Dangerous flaws in gun database

As usual, this article is very misleading. What's so dangerous?? There is no Colorado "Gun database". What they are referring to is a record of some CCW permit holders. We all know there is no gun registration in Colorado. But when other anti-gun types read this now, they are going to push to "fix the system" which will turn into creating a gun registration.

Also, to my knowledge, the counties are not even required by law to report their CCW permit issues to any state database...that's why so many don't.

And again, correct me if I'm wrong, but FFL's in Colorado are supposed to turn around and shred your paperwork after your background check comes through and you buy a gun. At least that's what I've been told.

Most people watch too much CSI on TV and think every gun in the country is registered. If they knew that's far from true I think we would have many more people standing up and pushing to make a registry and this type of article could potentially create that problem just because of the misleading headline. [Rant1]

The best way to fix the "flawed" database is to delete it. There is no valid reason for its existence in the first place, and many times, bad information is worse than no information. I'm all for the safety of police officers in the performance of their duties, and if they derive a false sense of confidence from the use of this database, then it unnecessarily places them at risk.

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Originally Posted by hollohas

And again, correct me if I'm wrong, but FFL's in Colorado are supposed to turn around and shred your paperwork after your background check comes through and you buy a gun. At least that's what I've been told.

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Exactly what paperwork do you believe the selling FFL's are "supposed" to shred after completion of the background check?? Seems like they'd want to retain those records to prove that a background check was executed and the transfer was indeed authorized.

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Originally Posted by hollohas

As usual, this article is very misleading. What's so dangerous?? There is no Colorado "Gun database". What they are referring to is a record of some CCW permit holders. We all know there is no gun registration in Colorado. But when other anti-gun types read this now, they are going to push to "fix the system" which will turn into creating a gun registration.

Also, to my knowledge, the counties are not even required by law to report their CCW permit issues to any state database...that's why so many don't.

And again, correct me if I'm wrong, but FFL's in Colorado are supposed to turn around and shred your paperwork after your background check comes through and you buy a gun. At least that's what I've been told.

Most people watch too much CSI on TV and think every gun in the country is registered. If they knew that's far from true I think we would have many more people standing up and pushing to make a registry and this type of article could potentially create that problem just because of the misleading headline. [Rant1]

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No, the FFL's are required to keep all paper records for ATF inspection and when they finish with their FFL, they are required to ship all documents to the ATF back east. They cannot put those records into a database, and do hand searches of those records at the request of law enforcement, when so asked.

Initially, when CCW's were inputted into CCIC, there wasn't a code for it, so the agencies began to put them under the code for (outstanding) warrants. This has changed and now there is a code that shows the person has a CCW, when cleared. I remember clearing license plates of vehicles in front of me and the registered owner is automatically cleared through the software. I can't tell you how many vehicles I would see the warrant query code pop up and I would begin to follow them closely while bringing up the data only to find out it was a CCW, then veer off and go some other direction.

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Officials are entering data about a person's race and occupation, for example, and even listing Social Security and driver's license numbers in addition to the actual information requested on the application.

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People actually give out the SSN on 4473's and Concealed permit app?

My litmus test for if you get my SSN:
are you paying me wages/employing me?
are you loaning me money?

I've never put it on a 4473, and didn't put it on my CHP app... yet I've never been denied.

And I agree- delete the database:
AK, AZ and VT don't require permits for CCW, much less keeping a database of permits issued...

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Originally Posted by OneGuy67

No, the FFL's are required to keep all paper records for ATF inspection and when they finish with their FFL, they are required to ship all documents to the ATF back east. They cannot put those records into a database, and do hand searches of those records at the request of law enforcement, when so asked.

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I guess I was confused. Don't know much about Federal law but the Colorado law only says that records must be maintained by the FFL for pistols and revolvers...no mention of long guns...


12-26-102. Retail dealers - record - inspection.


Every individual, firm, or corporation engaged, within this state, in the retail sale, rental, or exchange of firearms, pistols, or revolvers shall keep a record of each pistol or revolver sold, rented, or exchanged at retail. The record shall be made at the time of the transaction in a book kept for that purpose and shall include the name of the person to whom the pistol or revolver is sold or rented or with whom exchanged; his age, occupation, residence, and, if residing in a city, the street and number therein where he resides; the make, caliber, and finish of said pistol or revolver, together with its number and serial letter, if any; the date of the sale, rental, or exchange of said pistol or revolver; and the name of the employee or other person making such sale, rental, or exchange. The record book shall be open at all times to the inspection of any duly authorized police officer.

deleted.

Deleted? I guess you read 12-26-102 again and noticed that it didn't say records must be kept of "firearms" sold but it says firearms dealers must keep records of "pistols" and "revolvers" sold...am I right?

No, I read the definition in 12-26-101, which is where you get the definitions of terms used in the statutes. I was going to go into the reason why Colorado doesn't make a big deal out of long gun issues, but I've beaten that to death in previous posts, so I decided to not continue the effort.

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Originally Posted by hollohas

Deleted? I guess you read 12-26-102 again and noticed that it didn't say records must be kept of "firearms" sold but it says firearms dealers must keep records of "pistols" and "revolvers" sold...am I right?

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I got news for ya. The federal government, including the ATF, doesn't give a rat's ass about CRS 12-26-102. And, frankly, neither do dealers.

Maintaining records of firearms transactions (by licensed dealers) is controlled by the feds...not the state. Off the top of my head I can't think of any Colorado statute (including CRS 12-26-102) that a dealer won't comply with, in terms of keeping/maintaining records, by following federal law during the sale of a firearm.

To a dealer the process required for selling a single long gun or hand gun is exactly the same (other than checking the buyer's age) and the record-keeping requirements are exactly the same.