Diesel pickups are for chumps

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Originally Posted by Gman

Supercharging a Tesla is not "free". https://www.tesla.com/support/supercharging

Modern oils have reduced a lot of the "pain" of regular maintenance. My car typically goes in for service annually.

You can tout the crazy acceleration of the Tesla, but this will also mean reduced tire life.

There is no free ride. If you want an EV, knock yourself out and get back to us about the concessions that you end up having to make because of the platform. We know people that own EVs, and they're not evangelists that think Elon Musk is the new Jesus. They end up driving their ICE vehicles in the winter due to the reduced battery performance in the winter and the amount of power required to run heating/defrost. They run into range/time issues and use their ICE vehicles. If you think that an EV will do everything you need, get one. Then when you run into a situation where you can't count on your EV, then please share.

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You'll notice that numerous times I mentioned Model S specifically. Just about every single used & new Model S I've looked at buying includes free supercharging for life.

Modern oils aside we're still talking about oil changes that are non-existent on an EV.

Really? Reduced tire wear is your big selling point for slow vehicles? C'mon man. Talk about splitting hairs.

You have friends that drive an ICE vehicle in the winter due to reduced range? I'm dying to know more details. Even with something like a first generation Leaf the reduced range in the winter will still cover 95% of the average driver's daily needs. I'd like more details because this sounds like a load of horseshit if that's their only reason.

I heard about the scooter burning a few months ago, but never looked into it to see what it was all about.

Whatever your free for life promo is, it's not printed in Tesla's information;

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Below are additional program details which apply to Tesla vehicles under the Supercharger program.
Model S and X receive 400 kWh (~1,000 miles) of Supercharger credits annually.
For usage above the complimentary annual credits provided, a small fee applies.
Model 3 does not receive annual Supercharger credits, and a small fee applies to Supercharge.

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Originally Posted by Jer

You have friends that drive an ICE vehicle in the winter due to reduced range? I'm dying to know more details. Even with something like a first generation Leaf the reduced range in the winter will still cover 95% of the average driver's daily needs. I'd like more details because this sounds like a load of horseshit if that's their only reason.

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Tested: How Cold Weather Affects EV Range

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Range anxiety is real. Take it from someone who has been stranded with his wife in an electric vehicle not once but twice: You’ll want to watch the distance-to-empty gauge of an EV with a close eye. This is even more critical when the temperature drops below freezing, which is exactly why we ran a 2018 Chevrolet Bolt EV on our 75-mph highway fuel-economy loop in icy February to gauge how low temperatures affect electric range.

Battery chemistry, like Grandpa and almost everything else in the universe, slows down when it gets cold. The result? The battery pack has less energy to propel the car. If some of the battery’s energy is used to warm itself to a more efficient operating temperature, that, too, will reduce the battery’s state of charge and the car’s overall efficiency. All EVs suffer substantial range degradation in cold ambient conditions; we used the Bolt to give us and you an indication of how much.

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How to Extend Your Electric Vehicle’s Range During the Winter

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Of course, drivers of gas-powered cars also deal with range loss and other issues in the cold, though they are not as magnified. But getting the most out of an EV in winter takes effort, especially when a car’s range is below 100 miles. Here are steps drivers can take to maximize an electric car’s battery life during winter.

Climate Control

Since EVs do not have the manufactured heat of a combustion engine, drivers must find creative ways to stay warm or otherwise sacrifice battery power. Actually, electric cars do not waste the type of energy gas-powered cars do (as heat), so greater efficiency is the source of the problem.
EV drivers have several methods for reducing battery consumption:

• Heating before you unplug. Cold temperatures make a plug-in climate system work hard to warm a car, so there is no point wasting that energy after you stop charging. Before leaving on a trip during winter, heat the car before disconnecting from the power source.
• Heated seats. Your car’s power system uses less energy to heat a seat than it would sending warm air into the cabin. Most EVs come with heated seats or offer the option, so consumers living in cold areas should take advantage of them.
• Layered clothing. The easiest way to conserve battery power is using little to no heat. Always dress in layers when heading out in winter so you can stay warm whether or not the climate control system helps. A scarf, hat and driving gloves complete winter attire in an EV.

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Originally Posted by Gman

Tested: How Cold Weather Affects EV Range


How to Extend Your Electric Vehicle’s Range During the Winter

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So pretty close to the losses I mentioned which doesn't render the EV absolutely useless. Your post uses wording that makes it seem like for the average user (10-15 miles per day) the EV couldn't meet the most basic of needs due to running the heater and defrost. This is absurd if it's what was being said. There's tens of thousands of these things driven year round and the observed range decrease is fractional even in the coldest of climates.

Again, ALL types of vehicles suffer issues in these conditions and if you look at the overall picture from a neutral prospective (very difficult seemingly for some) you will see that EVs tend to have less issues than ICE vehicles. We've just become accustomed to the issues ICE vehicles tend to experience in cold climates to the point where we don't even consider it abnormal any longer. That's not to say EVs are perfect and without their flaws (I not only mentioned the downsides but even assigned approximate numbers to give readers a basic idea) it's just that the flaws may be less of an issue to the average user than the flaws ICE vehicles are known to have.

