Modifying Magazines to Limit Capacity

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Originally Posted by bellavite1

Because it pisses my off to throw $60 away like that because of my idiocy...[Rant2]

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Discard or don't. Lesson learned riiight? ; )

Let me rephrase:
Anybody knows of a method to remove Loctite from an assembled baseplate of a Pmag?

See below.

Blue torque.
Red torch.

All I've got. : )

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Originally Posted by ChickNorris

Blue torque.
Red torch.

All I've got. : )

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I was hoping for something like acetone or some solvent.
Although, taking a torch to them right now is quite appealing...
Well, thanks anyways.[Beer]

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Originally Posted by ChickNorris

Blue torque.
Red torch.

All I've got. : )

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My bad, neither.
Now that I remember it is just plain Superglue (a well deserved name, it turns out...).

If it IS superglue, you're correct, Acetone.

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Originally Posted by bellavite1

So, in order to travel through Denver without issues I limited some PMAGS 20 rounders to 15, with those magazine blocks.
Well, they have just too much tension now and, loading them to 15, I cannot charge the handle and they do not drop free.
Since I am an idiot I already PERMANENTLY attached the floor plates with Loctite.
Maybe a little too permanently...
How can I remove the Loctite to dissassemble the mags and shave just enough from the magblock for correct function?
[Bang][Bang][Bang]

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Give it a week or two. That loctite will probably eat through the plastic by then.
Still unsure why anyone NOT a Resident of Denver is bothering to do anything other than drive through there.

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Originally Posted by Great-Kazoo

Give it a week or two. That loctite will probably eat through the plastic by then.
Still unsure why anyone NOT a Resident of Denver is bothering to do anything other than drive through there.

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Although not a resident, I do have family living in Denver and avoiding the area is not an option.
Back to the point:
I have read, in relation to the old "Denver assault weapon ban", of confiscations of 30 rounds magazines inside Denver County from non-Denver Co residents.
SUPPOSEDLY, the firearms were also confiscated, falling under the OLD assault weapon definition (a firearm with magazines that accepted more than 20 rounds), and the vehicle seized.
Although not being a resident was indeed to be considered affirmative defense against the charges, the owner had to surrender the weapon in order to get the case dropped, the vehicle returned and avoid a costly legal battle.
How much of this is true, remains to be seen, but it did give me pause.
If somebody has better information I would love to hear more about it, maybe someone with a better Google-Fu than myself could help?

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Originally Posted by bellavite1

Although not a resident, I do have family living in Denver and avoiding the area is not an option.
Back to the point:
I have read, in relation to the old "Denver assault weapon ban", of confiscations of 30 rounds magazines inside Denver County from non-Denver Co residents.
SUPPOSEDLY, the firearms were also confiscated, falling under the OLD assault weapon definition (a firearm with magazines that accepted more than 20 rounds), and the vehicle seized.
Although not being a resident was indeed to be considered affirmative defense against the charges, the owner had to surrender the weapon in order to get the case dropped, the vehicle returned and avoid a costly legal battle.
How much of this is true, remains to be seen, but it did give me pause.
If somebody has better information I would love to hear more about it, maybe someone with a better Google-Fu than myself could help?

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Originally Posted by 20X11

Denvers mag rules do not apply to persons " traveling through"...only to residents.

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Originally Posted by ChickNorris

Exactly. Unless you aim to misbehave....

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Originally Posted by bellavite1

If somebody has better information I would love to hear more about it

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I know this isn?t the better information you were asking about but I?m just going to toss out my two cents.

If you absolutely, positively feel you must arm yourself while in Denver but fear of having your shit confiscated or your vehicle impounded is a genuine concern for you then why not simply choose a firearm that is more socially acceptable in Denver and just be done with it?

In other words, rather than trying to interpret their bullshit laws and then jump through hoops doing silly things like modifying magazines or whatever, why not just take a decent handgun or if you insist on a long gun perhaps a nice lever action rifle or maybe a pump action shotgun?

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Originally Posted by ray1970

I know this isn?t the better information you were asking about but I?m just going to toss out my two cents.

If you absolutely, positively feel you must arm yourself while in Denver but fear of having your shit confiscated or your vehicle impounded is a genuine concern for you then why not simply choose a firearm that is more socially acceptable in Denver and just be done with it?

In other words, rather than trying to interpret their bullshit laws and then jump through hoops doing silly things like modifying magazines or whatever, why not just take a decent handgun or if you insist on a long gun perhaps a nice lever action rifle or maybe a pump action shotgun?

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Must travel through Denver Co to get to my rifle range.
Anyways, for those who may be wondering, acetone did it.
I am happy to report that Pmags are impervious to it.
The mag blocks, however, not so much...

Yay chemistry

No need to glue the floorplate in Denver from what I understand of the law. Mag block does the trick

The magic words once used, twice needed. NO Officer I Do Not Consent to a Search of My Vehicle.

