I am pretty sure ATF raided EP that manufactured the offending lowers. Just didn't get as much air time as the Ares raid. Probably because Ares thrives on making a stink even when they say they don't. Don't get me wrong, I applaud Ares efforts.
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I am pretty sure ATF raided EP that manufactured the offending lowers. Just didn't get as much air time as the Ares raid. Probably because Ares thrives on making a stink even when they say they don't. Don't get me wrong, I applaud Ares efforts.
Manufacturer claims no contact with ATF.Quote:
Originally Posted by us1911
Lobbed from my electronic ball and chain.
They did: http://www.thebangswitch.com/ep-armo...ed-by-the-atf/Quote:
Originally Posted by clodhopper
You're confusing 2 different 80% lower companies... Polymer80 decided to halt production of their >DIFFERENT< design lower until they get a determination letter from the ATF...Quote:
Originally Posted by buffalobo
EP Lowers was raided, and has the design with 2 different polymers and the markings for the FCG pins... Ares was one of their distributors.
Polymer80's design is only 1 polymer, and there are no such markings for the FCG pin holes.
Ahhh, thank you for clearing that up.
Remember - this is the same government agency that stated, in a determination letter, that an ordinary 14" SHOESTRING, is in fact a fully-automatic machine gun. They have no requirement or desire to be logical or consistent in their findings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Circuits
Attachment 42491
A determination letter is utterly and completely worthless. The BATFE has, can, and will change their mind on a whim -- and then prosecute manfs who were making their product under that determination. There is no real rhyme or reason here (that I --nor a bunch of high priced lawyers -- can determine). If you make the ATF angry you will have your arse handed to you, and there is damn little you can do about it. Legally or otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by 68Charger
Quote:
Bill Akins, a Florida inventor, said the ATF initially approved his Akins Accelerator to increase the firing speed of semi-automatic rifles to simulate fully automatics, but later ruled the device illegal — leaving him with $500,000 worth of useless inventory.
In 2008, he filed a lawsuit against the ATF claiming the new ruling was arbitrary and capricious and violated his right to due process, an argument rejected by district and appellate courts.
“An ATF letter opinion is worthless,” he said. “It is not law, and it can be changed at the whim of a bureaucrat.”
Larry Keane, general counsel for the National Shooting Sports Foundation, said letter rulings can be “all over the map,” particularly on the point in the manufacturing process when a piece of metal becomes a firearm subject to federal law.
He said the rulings are determined on “an ad hoc basis” and that it is nearly impossible to comply with the law with no clear definition from the ATF and varying interpretations from the courts.
It annoys me that they can change their "rules" and the whole process is subjective. Just another reason to dislike alphabet soup agencies i guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by 68Charger
Point of semantics:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabid
People act subjectively when the standard is not based on a standard (an objective standard). Agencies act arbitrarily when (1) they make decisions based on no standards or (2) the agency makes different outcomes/decisions from case to case based on the same standards.
{ When the range becomes two-way, choose between being the fastest, most accurate shot or the fastest to cover... }
Quote:
Originally Posted by 68Charger
More semantics:Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkUSMC88
They are being subjective in their reasoning and arbitrary in their decision. That said the 4 ATF letters in the link are both arbitrary and subjective but i do not feel the need to argue semantics on a gun forum. I would rather have a discussion on what meaning of this is, [flamingo] , and when is the proper time to use it in a post.
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