 lately?
Glocks are nice pistols. I have one. Is a nice gun. It usually goes bang when I pull the trigger. It has in no way, shape or form demonstrated to me that it is a super pistol incapable of failure. Last local 3-gun match only one handgun on my squad the entire day had issues, and its initials were G-Lock. Doesnt mean they will all have issues, just that they are mechanical devices that will, at some point, fail.

[dwalker460]

What competitive shooting did you get into? I'm looking at it myself to switch up putting holes in paper.


I believe he was at the Noveske 3-gun match this past weekend. I was there too, but I did not perform as well.


Let me say one thing about action shooting versus the usual idea of competitive shooting. Most of us are ingrained to not move while shooting, as MarkCo said. In discussing my lack of performance at the weekends match there are several issues I need to work on, but shooting is not high on the list- groups are good and unless I over run a target I will put rounds where they count. Clearing stoppages (ammo related) on the rifle and shotgun? Nope, did fine there, barely paused and was not really even fazed by it. Running from one point to the next? Not too bad, I mean I am not a sprinter but I can move quickly as needed.
No brother, as MarkCO said, shooting while moving and loading the shotgun under stress are my downfalls. I noticed as I broke down the satges that I tended to move-stop-shoot-move rather than flowing from one target to the next. That adds serious time. I mean a lot. And its a habit most of us have ingrained from the first days our father took us out with .22's and scolded us for running around with bb guns. Even loading the shotgun I would step-stop-load-step-stop-load rather than continously moving. And that was even covered in the Pro runthrough with James that very morning!


All that said, I really love 3-gun and have a great time at every match!

[RMAC757]

Someone a little butt hurt? Where you looking for an opportunity to tell us when you went through selection? I enjoyed the article. Saying "and that is why I only trust HK's" with no emperical data seems....well a little fanboyish.


Unless you can tell me when you went to selection I don't think you're in a position to throw stones...there are some truths to this article such as: competition does NOT come close to combat however it does help with shooting fundamentals, and when your's or someone else's life is on the line make sure your gear is reliable, tested, and meets the needs of the mission. The 1911 vs other guns crap is all personal opinion as well as any 9 vs 45 implications. Take the article for what it's worth. Some of the statements are obvious to people, others may have never considered it before.

[muddywings]

I believe he was at the Noveske 3-gun match this past weekend. I was there too, but I did not perform as well.


All that said, I really love 3-gun and have a great time at every match!

Yup-Noveske match.

The reason why I say there is no substitute for someone shooting at you is because training has a broad spectrum of how good it is and can be. How many young 18-20 y/o hitting OEF for the first time in late '01 early '02 or OIF a few years later had really good training after a decade + of being in garrison? Going to the range with the M-16 and getting yelled at by a DI didn't keep a lot of those kids alive. SEAL training is as good as it gets so it easy to sit back from that standpoint and say competitive shooting isn't going to train you for combat. Well, neither does Basic Training. On a slightly different slant, I remember as I went through LEO training of a story of an LEO that had to pull their weapon and shoot a bad guy. The LEO drew, fired two rounds and holstered. Unfortunately the LEO didn't hit the bad guy and the bad guy won. Sound familiar? "Draw, shoot two rounds, holster."
As for comparing the race guns vs combat guns...sure, I get it. Watch a NASCAR race. How many of them drop out after a couple miles due to some technical issue. My '98 Honda Civic beater/commuter goes farther then those fancy multimillion dollar race cars so I think that analogy is a bit off base.
Back to competitive shooting. It can't hurt can it? I mean, being able to draw, present quickly, shoot accurately acquire a new target and engage, reload and engage again isn't going to hurt you in a combat situation unless you forget about those minor fundamentals such as concealment and cover. I hope somewhere down the road I can take one of those fancy courses from Magpul but for now, I'm happy getting into a new hobby and I think it will help in any situation where I do have to draw my gun for real.

[Dingo]

Jamme...er ...Shot a Gen4 lately?
Glocks are nice pistols. I have one. Is a nice gun. It usually goes bang when I pull the trigger. It has in no way, shape or form demonstrated to me that it is a super pistol incapable of failure. Last local 3-gun match only one handgun on my squad the entire day had issues, and its initials were G-Lock. Doesnt mean they will all have issues, just that they are mechanical devices that will, at some point, fail.

