I really need to join this range or one similar
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I really need to join this range or one similar
Here it is. Not in stone yet, but getting close. http://forum.snipershide.com/images/smilies/smile.png
LR Steel Range Proposal submitted to CRC BOD on March 13, 2014.
The CRC high power range has been utilized for persons who desire to shoot long range steel, however, some recent problems have occurred. This proposal seeks to:
1. Address the interests of the wide array of CRC members
2. Allow those who desire to shoot LR steel at CRC that opportunity
3. Minimize policing of the ranges and member conflicts
4. Minimize costs to CRC for maintenance of this range.
There are several options for how CRC can provide members with the opportunity to shoot LR steel.
Option 1
Placement of two permanent steel gongs placed at the far East side of the High Power impact berm. The gongs would be AR500, 10” and 16” rounds (~$500). Signs would be placed at the flag pole, the covered line, each intermediate berm , on the road to the pits and near the pits that states:
ONLY approved AR500 targets are allowed on this range. Member targets may only be placed directly west of the steel gong on the impact berm up to 50 feet from the west gong.
Option 2
Create a new range between East Range berm 1 and the Silhouette range. The firing line would face North to Northwest. Berms would be constructed at distances of 600, 800, 1000 and 1200 yards. The firing line will be uncovered and defined by signage and boxed in flattened earth approximately 20 yards N-S and 40 yards E-W. On the East edge of this area, a roof, a barricade and a doghouse will be constructed and utilized as shooting positions. CRC owned steel (2 per berm, ~$2000) is an option as would be member owned steel. Both options have pros and cons that should be explored.
Option 3
Add new berms at 800, 1000 and 1200 yards to the Silhouette range. The new berms could be placed slightly to the east of the current berms and 3 or 4 positions on the .22RF side of the canopy could be designated for LR steel.
Option 4
Build an unknown distance range between the Schuetzen and High Power ranges. With the combination of some berms already present, this would reduce the cost. A berm placed 30 to 50 yards to the east of the newly built Schuetzen range combined with an end berm at 1200 to 1300 north of the Schuetzen firing line would create a range more appealing to both Long Range shooters as well as military and police agencies desiring to train and or practice unknown distance shooting without a defined firing line. The shooting area could be defined with minimum and maximum forward lines.
Other Options?
There may be other viable options as well. For instance, it may be possible to create LR berms beyond berm 13 on the East ranges.
Implementation
Regardless of option, the members who desire this type of shooting acknowledge that persons lacking the skill and or experience to practice this type of shooting can be problematic. While restrictions are not desired, these members would be willing to adopt some use restrictions if the BOD is willing to explore one or more of these options. A qualification process can be subsequently proposed that a member would have to complete prior to use. Irrespective, it would make sense for CRC to implement a zero tolerance policy with respect to unapproved target use. None of us want the range property damaged, or worse yet, to have it closed due to improper use. Sign-in, sing-out logs, lock boxes for the range “HOT” and “CLOSED” signs or flags and even the actual targets, are viable means of controlling access to a LR range or set of targets.
Other than the construction of the berms, the members bringing this proposal are willing to furnish the time, labor and material to construct shooting line, lockboxes , constructed shooting positions and the targets/hangers. We will also create a safety protocol and conditions of use agreement for CRC BOD approval if so desired. Further, it is anticipated that if option 2-4 are implemented, it will be utilized for at least one monthly match.
Option 1 could be implemented in short order while it is understood that options 2-4 would require times and resources of the BOD and volunteers. We believe that a dedicated long range steel range is practical, will generate income for the club, and will solve some of the issues that have occurred by incompetent persons using steel on the High Power range. Once a LR range is completed, the High Power range steel use allowance could be modified.
These proposals were presented to the CRC BOD with the support of the following members:
It's not March 13th yet. Is this what you plan to propose to the BOD on that date?
option 3, that range is meters.
Option 4 is the grail, it would have a sawtooth grading to create mini berms all the way back to the big one at the end? (and narrow but long)
YesQuote:
Originally Posted by ray1970
Understood, but the intent would be to only shoot the long stuff from a few of the East stations and there is no reason to keep the "m" since they don't shoot silhouette out that far. If we can get them to consider Option 4, there would have to be a dialog. If that idea is open, I would try to create a working group of members and the BOD to work on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by merl
I was thinking that mixing units on the same range would be frowned upon. It could be fun to see who remembers that the front ones are not yds though.
