Caliber debates about pistols are worthless

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Originally Posted by hghclsswhitetrsh

I don't think anyone wants to stand against anyone in a fire fight.

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By this story: some of the evil mutherfuckers in this world will just do that...

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Originally Posted by Great-Kazoo

This isn't about standing against anyone. It's about someone making a statement. Hence Put up or Shut up.

I'm not questioning his pedigree. Having a structured shooting comp is way different than fighting for your life.

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Great One, I somewhat disagree with you. The original OP was about a po-po standing against a bad guy.. So, IMO, it is not only about one standing against another, but also the tools.

In the same breath; I agree with Cha Lee and disagree at the same time (oxymoron I know).

(Disclosure: all of these are my opinions!)

Do I think Cha Lee can hit a target under stress-yes.

Is it the same stress as a fire fight? Maybe; the human mind is a crazy f'ng thing...

Is he better prepared/trained than most of the jacklegs critiquing his statements? IMO-yes. I know g-damn well if I were to face the normal "gang banger" or skinny/hadji vs a Cha Lee: I'd take the former over Cha any day of the week...:)

But that does mean he has the right to critique those who have been in a fire-fight without being in one himself- Hell no. It comes down to mentality, experience, and training IMO.

My opinion.

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Originally Posted by <MADDOG>

The question that pops in my mind: who wants to stand against a Cha-Lee in a fire fight?

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I don't think that anyone here does. I certainly wouldn't. He is a fantastic marksman. And while I commented early in this thread, my intent was never to discredit a VERY good shooter.

At the end of the day, I know my particular job and I know myself. I TRY to know other people as best as I can. And because of those things I know this:

Working a job or doing anything day in and day out without regular and startling events events encourages and develops complacency.

Stake out? Sit and stare at nothing for hours on end and the details begin to blur.

Hunting? Spend enough time in the woods without a stabbing hunger in your belly and your efforts to get that trophy being to wane.

A sport? Spend enough time without a personal or team challenge and you start to believe that you are king of the hill.

Day to day life? Spend enough time just holding the fort down makes us start to ignore opportunities to get ahead.

My respect for the originally posted story goes to a law enforcement person that did a job day in and day out that was probably mundane 99% of the time. A vast majority of us could do that EXACT SAME JOB really well. The difference in who can do a job and who is great is when that 1% happens. I hope and pray that I am never there. And chances are really, really good that I never, ever will be.

And in the odd chance that I am put there, I can only hope and PRAY that I could do every bit as well Gramin did... And I will not, for a single second, look down my nose and say that someone who did a job day in and day out without event, who was then suddenly faced with the incredible, could have done a single fucking thing better.

He lived. Bad guy died. End of story and criticism.

And a big thank you to Gramin... You fucking STUD.

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Originally Posted by <MADDOG>

Thanks osok, I didn't see that.

Skinnys under kat hit with 5.56 did the same thing, but they were doped out.

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No problem. I think that everyone here needs to remember the title of the thread "caliber debates about pistols are worthless" the cop also mentions that if he had the opportunity, he would have gone for his AR in the trunk... A rifle is what you bring if you know you're going to be in a gunfight... caliber debates about rifles can now begin 7.62x39 vs 5.56 vs 5.45. Which is the best at everything? GO!

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Originally Posted by osok-308

caliber debates about rifles can now begin 7.62x39 vs 5.56 vs 5.45. Which is the best at everything? GO!

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6.8 SPCII IS TOTALLY THE BEST FOR EVERYTHING GUYZ FTW!!! [LOL]



After re-reading the story, I only have a few relevant thoughts:

1. Wow, Sgt Gramin got really, REALLY freaking lucky. First, Gramin was basically ambushed with no immediate escape route. Bad guy was shooting at his head though the windshield while only a few yards away, and then from just a few feet away through the side window and somehow didn't hit him? WOW. I can't believe he still had the wherewithal to get out and fight back after that.

2. Wow, he shot the bad guy WAY TOO MANY TIMES. I really can't believe how unlucky Gramin was in this regard. More than a dozen center of mass shots and the guy didn't go down? He just walked back to his vehicle and reloaded before coming back for more? WOW. I couldn't believe he wasn't on PCP or meth or opiates of some sort. Just insane.

3. Wow, I hope and pray that I am never in a situation like this. There is only so much mental and physical preparation one can do, and if I ever find myself in his shoes, I hope I am as lucky and quick on my feet as Sgt Gramin was.

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Originally Posted by osok-308

7.62x39 vs 5.56 vs 5.45. Which is the best at everything? GO!

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No 308 option :(

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Originally Posted by jhood001

I don't think that anyone here does. I certainly wouldn't. He is a fantastic marksman. And while I commented early in this thread, my intent was never to discredit a VERY good shooter.

At the end of the day, I know my particular job and I know myself. I TRY to know other people as best as I can. And because of those things I know this:

Working a job or doing anything day in and day out without regular and startling events events encourages and develops complacency.

Stake out? Sit and stare at nothing for hours on end and the details begin to blur.

Hunting? Spend enough time in the woods without a stabbing hunger in your belly and your efforts to get that trophy being to wane.

A sport? Spend enough time without a personal or team challenge and you start to believe that you are king of the hill.

Day to day life? Spend enough time just holding the fort down makes us start to ignore opportunities to get ahead.

My respect for the originally posted story goes to a law enforcement person that did a job day in and day out that was probably mundane 99% of the time. A vast majority of us could do that EXACT SAME JOB really well. The difference in who can do a job and who is great is when that 1% happens. I hope and pray that I am never there. And chances are really, really good that I never, ever will be.

And in the odd chance that I am put there, I can only hope and PRAY that I could do every bit as well Gramin did... And I will not, for a single second, look down my nose and say that someone who did a job day in and day out without event, who was then suddenly faced with the incredible, could have done a single fucking thing better.

He lived. Bad guy died. End of story and criticism.

And a big thank you to Gramin... You fucking STUD.

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/thread.
Well said!

One thing I completely forgot about that no one has mentioned: fine motor skills and gross motor skills. During stress FMS decreases, thus making tasks like "shooting for the head" extremely difficult, regardless of training, it's just what your body does.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

Back to the title:

I bet Gramin is thankful he was not carrying a .22 or .380.
Hitting the douche-bag in the vitals may not have stopped him as expected, but it likely slowed him down - as opposed to not being hit.
Shooting through a windshield with a small caliber would have been much less effective.

The Spec Ops guys chose the .45 over the 9mm for a variety of reasons.
Having a choice myself, I'll stick with the .45 for defensive carry.
Just Sayin.

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Originally Posted by cofi

No 308 option :(

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22mag up close and personal ;)

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Originally Posted by cofi

No 308 option :(

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The .308 is obviously the best if you have the money to drop on a semi auto rifle chambered in it

Put up or Shut up challenge..... Really??? How about you guys put in the hard work and dedication to earn a Grand Master Classification in any USPSA division and then we can talk about setting up a Put up or Shut up challenge. Otherwise, why would I waste my time to prove to YOU what I already know I can do???