Agreed - not incapable of failure. Just not an entire gunsmithing collective built around making it reliable. :-) I think it's reasonable to expect that in most situations it will work properly despite the environmental conditions, training level of the shooter, or the ammo used. And yeah, I forgot they even made the Gen4's... I've shot everything prior to that extensively, but have heard mixed things about the 4's. Mainly that they shouldn't have fucked with the recoil springs... the Gen 3's were the pinnacle, and should be un-fucked-with.

[275RLTW]

Someone a little butt hurt? Where you looking for an opportunity to tell us when you went through selection? I enjoyed the article. Saying "and that is why I only trust HK's" with no emperical data seems....well a little fanboyish.

Yep. You're absolutely right! and no one is allowed to post their opinions here because they might seem a bit "fanboyish..." Thanks for your contribution to this thread.

[RMAC757]

Yep. You're absolutely right! and no one is allowed to post their opinions here because they might seem a bit "fanboyish..." Thanks for your contribution to this thread.

Your welcome

[jreifsch80]

i'll take my c75 or m57 yugo tokarev over anything

[Aloha_Shooter]

Agreed - not incapable of failure. Just not an entire gunsmithing collective built around making it reliable. :-)

My perception of the 1911 gunsmithing collective was that it was built around accurizing, not making the platform reliable. The 1911 has been a highly reliable platform over the 100 years since it debuted; it's just that a lot of the war surplus were understandably loose. Glocks are great pistols but they're not the end-all-be-all.

[Great-Kazoo]

My perception of the 1911 gunsmithing collective was that it was built around accurizing, not making the platform reliable. The 1911 has been a highly reliable platform over the 100 years since it debuted; it's just that a lot of the war surplus were understandably loose. Glocks are great pistols but they're not the end-all-be-all.

Correct, NOTHING is the end all - be all gun. What fits your hand, has overall comfort, AND what you feel the most confident with. For me it is a variety of hand guns, be it a full size 9mm or even the Sunday Go to Meeting High Standard 22mag. Each has it's place as is your personal preference.

Practice, practice, practice. 3 gun, idpa, ipsc etc. While not for everyone, something all should try, at least once.

[strm_trpr]

Good article, but murphy can bite any gun.

[def90]

Maybe IDPA should work random paintball shooters into their matches. :D You have to run the course all the while you could get hit with a paintball at any moment ending the match. No cheating by wearing heavy clothing or pads either. :)

[SuperiorDG]

Maybe IDPA should work random paintball shooters into their matches. :D You have to run the course all the while you could get hit with a paintball at any moment ending the match. No cheating by wearing heavy clothing or pads either. :)

Only if you can shoot back.

[Aloha_Shooter]

So what if IPSC or IDPA don't replicate the true experience of combat? They are still more realistic than standing in a booth and firing at a static circle. Running solo doesn't give you the true experience of a track meet either but it doesn't keep people from going out and practicing on their own. Scrimmages aren't the same as playing against the New York Giants or New England Patriots in divisional playoffs but it doesn't keep teams from running them.

I think the author's original point -- which wasn't framed well -- is that some people take their fancy toys too seriously and don't think about how they would function in the Real World. Unfortunately, he went past that point and spawned Glock vs. 1911 debates that really miss the point as well.

[streetglideok]

So what if IPSC or IDPA don't replicate the true experience of combat? They are still more realistic than standing in a booth and firing at a static circle. Running solo doesn't give you the true experience of a track meet either but it doesn't keep people from going out and practicing on their own. Scrimmages aren't the same as playing against the New York Giants or New England Patriots in divisional playoffs but it doesn't keep teams from running them.

I think the author's original point -- which wasn't framed well -- is that some people take their fancy toys too seriously and don't think about how they would function in the Real World. Unfortunately, he went past that point and spawned Glock vs. 1911 debates that really miss the point as well.