Not sure it is worth mentioning the steel cost for anything except option 1. The other costs just in moving dirt would dominate unless you are attempting to distract with a relatively low number.
Even if it only results in the first option I support it, can add my name to it FWIW.
Do you like the red door or the blue door sir? :)
Well, today is the day we will see what happens.
Good Luck! [Beer]Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkCO
The Board voted unanimously to remove the restriction of no steel on the High Power Range. A notice should be up on the CRC website in a day or two which will also state that the steel must be placed on the impact berm.
In addition, the board desires to implement Option 1 with club owned steel that will be restricted to use by members who sign off on a use policy and the steel will be in a lockbox. An area will be constructed on the East side for the target hangers as well as a leveled area where members can place their own steel. They would like a recommendation for usage and restrictions of same.
The Board also agreed to evaluate Options 2-4 to create a place for LR steel shooting.
Don't know what more we could ask for. [Flower]
Honestly, a sign would be a wise investment. Sure, they can put it on the website, but a couple of 50-cent laminated signs at the bunker and at each firing line could go a long ways.
That will happen in concert with Option 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by J
Excellent job sir. Thanks for your hard work getting this situation fixed. I like your proposal for the addition of a dedicated range, but this is a good start. Just wanted to say thanks.
One of the biggest problems out there is even if you find someone doing something blatantly wrong or even a simple educational opportunity there is little to no follow up through the Board. Examples being the occasional individual that sets up steel of the 600, 700, or 800 yard firing position and than proceeds to blast away at it from the 1000 yard firing position thinking "their steel is in the impact area" Some of them just can not get it through their head that their steel is placed on a firing position and not an acceptable impact area behind the target area. When the light bulb goes off that they can put the steel at the backstop and set up on the 200, 300 400 yard firing positions it really is sad to watch the clock in their head turn. Yet in these situations there is no penalty involved. Board ask after you provide names license plates, and video or photo proof........ "did you tell them", "did you stop them", well then thats that. While there are rules in place CRC must implement some way of actual follow up and enforcement penalty or its all just hot air. Hell I was talking to one of the board members tonight and he was shocked to learn (as he put it) that there was no actual language in the rules as relates to where to place steel out there. We would all hope that people would understand and common sense would dictate it be placed at the berm but there is no actual language written to that affect.
Thats the hard part of it for me is the fact that I am so vocal about not wanting "certifications" but understand the difficulties of managing the range and the rules required.
I think the board as a group learned some things during the meeting. While I do not feel it appropriate to disseminate the discussions of other topics, I was encouraged by their discussion of some of the things you mentioned USMC88-93. I hope that, if nothing else, members will see that the board are as well members, and want what is best for the club. There are topics that they need to learn about, but they have consistently shown that they are open to such, if given the opportunity.
A new position was created, which will come out, that will be helpful in terms of reporting persons who violate range rules.
First: MARKCO.... Thanks for your work on this.
Second: Not to sound too dumb but could somebody draw out what is expected for where is good/not good for steel placement? Verbally it sounds like a person might think they are within the rules when they are not and then, as USMC88 points out, miss what is intended.
As long as it is AR500, we are good-ta-go?
I'll let Mark comment on the new policy but in the past you placed your steel where the bullets hit the berm. There are obvious ruts in the berm behind where each target comes up. This is where the bullets hit the berm when firing at the paper targets. Set your steel there so a miss hits the same rut the paper targets make and a hit splashes out onto the berm.
Yes. Here is a picture as well. Attachment 42073Quote:
Originally Posted by merl
Your the man Mark!
Thanks, that is exactly what I was looking for.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkCO
Essentially above ground hog and below numbers directly in front of impact area. Steel would shot at in the "paper target impact area". Extraneous video and pictures for those that have yet to visit or shoot at CRC
<-- Video from in pits.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...psce49f4a1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ps6f8c9e05.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ps3f879425.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ps3beed626.jpg
Just a little follow-up...
Those of you who sent nasty-grams to the BOD over this issue might consider an apology-gram at this point.
Those of you who sent e-mails with your requests, a follow-up thank you to the BOD might also be nice.
People tend to bitch and moan and then never say thanks. The BOD serves the membership by being voted into office and your support for decisions you agree with is just as important as letting them know when you do not agree.
