Your "Go to home defense SHTF firearm!

The reality is that under the right circumstances bird shot can be an effective at stopping a human aggressor, so it buck shot and slugs too. Handguns trump harsh language, shotguns trump handguns and there is a reason troops are all issued rifles rather than shotguns loaded with #6 bird shot.

This is 2010 guys if you consider a firearm as part of your personal security then having a basic understanding of internal, external and terminal ballistics makes a lot of sense. It is disappointing to see people still bandying about "shock" theories and passing around completely erroneous information, especially if they pass themselves off as a "professional" or an "expert". Next thing you know someone will be advocating "blended metal" bullets and discussing "hydrostatic shock".

Cameron

While I am in agreement with you Cameron, for the record, he never claimed that bird shot was superior to buck shot, only that it penetrated walls less and could still kill a person. Like I said though, I still have a pretty hard time believing that bird shot from 37 feet away is liquidizing anything more than a soda.

I'm with Cameron. This one doesn't take a rocket scientist.

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Originally Posted by Cameron

That's just complete bull shit.

Cameron

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Remember guys to use LEAD bird shot so they can die a slow death of lead poisoning and you wont have too much drywall to repair[Swim]

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Originally Posted by coloccw

I've also had to deliver 5-6 5.56 rounds through a 110 lb hadji to stop one. Your opinion does not change fact. My experiences are true whether you believe them or not. Unless you have MD after your name, do some homework before throwing the BS flag.

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Although Cameron beat me to it, and his responses were right on the money, I'm going to post this anyway.

This is the link to "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness", one of the articles from which Cameron posted excerpts. It was written in 1989 by FBI Special Agent Urey W Patrick. Most of the information in the article comes from Martin Fackler, MD...probably the most preeminent wound ballistics researcher in the world.

So, I don't have "MD" after my name but the guy who supplied the research for this does. And, as was shown in Cameron's post, the effects of shock as a wounding factor are a myth.

This is 16 pages but they're short pages and it's a quick read:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

There's plenty more supporting information in Dr Fackler's various books and the website www.firearmstactical.com much of which is authored by Dr Gary K Roberts, another wound ballistics researcher with the IWBA.

I'm guessing Fackler and Roberts are a slightly better source than the latest issue of Guns and Ammo magazine.

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Originally Posted by Stuart

While I am in agreement with you Cameron, for the record, he never claimed that bird shot was superior to buck shot, only that it penetrated walls less and could still kill a person. Like I said though, I still have a pretty hard time believing that bird shot from 37 feet away is liquidizing anything more than a soda.

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Maybe the words bull shit were too harsh, but this guys anecdote that a guy get's shot with birdshot and experiences "Multiple organ failure due to the perforations and the shockwave from each projectile" and then adds "the shock from the multiple wound channels damaged the internal organs to the point where they were almost liquid." couple that with his story that a guy gets shot at 10 feet with buck shot and is discharged hours later. It was pretty clear where he was going.

Then saying stuff like, "Remember, it's not the bullet that causes most of the damage in a gunshot, but rather the over/under pressure to the air filled cavities in the body that kills somone.

What the hell is that?

there are only 2 ways to stops someone with a gun:
1. "psychologically incapacitated" They figure it is best to stop whether you shoot them or not.
2. "physiological damage" Physiologically, immediate incapacitation or death can only occur when the brain or upper spinal cord is damaged or destroyed, or if the CNS is uninjured, physiological incapacitation is delayed until blood loss is sufficient to deprive the brain of oxygen, this called hypovolemic shock.

Where is this information about "the over/under pressure to the air filled cavities in the body that kills somone."?

I mean seriously you say some silly ass shit like that on a public forum, especially if you claim to be: "I am a firearms, explosives, and medical instructor for Military and LE. Our company is staffed by former military special operations and LE operators, and the ONLY civilian company authorized to conduct Live Tissue Training (goat lab from SF course)."

I'm sorry man, but when I see tomfoolery like that I find it hard not to call some one on it.

20 years ago it was hard to get good information about terminal ballistics, but there is a lot of good information out there that can be easily found and digested if you have basic reading skills. I remember the days of ".357Mag can penetrate an engine block", "hydrostatic shock" "a shotgun will blow a man clear across the room" "a hit in the hand with a .45ACP will kill a man coz of the shock."

Man, those days are gone. We don't need those types of myths perpetuated on a quality forum like Colorado AR-15 Shooters.

Cameron

Home defense?

Well....

If they get past the moat:

First I feed them one of these from my mossy 500:http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalo...pecialtyexotic

If that doesn't stop them or light them on fire, then I load up a few of these: http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalo...lessthanlethal

If they insist on coming indoors, I'll give them 8 loads of this: http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalo...gauge-buckshot

And if that doesn't do the job, then I'll grab my AR and feed them an unlimited supply of this: http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalo...ncendiary-ammo

If the BG is still coming at me after all that, I'll just bend over and take whatever he has to offer. [Weight]

Soooooo, pretty much if atg goes down you're SOL?

Browning Hi Power, loaded with HPs, cocked & locked, in my easy to access closet safe.

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Originally Posted by Cameron

20 years ago it was hard to get good information about terminal ballistics, but there is a lot of good information out there that can be easily found and digested if you have basic reading skills. I remember the days of ".357Mag can penetrate an engine block", "hydrostatic shock" "a shotgun will blow a man clear across the room" "a hit in the hand with a .45ACP will kill a man coz of the shock."

Man, those days are gone. We don't need those types of myths perpetuated on a quality forum like Colorado AR-15 Shooters.

Cameron

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Thats like the 32-20wcf they claimed it would cut a man in half. lol