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I think you need to do a little more research on the consumption tax, aka the Fair Tax. A consumption tax is nothing more than a federal sales tax. It has nothing to do with how much you're worth, but rather how much you spend. It would be a certain percentage, like 13%, and would only apply to new products at the point of retail. Neal Boortz has a good book about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TSOTSI
Fair Tax or flat tax, I'm all for anything that simplifies the tax code.
Wow... somebody feels passionate about this one. I don't think that anybody has a problem with collective bargaining within a business. Unfortunately, with the way government and businesses and unions are entertwined today, unions are my problem, even though I don't belong to one nor have I ever. When a union contributes to the downfall of a company, like GM, and it gets bailed out with my money, it becomes my problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by hghclsswhttrsh
Furthermore, how does one union (UAW) that represents workers from three competing companies help anybody? Why do public servants need to be unionized? What right does the NLRB have to block Boeing from building a new factory? Why is joining a union compulsory for some jobs?
It should be the job of the shareholders to keep a corporation in check. And the "help" should also remember that they have a job because of the CEO, and everybody else that made the company what it is. Union workers, like any worker, should get paid what they deserve, based on the market value of their labor, not some arbitrary value.
As for your next "dumbass non-union comment", your argument here is flawed. We all know there are lazy people that get by on the hard work of others. But they should be fired, whether in a union or not. Your argument that lazy non-union workers justifies lazy union workers doesn't work. Sorry.
It should be the right of workers to unionize, just like it should be the right of a CEO or owner of a business to fire anyone he wants to. The last sentence of your post is intriguing. You make it sound like you are entitled to a certain wage, whether your labor justifies it or not. Wages should be based on the assesed value of your labor by whoever is in charge of signing paychecks.
I guess what I'm really tired of is this perceived struggle between worker and business owner. Both are dependent on each other. One shouldn't try to take advantage of the other. A worker should go to work to work, and an owner should go to work to run his business. Both have rights, and one group's rights don't outweigh the other's.
Oh, I don't begrudge your right to organize, If you feel you're not smart enough to make it on your own, and need to be one of the sheep, go for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by hghclsswhttrsh
One more thing, And, you can consider this a warning, Next time you use an insult toward any member, that I consider anything other than normal "good natured" barbs, You will have a 7 day vacation.
And you're wrong on several points, every time you "debate" it.Quote:
Originally Posted by hghclsswhttrsh
I don't care what you do with your money. But when a union charges dues to sustain itself so it can keep costs of goods and services that I consume artificially high, it becomes my problem and I look for ways to solve that problem. That usually means buying a less-expensive alternative (read imported). Having said that, I go out of my way to buy American when I can. But unions are making that harder for me to do all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by hghclsswhttrsh
This statement qualifies for the MOST STUPID STATEMENT EVER ON CO-AR15. You really are a moron. No one owes you anything. And corporations exist to make money for shareholders. Period. And you have a job because a business owner decided to produce a good or service that the public will buy. You have a job because of the business owner or corporation, not the other way around.Quote:
Originally Posted by hghclsswhttrsh
I think someone needs to go back to school and take some basic civics and/or economics classes.
Wow...that pretty much says everything about you I need to know. Unions, and people like you, need each other to make it in the world because you can't do it on your own.Quote:
Originally Posted by hghclsswhttrsh
Well, I can find my right to own a gun in Amendment 2 to the US Constitution. Which amendment covers unions again?Quote:
Originally Posted by hghclsswhttrsh
Now, I'm not arguing that you shouldn't be allowed to legally unionize. But to say that is a right on par with ownership of firearms shows your complete ignorance of the US Constitution.
I've made a fairly nice living for myself without ever being propped up by union slugs. I've never needed a union to make a decent wage.Quote:
Originally Posted by hghclsswhttrsh
All excellent points Bailey, but you left out the part where union positions that are artificially expensive lead to outsourcing... why would a for-profit corporation continue to pay for expensive union labor when an offshore company bids it WAY lower?
This doesn't always apply, when the jobs are physically here- (or does it? undocumented workers are cheaper) but the point is, you're pricing yourself out of the free market.
I've also never been part of a collective bargaining agreement, but earn a decent living for my family based on my abilities and what I contribute. Since I've been there for 14 years, I must have some value...