If you really want to read all the views and points about the Colorado 15 round mag restriction, then I suggest reading all the filings made during the legal battle:

http://coloradoguncase.org/

Lots of good points, and how they were countered.
Also, this one document that was a brief to the Governor by the AG office had been brought to my attention:

http://coloradoguncase.org/AG-brief-PI.pdf

You have to make a point to read the notes.
The AG and the Governor were very sure they covered all the arguments and that the law left NO actual or perceived loopholes to be exploited as had happened before in other states (IE California).

Richard

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Originally Posted by APEXgunparts

If you really want to read all the views and points about the Colorado 15 round mag restriction, then I suggest reading all the filings made during the legal battle:

http://coloradoguncase.org/

Lots of good points, and how they were countered.
Also, this one document that was a brief to the Governor by the AG office had been brought to my attention:

http://coloradoguncase.org/AG-brief-PI.pdf

You have to make a point to read the notes.
The AG and the Governor were very sure they covered all the arguments and that the law left NO actual or perceived loopholes to be exploited as had happened before in other states (IE California).

Richard

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Exactly. In there it says that just because the floor plate is removable doesn't mean it's designed to be readily convertible. The mag block on its own is designed solely to limit capacity so I think it would be fine.

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Originally Posted by Will1776

No need to glue the floorplate in Denver from what I understand of the law. Mag block does the trick

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The AG-brief that APEX posted seems to answer the question.

Page 28-30 of the Brief

(3) “Designed to be readily converted”
Thus, the entire phrase “designed to be readily converted” means a magazine
that, judged by its objective features, reveals that it is typically used in a way that
is quickly, easily, and efficiently changed from accepting 15 rounds or fewer to more
than 15 rounds. Applied to specific ammunition magazines, this legal standard
easily distinguishes between those that are prohibited and those that are lawful:
• Telescoping Magazine (see Ex. C): An expandable magazine that with
the depression of a single tab, telescopes to a larger-capacity configuration
would be a “large capacity magazine” if the magazine accepted more than
15 rounds of ammunition in its telescoped state.8
• 20-Round AR-15 Magazine with Removable Limiter (see Ex. E): A
20-round magazine with a removable limiter that temporarily prevents it
from accepting more than 15 rounds is a “large capacity magazine.” This
is because the only reason to remove the limiter would be to increase the
capacity of the magazine. Judged objectively, a removable limiter is
designed to enable the magazine to be readily converted from a 15-round
to a 20-round configuration.
• 30-Round AR-15 Magazine with Permanently-Affixed Limiter (see
Ex. F): A similar limiter that has been welded or epoxied to the frame of
the 30-round magazine such that the limiter cannot be removed is not a
“large capacity magazine.” Not only is this magazine not “designed to be
readily converted to accept more than 15 rounds of ammunition”; it has
been “permanently altered” to comply with HB 1224.
• Standard Box Magazine with Removable Baseplate (see Ex. G): The
type of magazine that Plaintiffs most fear would be rendered illegal by HB
1224 is a standard magazine with a removable base plate that accepts 15
or fewer rounds. These types of magazines are not large capacity
magazines. The baseplates themselves do not enable the magazines to be
expanded, and they serve functions aside from expansion—notably, they
allow the magazine to be cleaned and repaired. To actually convert them
to higher capacity, one must purchase additional equipment or
permanently alter their operation mechanically. Unless so altered, they
are not prohibited.
• Magazine coupler (see Ex. H): A coupler that physically attaches two
magazines together (an effect that could be accomplished just as easily
with a few inches of duct tape), and “allows the user to attach two
magazines together for more efficient speed reloads,” would not create a
single large-capacity magazine. Because the second magazine must be
inserted into the firearm separately—and only after the first magazine
has been exhausted—this accessory does not convert two complying
magazines into one non-compliant magazine.

But my original question...

"Is buying parts and cutting magazines down to limit capacity legal as an individual."

I cannot find an answer in the briefs/lawsuits.


Now if APEX would sell me some parts to make 15 rounders.... :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by APEXgunparts

You have to make a point to read the notes.
The AG and the Governor were very sure they covered all the arguments and that the law left NO actual or perceived loopholes to be exploited as had happened before in other states (IE California).

Richard

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Yes.

The Governor is not aware of a magazine currently in production that telescopes
from a less-than-15-round configuration to a greater-than-15-round configuration.
HB 1224, however, was written to ensure that future innovations in the market
could not easily circumvent the 15-round limit on ammunition magazines. See
Exotic Coins, Inc. v. Beacom, 699 P.2d 930, 945 (Colo. 1985) (explaining that
although statute must define criminal offense with sufficient definiteness to give
fair warning of prohibited conduct, it must also be general enough to address
problem under varied circumstances and during changing times). Experience in
other states has shown that some retailers and purchasers will try to exploit any
actual or perceived loophole in such regulations. See Ex. D (San Francisco City
Attorney press release announcing lawsuit against importers of large-capacity
magazine “repair” kits).