I agree. 1911's, and you could probably throw some glocks in this too as well, are prone to getting pimped out and overbuilt. If alterations are kept strictly in check with out going overboard, ie. beavertail safety, better mags vs match barrel, comp trigger job, and porting the barrel, the guns work as designed. Its the guys who go overboard, and as we say in the auto repair business: someone stuck a crap magnet on it and ran it thru Pep Boys, who have the reliability issues, parts breaking, etc. Just right now, we see this behavior more so with 1911s, but Glocks are creeping up. Race guns are just that, for competitions and showing off. Carry/Duty/Defense/Combat guns are all about reliability foremost, and anything you do should be to enhance that. In the case of 1911s, ditch the MIM junk, and leave the Les Baers, and other guns fashioned excessively tight at home. I don't want a tight match grade chamber, or a slide that barely fits on the frame. Those are the things that create issues in real world use. I also think that the author, while a noteably qualified source, is not the best writer, and lost what he was really writing about. I think if pressed about what he wrote, its all about pimped out race guns or safe queens being used for the wrong purposes.

[275RLTW]

I agree. 1911's, and you could probably throw some glocks in this too as well, are prone to getting pimped out and overbuilt. If alterations are kept strictly in check with out going overboard, ie. beavertail safety, better mags vs match barrel, comp trigger job, and porting the barrel, the guns work as designed. Its the guys who go overboard, and as we say in the auto repair business: someone stuck a crap magnet on it and ran it thru Pep Boys, who have the reliability issues, parts breaking, etc. Just right now, we see this behavior more so with 1911s, but Glocks are creeping up. Race guns are just that, for competitions and showing off. Carry/Duty/Defense/Combat guns are all about reliability foremost, and anything you do should be to enhance that. In the case of 1911s, ditch the MIM junk, and leave the Les Baers, and other guns fashioned excessively tight at home. I don't want a tight match grade chamber, or a slide that barely fits on the frame. Those are the things that create issues in real world use. I also think that the author, while a noteably qualified source, is not the best writer, and lost what he was really writing about. I think if pressed about what he wrote, its all about pimped out race guns or safe queens being used for the wrong purposes.
There is nothing wrong with tuned guns for carry/LE/.mil applications. I know of quite a few Baers/Wilsons/Browns/STIs in use overseas with select units and groups. There are plenty of Glocks there as well. The issue is, as I think the author was alluding to, is creating something too specific to meet the unpredictability and dynamics of combat. Again, apply the saying of: mission dictates the gear

[cjmore]

Great op and excellent thread. Sounds like some are trying to make this a one gun argument. There's the right tool for the job and then there's tools that'll get the job done.

A couple folks have touched on it as did the op but environment plays a huge factor in gun selection.

Im glad I have the option to choose which gun I carry based on the situation. That includes holster, mags and caliber. Then again so do those in combat, le, competition and ccw.

[DingleBerns]

Does anybody have the 9mm vs. .45 written by "Sawman", I think it would be an interesting read as well...

[buckeye4rnr]

Does anybody have the 9mm vs. .45 written by "Sawman", I think it would be an interesting read as well...

Written by Steve Reichert not Sawman but here you go... http://stevereichert.com/srs-handgun-caliber-choice-and-why/

[MarkCO]

Written by Steve Reichert not Sawman but here you go... http://stevereichert.com/srs-handgun-caliber-choice-and-why/

How bout a nice "Kydex vs. Leather vs. Ballistic Nylon" article? That will surely hack some folks off. [ROFL3]

[Chad4000]

Written by Steve Reichert not Sawman but here you go... http://stevereichert.com/srs-handgun-caliber-choice-and-why/

great article...

[Cylinder Head]

Someone a little butt hurt? Where you looking for an opportunity to tell us when you went through selection? I enjoyed the article. Saying "and that is why I only trust HK's" with no emperical data seems....well a little fanboyish.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/4027

Considering everyone needs to cite their sources whenever you enter a thread, here you go. 50,000 rounds, 1 stoppage. My "Cherry Creek SOCOM Squad" is at least well armed.

Todd from Pistol Training did the same with a P30. I have never had a stoppage with either of my HK's.

[RMAC757]

http://pistol-training.com/archives/4027

Considering everyone needs to cite their sources whenever you enter a thread, here you go. 50,000 rounds, 1 stoppage. My "Cherry Creek SOCOM Squad" is at least well armed.

Todd from Pistol Training did the same with a P30. I have never had a stoppage with either of my HK's.

Really....every time? Reference how many times I've done this.

[Cylinder Head]

Really....every time? Reference how many times I've done this.