ETA: Marlin, he can hurl insults at me if he wants- I won't ask for any suspension... can't be any worse than what I endured when on work assignment in Maryland- doing a CWA job while they were on strike.
You're right I am very passionate about this. I have worked several non-union and one union job. My last job I was an iron worker, non-union. When I got hired on they were paying very competitive to other companies doing similar work. I was offered free health insurance after 6 months so on and so forth. Well at month 5 for "lack" of work I was laid off for 3 days. I was brought back and at month 6 I was expecting this employer to start my insurance as promised. Nope didn't happen, terms of employment with this company start over after being laid off. I was at work every day on time, worked my ass off, got my required certifications, traveled, etc etc etc. This pattern continued for TWO AND A HALF YEARS. Now how is this fair? It's not, could I have protested this to some labor committee for the state of Colorado? Maybe who knows? I didn't have the time to, I was working like everyone else.
As far as the being over payed comments - you're right I do make good money. But I have more licenses, certifications and training than most small business owners in this state(for my industry). I don't receive my money just because of a contract. I get paid what I do because of the services, expertise, training, and knowledge that I have acquired. And rightfully so the company charges their labor rate according to all that I have listed above. The Union contract between a said Union and Company is very important for BOTH sides. The Company has certain expectations of me, and I have certain expectations of the Company. I can see it now - WOW look at the entitlement this guys has, he actually expects something from his employer HOW BOLD. You're right I do. I expect to be treated fairly, paid accordingly, and continue to be trained and groomed for the position I uphold. And in return I am going to go to work, WORK HARD, provide excellent service with a great attitude, work safe, uphold the right company image, be honest etc etc etc.
I will say that I apologize to whomever feels like I attacked them. Which I did, and I do apologize, I just get tired of this discussion. That being said I will read everyone's rebuttal but I am done responding - I should not try and can not change anyone's opinion. - I am going to go learn more about guns.
Oh and Marlin - perhaps you should give yourself a "vacation" for insinuating that I am not smart enough to make it on my own. Also thank you Bailey for your over all assessment of my intelligence, I needed someone to clarify it for me.
Oh I wasn't stating you specifically, Just IN my experience, I just haven't run across too many union types that were real good at thinking on their feet.
Who knows you might be one of the rare exceptions.
I'm sure I'm going to piss off our local union rep here but ... it IS my experience with unions in my industry.
I work as basically a stagehand( well I'm really a lighting designer .. been doing this for almost 20 years now ) Some of my WORST days are days I get told I'm gonna have union "help". I find union stagehands to be the laziest, most overpaid, least knowledgeable folks in my industry.
I make a decent wage. the only way that union guys make more then me are with 4 hour mini's. and overly low overtime starts.
I Did almost join the local union recently.. but that was since I work at a venue here in town and the management was jerking us around. pay was "low" ( I only worked there for a bit of extra cash and only on shows for bands I wanted to see) and the BS meter was rising. if we had been able to get the vote to go that way I would have been given a union card flat out...
Otherwise you have to work for years.. and start at the bottom of the pool to get to a card.. if they vote you in. It's bullshit I have 20 years experience. and that counts for NOTHING. I'm sorry I can't start back at the bottom. My skill level is too high to go back to shucking cable around or laying carpets down at the convention center.
So if I had gotten my "house" to go union .. blam I get a card... but otherwise I have to kiss as and work shit jobs for years to get the card???
yeah No thanks... keep your bullshit to yourself.
Sorry to hear that you got screwed over at your last job as an iron worker. But if the company screws its employees like that, why would anybody want to work for them? And if that's the only job you could land, shouldn't you be happy that you at least have a job? There's got to be some sort of legal recourse if an employer purposefully lays you off and then rehires you repeatedly to get out of paying benefits. At least I would think there is.
But it sounds to me like you have a good work ethic. If you want to join a union, be my guest. As I said, I don't think most people have a problem with the idea of unions or collective bargaining. But to put a blanket over the unions and say they're good is ridiculous. It's like complaining about government. I complain about the government all the time. That doesn't mean I want anarchy, I just want the government to do what they are allowed to do per the Constitution. Nothing more, nothing less. Should be the same with unions.