As soon as an announcement goes up they'll get a nice thank you email.
If it remains a hidden feature like east range clearance then no.
Still no announcement on the website but I did see the PDF linked here. Where is that found?
Frankly, if I didn't happen upon this thread, I'd have no idea anything changed then changed again.
And will those accepting the use policy be charged a $10 fee?
On a side note, the one thing that I wish they would put out there is a solar or electrically powered key pad gate with individual codes for each member, that way the gate could stay shut and there could be some sort of monitoring of member access.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...4-28101714.jpg
I'd guess it is left open for match access most Saturdays
http://crci.org/RangeProtocol/tabid/624/Default.aspx
Checking the posted rules as those were changed quietly there is this in the highpower section:
There is no blanket steel ban for the highpower range.Quote:
7. Any supplemental target not mounted on the Pit Target Frames, MUST BE placed on the impact area of the backstop. Placing any target in front of or on the pit building is PROHIBITED.
I see there is also a blanket ban on wearing handguns, I seem to recall an exception for concealed carry before.
Quote:
4. Wearing handguns in Holsters is PROHIBITED on CRC property.
NOTE: Exceptions to wearing handguns in holsters on CRC property are: Law enforcement officers in uniform. On the East Range only, shooters are authorized to carry guns in holsters while participating in, or practicing for, organized events such as USPSA Pistol, Steel Challenge, Zoot, Cowboy Action, etc.
There is also a new ban on steel at the 100/200yd range, was not mentioned before.
If that is the only result I see no reason for any new thank you email.
Denny ordered signs today and the order for targets has been placed as well.
merl, sent your thanks e-mail yet?
Two pieces of steel and a stand for the HP range, 4 pieces of steel for the Silhouette range and 2 pieces of steel and a stand for the 200 yard (berm 13) have been ordered.
Steel is NOT allowed on the 100 yard (berm 12) east range bay.
Where is the Silhouette range placement, are they adding distance to the range or within the current distances?
Berm 13 is 100 yard with 3 sides, and berm 14 is 200 yards with 2 sides. Shouldn't the allowance of steel be opposite?
Replacing current gongsQuote:
Originally Posted by USMC88-93
Depends on how you count the split berm, I have been counting it as one berm. You can shoot steel from the pad on the 200 yard, but you can not shoot steel in the 100 yard berm.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeusExMachina
What is the rationale behind the east berm steel ruling (as well as the draw certification)?
- the design of open pistol berms -such as the east berms- is to facilitate IDPA/USPSA/Steel Challenge type events AND ALLOW PRACTICE FOR SUCH SPORTS to take place.
The 'outpouring of protest' pertained to the restrictions on shooting of steel targets throughout the facility. - if such a thread had been started earlier I'm sure that the draw restriction would have elicited the same angry reactions from people. - This is the first time the BoD has cared to put an ear to cries of protest.
If this thread is what the BoD is referring to when mentioning a large protest then we need more of it.
The Bod seem very out of touch if the steel shooting sports have crept up on them. This is years in now... We need to keep up.
this whole knee-jerk reaction restriction nonsense - starting with the 'QuickDraw certification' isn't LIKE panic legislation... This IS panic legislation.
MarkCO- I know you are pressing for our club to adapt and keep relavant and attractive to shooters in these 'new' sports, but there must be a better way of keeping the BoD from going all NYC on us... There has to be a better way.
Panic sets in for me when I think of having to use a public range to practice steel challenge- especially knowing that the club that hosts the matches has decided that individual practice of the sport is 'too dangerous'.
What kind of message does that send?
Not yet. I want to add a question directly about concealed carry as the rules seem to have changed there. But there is on reason to combine them so I'll drop a short thank you today.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkCO
Would steel would be allowed at the 100y berm along the same rules as the rest of East, no centerfilre rifle? Someone want to do offhand with their hi-point it would be OK.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rustycrusty
I will try to combine these two questions as it was my error...Quote:
Originally Posted by merl
Rifle (centerfire rifle calibers), on steel, is not allowed on ANY of the East full bays. The 200 yard berm CAN have centerfire shot at steel provided the targets are set back in the berm AND you shoot from the elevated pad. If you want to shoot .22RF or PCC on steel in the rest of the East bays, that is okay provided you have the clearance. On the club provided paper backers, sure, you can shoot CF rifle. When you use the provided backers RETURN them to their storage location and PICK UP YOUR targets and trash (directed at whoever is a range pig). I will say this. The BOD looks to be more inclined to suspend or revoke memberships for those who do not take care of the range. Just follow the rules, they are not that hard.
