The Ban Stands

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Originally Posted by HBARleatherneck

so, 2000 thousand cases. which is clearly 2000 too many. what does that have to do with letting gays in? we know you have gay relatives, Im sure rucker is one of them.

BSA is 102 years old, it has 2.7 million youth members 1 million adult members, and there have been 110 million members total. 2000 cases of abuse is pretty low.

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There goes that empty can........

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Originally Posted by HBARleatherneck

so, 2000 thousand cases. which is clearly 2000 too many. what does that have to do with letting gays in? we know you have gay relatives, Im sure rucker is one of them.

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Ouch. Did you know that one third of the current scout volunteers are assumed to have sex with men, or be willing to in the right circumstances? How can we trust them with boys?

delete

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Originally Posted by HBARleatherneck

so, you have an actual source for that? or you pulled it out of your ass?

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FAQ from the BSA website:

http://www.scouting.org/FAQ/Parent.aspx

"
Can women be Boy Scout leaders?

Yes. Every leadership position is open to women. In fact, more than one-third of Scout volunteers are women."

Obviously, none of those women are lesbians. And if putting stuff in your ass is against the BSA rules, pulling it out must be against the rules, too.

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Originally Posted by Rucker61

FAQ from the BSA website:

http://www.scouting.org/FAQ/Parent.aspx

"
Can women be Boy Scout leaders?

Yes. Every leadership position is open to women. In fact, more than one-third of Scout volunteers are women."

Obviously, none of those women are lesbians. And if putting stuff in your ass is against the BSA rules, pulling it out must be against the rules, too.

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http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/f...tuff/Joker.gif

The old switcheroo

Man, I hate getting to the party late. I've only read the first 10 or so posts in this thread and already everything I planned to say has been expressed.

[ETA: wow, after the first 10 posts of this thread things really changed]

"Intolerance" isn't the domain of the hetero community, it's very evident across the board (not this "board"). You can't say "We have the right to choose" or "We have the right to decide for ourselves" while denying that same freedom to others.

If the gay community doesn't appreciate this decision, they are free to start their own organization that teaches the skills and values of the Boy Scouts of America.

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Originally Posted by theGinsue

Man, I hate getting to the party late. I've only read the first 10 or so posts in this thread and already everything I planned to say has been expressed.

"Intolerance" isn't the domain of the hetero community, it's very evident across the board (not this "board"). You can't say "We have the right to choose" or "We have the right to decide for ourselves" while denying that same freedom to others.

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I don't recall any gay organizations denying membership to straights. Which ones do you know of?

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If the gay community doesn't appreciate this decision, they are free to start their own organization that teaches the skills and values of the Boy Scouts of America.

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Again, why is separation the answer? What is wrong with gay kids that they can't learn all of the good things that scouts teach straight kids? Gay kids go to church with straight kids. Gay kids go to school with straight kids. Gay kids go to war with straight kids. If scouts is the best thing for kids, let'em all learn.

That's their decision to make. They made it. Move on. "Tolerate" their choice.

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Originally Posted by 00tec

That's their decision to make. They made it. Move on. "Tolerate" their choice.

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You can't say "Move On" on this forum.

This is what they do, push it and push it.
You will NOT change any minds here. Why does it bother you so that others have a differing opinion?
Why cant you just go about your life. Would you like us to change the site to accommodate you?
Please keep your kids from experiencing Scouts because of the Homophobe environment you perceive. Accuse other of being pedophiles to fit your narrative, stay intolerant of others and teach your children any way and anything you want. Im tired of dealing with people like you, the intolerant hypocrite who demands the world change for them.
Find the organizations you want to join and join them. You will not have me crying about what they do. You dont seem to want to make any friends here, just rile up the crowd and and spew intolerance then cry we are the ones who wont tolerate differences! It is usually the other way around. Dont get butt hurt when you are the minority here.

YES, PLEASE MOVE ON.

Joins in MAY and is already determing the rules!! To funny!
This a hard way to boost your post count!

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Originally Posted by AlohaShooter

I don't see why the homosexual and atheist activitists don't just create a Gay and Atheist Youth organization of their own instead of continually harassing the BSA -- except that I believe those activists are more interested in legitimizing and promoting their own lifestyles and beliefs than in actually helping kids.

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+1 this

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Originally Posted by Rucker61

Again, why is separation the answer? What is wrong with gay kids that they can't learn all of the good things that scouts teach straight kids? Gay kids go to church with straight kids. Gay kids go to school with straight kids. If scouts is the best thing for kids, let'em all learn.

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I'll answer that by reversing the question. Why is inclusion the answer? we're you ever a Scout? The BSA was founded on certain specific values - this is as much a part of what Scouting teaches as how to camp or whittle a scarf slide or use a compass. Homosexually is not compatible with those values. It's just that simple. If the gay community likes everything about the BSA EXCEPT those values then they don't really like what the BSA is about. Their desire to "join" is actually a desire to CHANGE the BSA. Again, there is nothing stopping the gay community from creating their own organization similar to the BSA in all regards aside from the values they teach.