Personally, I'd rather have a vehicle who's maximum range goes from 350 miles down to about 300 miles or 300 down to 250 on the coldest of days rather than simply not start due to numerous known causes. This idea that an EV with a 250 mile range becomes useless 5 months out of the year in Colorado is not only wildly inaccurate but is the sort of thing that people read and take as fact without any further investigation. Not only would I take the 40-50 mile decrease in range (if that's even the severity which I don't agree with based on first hand numbers I've seen posted) I'd do so gladly to get the added bonus of getting into a 70 degree car after only a few minutes of heating. We're all "used" to running an ICE car for 15 minutes in cold conditions (assuming the battery functioned in the colder temps well enough to crank it over or the diesel didn't freeze up or any # of potential problems) just to get it to an operating temperature to where it can START heating the cabin. With an EV you pull up an app on your phone, set the temp to 70 degrees and within minutes your entire car is at a comfortable temperature without any gas engine burning.

I don't mind having the EV v. ICE conversation as it's one the interests me but I think it's important that we try to not present myths and urban legend as fact because the more reading I've done on EVs over the years the more I see that most of the FUD concerning EVs is complete BS. So if someone isn't willing to invest the time to fact check and research I can see why they think EVs aren't quite ready for prime time. Is it right for a pick-up truck for everyone's use? Probably not. Could an EV pick-up based on today's technology fit me? It sure would if they built it. I have a feeling that, like most EVs, the current technology would meet the needs of at least 75% of consumers even though most think they're a joke based on something they heard from someone who knows a guy.

This doesn't even account for future tech as things are changing quite rapidly in the EV segment. Where we are now is quite a bit different than even 5 years ago. There's a good chance that in 5 years these random 1% type unique situations will even be able to be met by a EV.

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Originally Posted by Jer

So pretty close to the losses I mentioned which doesn't render the EV absolutely useless. Your post uses wording that makes it seem like for the average user (10-15 miles per day) the EV couldn't meet the most basic of needs due to running the heater and defrost. This is absurd if it's what was being said.

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That isn't what I said. Based on my co-workers commute, he either has to be uncomfortable during his winter commute to use his EV, or he can take his ICE with no issue. Electric heaters consume a significant amount of power since they're basically a large resistor that heats up when you run electricity through it. If you've ever had a home that has electric heating, you'd understand just how much that power costs you in the winter.

There are tradeoffs that some in this thread seem to be ignoring or minimizing.

Maximizing Electric Cars' Range in Extreme Temperatures

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ALL-ELECTRIC RANGE AND VERY HOT OR COLD WEATHER

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Extreme weather - very hot or very cold - impacts range in EVs. The additional heating or cooling needed for passenger comfort requires more energy than more moderate temperatures would. Cold batteries also have greater resistance to charigng and do not hold a charge as well.

Based on nearly 10 million miles of data collected through the EV Project, researchers at Idaho National Laboratory found that variations in weather can affect the range of plug-in electric vehicles by more than 25%. They found all-electric Nissan Leafs driven in Chicago in the winter had 26% lower ranges (60 miles compared to 81) than those driven in Seattle in the fall. Similarly, they found that plug-in hybrid electric Chevrolet Volts driven in Chicago in the winter had 29% lower ranges (30 miles compared to 42) than those driven in Chicago in the spring.

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My ICE vehicles start putting out warm cabin air within a couple of minutes of being started, in addition to heated seats, so I'm not sure where you're coming up with "15". I've also never had a vehicle that wouldn't start in the winter, because the battery is checked with maintenance. I've been living here for 22 years, so I've had plenty of opportunities.

As much as you would like to think that tech will change rapidly, there are some battery concepts that have been done in extremely tiny conceptual testing examples, yet there's no idea if they will work on any scale. I've been following tech quite closely, since I'm in the tech business, and whatever you think is just around the corner, is not even on the RADAR.

Beyond lithium — the search for a better battery

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However, research in these technologies largely remains in the labs with little sign of a full commercialisation on the horizon.

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Shut Up About the Batteries: The Key to a Better Electric Car Is a Lighter Motor

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Last year we proved our prototype motor in extensive tests on the laboratory bench, and though it will be a while before we can put the machine in a car, we have every reason to expect that it will perform just as well in that setting.

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It's not "FUD" when it's based on data. Ignoring the realities of the situation based on what you would like the situation to be doesn't help anyone. If you never leave the metro area in which you live, and your daily job doesn't require you to travel to each client's location, then your requirements are pretty low and can be met a number of ways.

So Jer, what EV do you drive?

You also brought up the differential in price per mile... in cold weather that gap is going to close somewhat, and it's also dependent on what you pay for electricity... I have the misfortune of living in an electricity co-op which is exempted from the power to choose your energy provider. My rate is $20 per meter, plus 10.48 cents/kWh... well above the standard they use to calculate the mpg equivalent of 7 cents/kWh, and I also do not fit in the model you describe of someone who drives 10-15 minutes to commute. All of these contibute to make the ROI not work out for me. If I could choose my power provider, there are some that have free electricity 9pm-6am... ideal for recharging an EV.