You certainly seemed to want to bury yourself in my ass for making a comment about HK reliability. You really need empirical data or were you just making a douchebag comment for the sake of being a douchebag? Forgive me for assuming that on a gun forum, people knew that HK's are, if anything, reliable. If I said the trigger on my HK45 was like a Wilson Supergrade, then I can see you asking for data. Otherwise you're just trying to be an asshole.

[vectorsc]

I don't think anyone's gun floats my boat anymore as infallible. I've had 3 shit glocks out of the last 10, 1 bad hk p30l, so many 1911s that needed love...the steyr m guns...

A few of the gen 3 glocks were keepers though.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Kmanbay]

I am of the firm belief

"It's your ass on the Line.. it's your decision alone to make."

anyone can sit back and make the "your gun is poop" arguments all day long, but whether you decide a Baer, G-Lock, lorcin or a jennings is your gun of choice... its your choice alone.

Funny, this thread started out as a statment of the obvious between race guns and work, self defense guns.


It then turned into a 1911 versus the rest of the other guns.
Byte strike succintly summed it up right away.

Your gun=your ass. If it doesn't work when it is needed it doesn't matter how pretty, ugly, expensive or cheap it was because it just turned int oa family heirloom.

[jhood001]

I wonder if forums dedicated to the trades get once a month threads with people defending their Makita or DeWalt?

My guess is that most of them that actually work can't be bothered with it because their shift starts in 5 hours.


[beatdeadhorse]

[O2HeN2]

This is why when I got my 1911 carry gun built (by Gary Kimball in the 'springs -- he reincarnated my single stack competition gun he had built about 2 decades before), it was built for reliability rather than accuracy. In typical Kimball fashion, I got both. Probably not a bullseye gun, but I don't have the abilities to be a bullseye shooter! :)

Upon receiving it I ran 500 rounds though it without cleaning or lubing (no "break in" period like many mass-produced guns). Full mags, partial mags and the last 100 rounds limp wristing it as much as possible without hitting myself in the forehead (weak handed, elbow bent, wrist bent, both relaxed, gun about 18" from my face).

Not only ran, but locked open after the last shot every time. Though things were slowing down and making that awful schtick-schtick sound of slow metal-on-metal slide operation - 1911 shooters will know what I'm talking about! :)

If you haven't done a similar test with YOUR carry gun you should.

Climbing on my soapbox: Limp wristing is not a shooter problem, it's a gun problem. If your gun, especially your carry gun, does not run while limp wristing it, get the gun fixed. You may not always have a perfect grip or shooting position in a defensive situation and your gun should be 100% reliable, limp wristed or not.

O2

[james_bond_007]

Thanks for posting the article.
I will look forward to more postings from you.

I'm not going to comment on the content, as I know you are not the author, and the author would not have a chance to address any of my comments anyway.

[Kraven251]

Many have said it, hell the article says it.

You can take a 1911, Glock, HK, Tokerav, or pretty much anything that is spec and absolutely the bees knees out of the box and fuck it up by wanting to improve it.

I've walked back into the gun culture after being removed from it for a number of years. The first thing I noticed is everyone has something to say about how to improve X firearm. The moment you have modified anything at all, that firearm is different than the designer intended. At that moment you have a custom gun, capable of custom failures.

Are the vast majority of these firearms reliable? Yes, or the active duty members of agencies all over the world wouldn't trust their lives to these devices everyday. However, the moment you have people monkeying with the trigger, the sear, a safety mechanism, stippling a grip...you have modified the structure and possibly the reliability of the weapon. I have also met very few people in the culture that have not wanted to show off their "awesome fucking gun," and talk about the modifications they have made to make it the greatest hot shit weapon on the planet. Seriously, we have almost all been guilty of that at some point, because we are proud of our hardware. Sometimes though we need to leave it the fuck alone.

I think while the author of the piece had some very good points, he also failed to address that simple fact, everyone that works with these weapon systems long enough wants to be a junior gunsmith or wants that extra edge. That mentality while admirable introduces failure points that most likely weren't there before.

I hate stock sights on a Glock; I get them replaced. I love the feel of 1911's. I love shooting them, but as so many of you have said, some are great some are shit. The primary difference is all about what have you done to the firearm, have you tested and re-tested under use conditions, put 500 rounds through it in a setting to see what happens. The failure isn't always at the weapon, often it starts with the operator fixing something that really didn't need fixing.

[spqrzilla]

These Your Gun Sucks articles are just lame as hell.