Say I'm a Protestant. As such, I don't belong in a Catholic church because I don't share their same values. This "gays should be allowed in the BSA is the same as if I insisted the the Catholic church allow my to be a member on the fact that we both just want to learn more about God. The logic doesn't follow.

Or, something closer to home, let's say an anti-2A member wanted to join this site. They don't share our values but claim to want to know more about guns (with an ulterior motive; of course). Should they be allowed to be a member of our site? Should they be allowed to come in here in increasing numbers as they continue to run off pro-2A members because of their anti comments? I say HELL NO!

QUOTE=Rucker61;545742]Gay kids go to war with straight kids.[/quote]
That's another decision I disagree with!

Gay guys don't think straight...[ROFL1]

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Originally Posted by TEAMRICO

You will NOT change any minds here.

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I'm not worried about that.

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Why does it bother you so that others have a differing opinion?

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Why does it bother you so that others have a differing opinion?

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Why cant you just go about your life. Would you like us to change the site to accommodate you?

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No thanks, not necessary, or even requested. Where did that come from?

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Please keep your kids from experiencing Scouts because of the Homophobe environment you perceive.

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What part of "No gays allowed" isn't homophobic? What other rationale could there be?

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Accuse other of being pedophiles to fit your narrative,

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I don't believe I've called anyone a pedophile, other than the pedophiles.

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stay intolerant of others and teach your children any way and anything you want.

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If I was intolerant of other people, would I still be here?

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Im tired of dealing with people like you, the intolerant hypocrite who demands the world change for them.

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Yes, like those intolerant hypocrites who demanded that women and minorities be allowed to vote, or that the races can intermingle, or that minorities should be allowed to go to the good schools with the white kids. Damn those world changers.

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Find the organizations you want to join and join them.

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Like the Colorado AR-15 Shooter's Club? That organization? I'm here. And learning lots.

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You will not have me crying about what they do. You dont seem to want to make any friends here, just rile up the crowd and and spew intolerance then cry we are the ones who wont tolerate differences! It is usually the other way around. Dont get butt hurt when you are the minority here.

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I've been the minority from day 1. I knew that coming in, and I have no problem with it. Is taking a stand against intolerance considered intolerance? If so, then what about a stand of intolerance against intolerance of intolerance?

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YES, PLEASE MOVE ON.

Joins in MAY and is already determing the rules!! Too funny!
This a hard way to boost your post count!

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What rules have I asked to change? And post counts don't concern me, the same way that trophy animals don't.

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Originally Posted by theGinsue

Or, something closer to home, let's say an anti-2A member wanted to join this site. They don't share our values but claim to want to know more about guns (with an ulterior motive; of course). Should they be allowed to be a member of our site? Should they be allowed to come in here in increasing numbers as they continue to run off pro-2A members because of their anti comments? I say HELL NO!

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time for a mod vote on a certain someone?[Tooth]


I will +1 what Ginsue has said and Alohashooter has said.
It's their organization, their rules. don't like em...too bad, go cry about it while watching an episode of will and grace or queer eye for the straight guy....

If you don't like the decision, the great part about America is that you can go start your own organization and let in whoever you like. I suggest you start your own website...you can call it The Gay Scouts of America.

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Originally Posted by theGinsue

+1 this




I'll answer that by reversing the question. Why is inclusion the answer? we're you ever a Scout? The BSA was founded on certain specific values - this is as much a part of what Scouting teaches as how to camp or whittle a scarf slide or use a compass. Homosexually is not compatible with those values. It's just that simple.

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http://www.scouting.org/

Show us which value is incompatible with being a gay kid.

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Or, something closer to home, let's say an anti-2A member wanted to join this site. They don't share our values but claim to want to know more about guns (with an ulterior motive; of course). Should they be allowed to be a member of our site? Should they be allowed to come in here in increasing numbers as they continue to run off pro-2A members because of their anti comments? I say HELL NO!

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Better change the rules, then, because right now that's allowed.

QUOTE=Rucker61;545742]Gay kids go to war with straight kids.[/quote]

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That's another decision I disagree with!

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Didn't want that comment to get lost. What else do you want to exclude gay kids from?

Here's a question for you: should Democrats be allowed to be scout leaders?

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Originally Posted by Ronin13

It comes down to what kind of stranger you want teaching life lessons and skills to your children? If you're gay then it's all good right? But if you're not gay do you really trust a gay person to NOT spout their pro-gay rhetoric to impressionable kids? I don't want my kids raised by Elton John and Ellen DeGeneris, I want to raise them on my terms with my morals and lessons, not some "See? We do it all the time, it's okay to shove your agenda and beliefs on people regardless of if they want it or not." THAT is what it all boils down to, it's not tolerance or acceptance, it's about: "Stop shoving that shit down my throat, whether it's pro-gay, pro-Muslim, or freaking pro-My Little Pony, if I want to know more about it or support it, I'll come to you, don't come seek me out!" /rant

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Yay! Ronin, sometimes you make me happy

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Originally Posted by HBARleantherneck

Parents should be much more involved in their childrens lives. They should KNOW who is watching, interacting, influencing their kids. I know most people dont now. Thats why they have public school, daycare, big boys, big sisters, Scouting, television, cable, internet. Whatever people can do, to NOT raise their own kids.

