Ramah/Ben Lomand IPSC

I'm looking forward to running a couple PCC matches in near future. That said I respect Charlie's rreasons. I can see how it could become a cluster pretty quick.

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Originally Posted by CHA-LEE

Not allowing PCC at HPPS matches goes beyond "What I like". Here are my six primary reasons why HPPS is not going to support PCC......

First, I don't want to dumb down the stages to allow for safe PCC shooting angles and challenges. Not to mention my props getting shot to shit because they don't understand there several inches of offset between their sights and the bore.

Second, I don't want to deal with dumbing down the start positions to allow PCC to safely start the stage along with all of the pistol shooters. Creating a secondary start position for the PCC division will only cause confusion for the majority of the shooters. I have enough to deal with during the match and answering the same question about the start position 9867932417498 times is not something I am willing to sign up for freely.

Third, I don't want to put a rifle rack on every single berm so shooters can store their guns in a safe location that keeps them from fiddling with it while people are down range. Bagging and unbagging a PCC wastes time since most stages have a decent amount of movement and you would need to wait for a bag to be brought to the shooter after the stage run.

Forth, USPSA Pistol matches are PISTOL matches, not carbine matches. If people want to shoot their carbines then they can have fun with them in practice, 3 Gun matches or rifle matches.

Fifth, The bulk of the people that would shoot PCC would want to do it as a Second gun for the whole match. This effectively takes that person out of the squad rotation of helping with anything. They are too busy screwing around with their guns, gear, or stage plans to help the squad run the stage. This is a volunteer sport run by the shooters. Not a consumer sport where everything is catered to the few who want to abuse the situation.

Sixth, The majority of the RO's at USPSA pistol matches have zero clue in ROing a shooter wielding a carbine. We don't have dedicated RO's for the stages and the shooters RO themselves. How does a non-Carbine knowledgeable RO effectively RO a shooter with a carbine? Very few local Colorado Pistol shooters have the Multigun RO endorsement. I don't want to force my volunteer RO's into ROing something they are not qualified to effectively RO.

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Well, I have to say having been in matches with all of the above because we were running PCC (years ago) and your fears are all BS. You have the option now as PCC is a provisional division. As soon as it's a legitimate division you will have a few choices; run the division or lose HPPS's USPSA sanction. You can figure it out now or not... It's coming and it's about time really.

Bummer. I wrongly assumed it was a range rules issue.

I think there will be a learning curve with PCC.

1. People have been shooting pistols with offset scopes since the mid 90s.

2. Leave stage design as it is. Close up with a carbine is just as fun as it is with a pistol even though it is a tad bit slower. Pistols are easier to shoot fast up close. Easy start position fix is to have all PCC starts low ready or port arms.

3. Unbagging and bagging carbines will add a few seconds to their time for sure. It will be a learning curve for the shooters to manage their stuff.

4. I didn't know USPSA was a pistol only organization. Guess they need to change their name.

5. Pretty broad assumption. It has not even been a division for a month so there is no track record. Or you could just say no second guns.

6. Most ROs are gun guys and I bet a majority of them own an AR-15 of some flavor. A carbine is just like any other firearm. Don't walk off the line with a loaded gun. Don't break the 180. ect.

People have been shooting carbines on stages traditionally built around pistol stages for ages. The sky has not fallen yet.

I have had more non competitive and non USPSA shooters asking about PCC these past few months than ever before. Getting them off the couch and out using their second amendment rights sounds like a good plan to me. Getting people trigger time with a carbine in a close up setting will let people know if a carbine will work as a house gun or not for them.

In the end I don't see PCC taking over USPSA, it will be like L-10, Single Stack or Revo. Just a few dudes here and there.

His fears might all be wrong, but they are his fears and he is holding onto them. :)

Please, Please, Please USPSA give me a reason to drop sanctioning. It would save us about $1500 a year in USPSA fees that we get zero in return for.

I don't know about your last sentence Hoser. PCC has been running crazy at a few matches that have run it for a few years now, taking HOA at several "pistol" stage matches. The companies that are making PCCs can't keep up with demand. It is like some people have never heard of the PCCs until like a few months ago. Marlin Camp 9, Storms, the Old Oly Arms, etc. are like they never existed. :)

The vast majority will be pistol shooters sure, but I think there are a good number of people who will be enticed who 1. Do not like pistols, 2. Have physical issues which make pistol shooting not fun. 3. Get their butts kicked on pistol, 4. Some 3Gunners practicing, 5. A few USPSA regulars who want an occasional change of pace. At least that is what the information coming from clubs with a track record have found.

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Originally Posted by CHA-LEE

Please, Please, Please USPSA give me a reason to drop sanctioning. It would save us about $1500 a year in USPSA fees that we get zero in return for.

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Then dump USPSA sanctioning... You don't need a reason. You clearly are not opened minded to change or what your customers may want. Dump USPSA sanction and go your own way.

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Originally Posted by MarkCO

I don't know about your last sentence Hoser. PCC has been running crazy at a few matches that have run it for a few years now, taking HOA at several "pistol" stage matches. The companies that are making PCCs can't keep up with demand. It is like some people have never heard of the PCCs until like a few months ago. Marlin Camp 9, Storms, the Old Oly Arms, etc. are like they never existed. :)

The vast majority will be pistol shooters sure, but I think there are a good number of people who will be enticed who 1. Do not like pistols, 2. Have physical issues which make pistol shooting not fun. 3. Get their butts kicked on pistol, 4. Some 3Gunners practicing, 5. A few USPSA regulars who want an occasional change of pace. At least that is what the information coming from clubs with a track record have found.

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We would get 3-5 shooters per monthly match at York, PA while I was there. I suspect it will be way more popular in some areas than others; trends of shooters and the local laws. It does have a ton of potential just like Carry Optic does.

If USPSA forces clubs to support PCC in pistol matches then it will be time to drop sanctioning or for me to step
down as MD. As it is defined today the allowance of the provisional PCC division is left to each club to decide. HPPS is deciding to NOT allow it.

If PCC is the next wave or level of practical shooting that is going to flood the ranges with new shooters then it shouldn't have any problem supporting its self in its own dedicated match. If it can't do that then there is no point in trying to cram it into a PISTOL match. It makes more sense to cram it into existing long gun or 3Gun matches where dealing with long guns is already established.

Charlie, you sound just like the guys who did not want Glocks, Red Dots and comps to "irreparably degrade" the principles of IPSC back in the 1990s, but they split IPSC into Limited and Open. Then the Revolver guys whined, and left and started ICORE, then the old guys got spanked and left and started IDPA.[dig]