It points to : https://www.sfcityattorney.org/wp-co.../Complaint.pdf



But the lawsuit is specifically about "large capacity" parts kits to essentially make large capacity magazine.

To be clear. I was asking the opposite. Parts to build 15 or less magazines.

Not all weapons have 15 round or less mags available and the only way to get them is:
1. Buy ones already converted to reduced rounds.
2. If legal, buy parts and modify them personally to less than 15 rounds.

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Originally Posted by DDT951

The AG-brief that APEX posted seems to answer the question.

Page 28-30 of the Brief

(3) “Designed to be readily converted”
Thus, the entire phrase “designed to be readily converted” means a magazine
that, judged by its objective features, reveals that it is typically used in a way that
is quickly, easily, and efficiently changed from accepting 15 rounds or fewer to more
than 15 rounds. Applied to specific ammunition magazines, this legal standard
easily distinguishes between those that are prohibited and those that are lawful:
• Telescoping Magazine (see Ex. C): An expandable magazine that with
the depression of a single tab, telescopes to a larger-capacity configuration
would be a “large capacity magazine” if the magazine accepted more than
15 rounds of ammunition in its telescoped state.8
• 20-Round AR-15 Magazine with Removable Limiter (see Ex. E): A
20-round magazine with a removable limiter that temporarily prevents it
from accepting more than 15 rounds is a “large capacity magazine.” This
is because the only reason to remove the limiter would be to increase the
capacity of the magazine. Judged objectively, a removable limiter is
designed to enable the magazine to be readily converted from a 15-round
to a 20-round configuration.
• 30-Round AR-15 Magazine with Permanently-Affixed Limiter (see
Ex. F): A similar limiter that has been welded or epoxied to the frame of
the 30-round magazine such that the limiter cannot be removed is not a
“large capacity magazine.” Not only is this magazine not “designed to be
readily converted to accept more than 15 rounds of ammunition”; it has
been “permanently altered” to comply with HB 1224.
• Standard Box Magazine with Removable Baseplate (see Ex. G): The
type of magazine that Plaintiffs most fear would be rendered illegal by HB
1224 is a standard magazine with a removable base plate that accepts 15
or fewer rounds. These types of magazines are not large capacity
magazines. The baseplates themselves do not enable the magazines to be
expanded, and they serve functions aside from expansion—notably, they
allow the magazine to be cleaned and repaired. To actually convert them
to higher capacity, one must purchase additional equipment or
permanently alter their operation mechanically. Unless so altered, they
are not prohibited.
• Magazine coupler (see Ex. H): A coupler that physically attaches two
magazines together (an effect that could be accomplished just as easily
with a few inches of duct tape), and “allows the user to attach two
magazines together for more efficient speed reloads,” would not create a
single large-capacity magazine. Because the second magazine must be
inserted into the firearm separately—and only after the first magazine
has been exhausted—this accessory does not convert two complying
magazines into one non-compliant magazine.

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Is that saying that just the block is good enough, but epoxy or whatever would help further? It says "not only is this magazine not designed to be....."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DDT951

But my original question...

"Is buying parts and cutting magazines down to limit capacity legal as an individual."

I cannot find an answer in the briefs/lawsuits.


Now if APEX would sell me some parts to make 15 rounders.... :)

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Had you not glossed over post 35 from 4 months ago that was answered for you with a link. Keep your mags, shove these limiters in them and call it good. Not to hard to figure out.
https://www.magazineblocks.com/magento/

All my mags only hold 15 rounds...and 6 Kleenex, a striker, and a small fishing kit. You guys don't know about "survival" mags.

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Originally Posted by Great-Kazoo

Had you not glossed over post 35 from 4 months ago that was answered for you with a link. Keep your mags, shove these limiters in them and call it good. Not to hard to figure out.
https://www.magazineblocks.com/magento/

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Keep the mags is not the question. If I have pre-July 13 mags then leave them as is.

From the original post...

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Originally Posted by DDT951

But I dont want to modify my pre '13 mags to lower capacity. I want "new" limited mags but not all weapons can they be purchased for. As an example, try finding 15 round [or less] Sterling mags. I think the only way to get them is to cut them down or block them. But on obscure mags, find pre-altered mags is hard.
[/FONT][/SIZE]

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Maybe it has been glossed over, but the question has been how to legally make 15 round mags when they aren't available pre-made.

There is a time when you either have post July '13 parts that could be assembled into high capacity, you have have post July '13 high capacity mags, but then they are modified to 15 round. There is an "in between time" where they are post-July 13 parts/mags and when modified down to the limit.

It is possible to buy pre-blocked 15 rounders, but not every mag is available that way or some places dont want to take responsibility and make reduced count mags for obscure mags. Many places also wont ship "parts kits" (I suspect because of the SF letter / lawsuit) to make reduced capacity mags (which makes finding sources of obscure mags hard).

If I was just asking about AR mags, it is easy., Google-foo will pull up modified AR mags. Some are done better than others.