I work from home, but when I do drive it's either the 10-15min short trip for errands, or at least 30 minutes if it's big items... Costco is 45min away, work is 75min without traffic (if I leave before 6am). but I maybe go once a month.

Every time I run the numbers based on my reality (electricity rate, how much I drive, etc) It would take > 15 years for an EV to pay off (and that is with new vs new, not the reality where I would buy used and drive the car into the ground doing my own repairs), and by then the mileage is well above average life expectancy of the battery pack... I have a '07 Charger Hemi with 226k miles, never had the valve covers off.. I've had several other passenger cars beyond 200k miles. Only case where I was able to get it to 12.5 years ROI was if I was laid off and had to commute to Dallas 5 days a week- that's with an expected 36,000+ miles per year... how many battery packs, and at what cost would I need for 450,000 miles? (rhetorical, since it's beyond the average life expectancy for any vehicle... I won't believe for a second that EVs are immune to all wear and tear)

I'll be honest, if it was 100% up to me I'd own nothing but pre OBDII cars. So all the extra gadgetry and nonsense (giant touch screen, "smart" phone integration, etc) in Teslas is actually a bigger turnoff for me than the lack of an ICE.

So if someone were to bring out an ultra simplified (and if possible, somehow EMP proof) EV I'd be much more interested. At this point the Bollinger is the only EV I'm even remotely excited about.

The Tesla 3 excites me about as much as a Camry.


I've come to see EVs as being the car equivalent to Linux ... the truth is even though Linux is the superior operating system at a theoretical level, for the vast majority of users Windows or MacOS still works better (although keep in mind, all you Android and Mac users are basically already using Linux) :p. I like my Linux but I don't encourage people to switch anymore because I always end up putting in hours of free IT time helping them keep their machines afloat.

But EVs (like Linux) are for now at least the domain of hobbyists (and generally well heeled ones at that), when I can spend $2500 on a used EV that will give me as much functionality and practical use as a $2500 ICE vehicle, THEN we can talk.

Until then, you EV hobbyists keep doin' what you're doing and eventually the tech will trickle down to us proles.



And if I actually gave two shits about "saving da earf" I'd go biodiesel (which is better for TEOTWAWKI too ... which is almost as likely in the next couple decades as some super new battery tech that makes EVs the shit)

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Originally Posted by Aloha_Shooter

The range limits and charge times are REAL and very much a showstopper when you're doing 800+ miles per day.

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Dude, if you're driving 800 miles+ per day, every day, you are probably in the .005% of all drivers.

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I don't know where you get the idea that very few people attempt endurance driving as I've known tons of people who've done cross-country road trips. IIRC, Tesla's Supercharger gets the battery to 80% in 45 minutes. If you are doing over 600 miles, that charge added over an hour to your road trip, nearly 2 hours added each way for something like my recent drive to/from Tucson. I don't see a lot on Cannonball Runs per se these days but plenty of people do endurance drives whether it's driving between NY and FL or the East and West coasts, they just add in sensible overnight stops that you'd forgo in an actual Cannonball.

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I've done plenty of long distance trips. Notably from the Midwest to the East coast, Colorado to St. Louis, Colorado to Dallas/Ft. Worth, and Colorado to Vegas. But looking back on it, those drives likely account for less than 1% of all of the mileage I've driven. The bottom line is that most people simply don't take trips like that very often, maybe every couple of years. And yeah, no one is denying that driving an EV long distance is going to add time to the trip, but the fact is that people claim such trips can't be done at all and that simply isn't the truth. Yes, it adds time to a trip, no, I'm not happy about it, nor is anyone else, but the fact is that EVs (specifically Teslas) can and are taking long-distance road trips, contradicting those who claim it can't be done. Sure, you take a time hit, now, with current battery technology, but that's with what amounts to first generation technology, which is a pretty awesome feat.

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As far as I've seen, the MSM is in love with Tesla and Elon Musk. I don't know where you've seen all this negative coverage of Tesla except maybe in the autoblogs and car magazines where the authors and readers are interested in cars that actually finish the Nurburgring or Le Mans.

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The auto blogs don't like him. A lot of financial-based outlets (CNBC, Fox Business, Zerohedge, and Seeking Alpha) don't like him. All of the outlets under the Gizmodo banner constantly are excoriating Musk and Tesla on what amounts to at least a weekly basis,
and mainstream outlets like the NYT and WAPO have been throwing bombs at him ever since he dared to criticize the MSM via a tweet two or three months ago.

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There is a place for everything, including EVs, but a lot of the buzz about Tesla is just that, buzz and hype. If a Tesla or Chevy's Bolt fit your driving pattern, great. If they don't, traditional car manufacturers are still making incredible improvements.

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You're stating the obvious. Nowhere in any post I've made on the internet have I advocated that people buy vehicles that don't meet their needs. If you drive 800 miles a day, then, yeah, a 1st gen EV shouldn't be your first choice.

I had the same point. Probably 90% of people living in the city could have an EV as their main transportation and rent a vehicle for road trips the same way they can rent a truck the twice a year they actually use one.