However, to say the BOD does not listen, or that this is the first time they have responded to protest is ignorant of what the BOD does and or has done. EVERY single time I have asked to address an issue with the BOD, they have listened and responded. My history at CRC is only a few years, but I believe great strides have been made to both improve the facility and to understand the needs of the practical/tactical shooters coming into the club. I asked for the split berm as well as the 100 and 200 on the East range just to afford more options, and the BOD approved the funds and got them built. Now they are looking at the creation of a new range for LR steel.
That said, there have been some serious issues with safety, ignorance and just plain stupidity by some new members. When one is a straight line bench type shooter and they see the new folks come in and then they see those types of actions, I really can't blame the BOD, given their understanding and history, to impose restrictions. I see my "job" as helping the BOD understand the needs of the P/T shooters even as they try to balance those with the "traditional" type of members. And learn they have, even participating in many of the new events. We still have yet to have a BOD member try a 3Gun match, but every other match type one of them has tried, even if just to understand the basics. Show me any other club where that has happened.
Personally, I do not like the CCW restriction, but I have not addressed it with the BOD for a variety of reasons.
As for the restriction on "quick-draw" and movement, realize that is WAS a prohibition. I asked for variance, and was granted such, by the creation of a clearance procedure. I know some people are pissed about it, but at the time, it was the path to get it allowed. I think there are maybe a dozen people TOTAL who have requested such and maybe 10 or so have actually completed it. Yes, it costs $10 to get the flag, which I paid for and just get reimbursed. Yes it is inconvenient. However, if you have shot ANY form of organized P/T match and understand about the issues related to proper steel placement in a berm, it will seem almost stupid easy to you. I have driven out to the range 3 times and the people who asked did not show up, so now I only do it when I am going out anyway. Show up at a 3Gun match or a USPSA pistol match, I will probably be there, but I would still check first.
Previous post of mine may have painted the BoD as villains- not my intention.
I see the club growing and changing for the good- I mean to speak strongly against the changes that I see detrimental to the club.
The BoD does seem a bit removed from these conversations- and decision making at the top could be more transparent simply due to inefficient communication methods. Email is great, the website is getting better. Both of those methods are communications from individual to BoD or opposite.
A forum like this for members to collectively talk about issues at CRC is needed. This would also be a great place for identifying the reckless shooters ruining it for us all. Creating a forum that the BoD can reference, and post on ,would be a large step towards addressing the communication void. It would build a more unified group among CRC members.
It is hard to have an idea of member desires as a whole without such a forum, as many of the members will keep their qualms or ideas to themselves rather than individually speak to the board. I am trying to do less of that, but I recognize that my previously unvoiced concern is not unique.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rustycrusty
I laughed out loud, that was funny.
What about pressing the board, or a portion of its members to at least attend a portion of the Noveske multigun event to get a feel for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkCO
I will certainly invite them. I think they came out for Noveske in 2012, but not in 2013. What cracks me up about three gun is the response from people seeing it the first time, especially top level shooters. They have one of three responses typically. 1) I could never do that. 2) That looks dangerous. or 3) I want to do that!
I do read the discussions about this club, and other clubs, and I obviously participate on many levels in the P/T types of shooting. I agree that keeping the discussion going is beneficial, and I will do my best to convey summaries to the BOD as best I can.
For now, while it might taste bad, one of the things that is needed is for all members to self police. If you see a member doing something wrong, feel free to have a polite conversation. If you see someone with out a badge that is not part of a formal match, ask them to put on their badge. If either goes poorly, gain some distance, take a photo of the car with the plate and such and report it to Steve Fowler. I fully believe 95% of the members don't even need rules. Maybe 4% need some rules to keep their lack of common sense, understanding of principles in check and 1% need to have their memberships revoked. Education is key to moving the 95% to 99%, but 1% will just always be bad apples. Identify and remove is the best policy, and I think the BOD sees that.
My hope is that I can get someone to step forward as the MG match director in 2015 and then I might just try to run for the BOD myself. :)
The signs are done and I have $1600 of steel sitting in the shop that needs to get set up. Who needs some workbond time worked off? I am thinking I will go out on Friday morning.