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YES. THIS PISSES ME OFF SO MUCH! PARENTS NEED TO DO THEIR JOBS!

Holy smokes... I don't think butthurt is an appropriate word, considering the topic, but it's still darned funny! [ROFL1]

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Originally Posted by Rucker61

Yes, like those intolerant hypocrites who demanded that women and minorities be allowed to vote, or that the races can intermingle, or that minorities should be allowed to go to the good schools with the white kids. Damn those world changers.

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What you identify here is physical characteristics that one is born with and can not be changed.

I've read the research on how homosexuality is mentally defined at birth and is not "learned" (nature vs nurture argument). Perhaps that is true, but it isn't an unchangeable physical characteristic like gender (okay, gender can be changed but there is still the issue of chromosomes... XX, XY, OR XXY.) or race. Homosexuality is defined as much by BEHAVIOR as It is a mental proclivity. We can think & reason and as such, we can make a choice to behave one way or the other. In this way it doesn't equate to gender nor race.

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Originally Posted by Rucker61

Better change the rules, then, because right now that's allowed.

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Says who? I guarantee that if any member of the staff had reason to believe a member was not pro-2A, that person would no longer be a member. It's written in the site rules:

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vi. Managers/mods can restrict access to the site, shoot, whatever for any reason at any time

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I have gay friends; many. I like them as individuals, but they know my feelings on their lifestyle. Because of their homosexuality, whether they are sexually active or not, I exclude them from a great part of my life. It's my choice as a private individual, just as the BSA 's choice is their own as a private organization. There are those who would say "your loss" to these decisions, but those who've made the choice don't perceive any loss.

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Originally Posted by theGinsue

What you identify here is physical characteristics that one is born with and can not be changed.

I've read the research on how homosexuality is mentally defined at birth and is not "learned" (nature vs nurture argument). Perhaps that is true, but it isn't an unchangeable physical characteristic like gender (okay, gender can be changed but there is still the issue of chromosomes... XX, XY, OR XXY.) or race.

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Ah, actual research, in a civil tone. Refreshing and welcome. I'd like to see more of the research on how it's not a physical characteristic yet is fully defined mentally at birth. The studies I've seen indicate that there is no one accepted single cause, and many factors influence homosexuality, including genetic, hormonal and environmental influences. Given that, I'd opine that the physical characteristic of homosexuality is unchangeable.

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Homosexuality is defined as much by BEHAVIOR as It is a mental proclivity.

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Herein lies the quandary. Who is gay: someone who considers themselves gay but only acts in heterosexual relationships, like those in heterosexual marriages, or those who consider themselves completely straight, like dominant prisoners who force other men into homosexual acts?

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We can think & reason and as such, we can make a choice to behave one way or the other. In this way it doesn't equate to gender nor race.

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You act to fulfill heterosexual urges, presumably, because you are straight and desire heterosexual physical sex. How is a gay person doing something similar so disturbing? Would you prefer that they live a life of celibacy or participate in a act they have no desire to?

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Says who? I guarantee that if any member of the staff had reason to believe a member was not pro-2A, that person would no longer be a member. It's written in the site rules:

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I stand corrected; in fact, I went back to confirm earlier and saw that I had missed that clause. According to those rules, you can kick anyone out for any reason at all. At any time, without warning.

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I have gay friends; many. I like them as individuals, but they know my feelings on their lifestyle. Because of their homosexuality, whether they are sexually active or not, I exclude them from a great part of my life. It's my choice as a private individual, just as the BSA 's choice is their own as a private organization. There are those who would say "your loss" to these decisions, but those who've made the choice don't perceive any loss.

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And that's the great pity here.

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Originally Posted by Rucker61

Ah, actual research, in a civil tone. Refreshing and welcome. I'd like to see more of the research on how it's not a physical characteristic yet is fully defined mentally at birth. The studies I've seen indicate that there is no one accepted single cause, and many factors influence homosexuality, including genetic, hormonal and environmental influences. Given that, I'd opine that the physical characteristic of homosexuality is unchangeable.

I never said I agreed with these studies. I contend that homosexuality, like heterosexuality, is a choice (nurture camp)

Please, identify for me what that unchangeable physical characteristics are as I've never seen nor heard of them. Now, I don't mean behavioral physical characteristics such as a flamboyant gay man sashaying, but something that is a part of their body.

Herein lies the quandary. Who is gay: someone who considers themselves gay but only acts in heterosexual relationships, like those in heterosexual marriages, or those who consider themselves completely straight, like dominant prisoners who force other men into homosexual acts?

I'm fairly certain that in the gay community, if a person professed being gay, but performed hetero behavior, the community would classify him as straight. Of course, bi is just someone who refused to make a choice.


You act to fulfill heterosexual urges, presumably, because you are straight and desire heterosexual physical sex. How is a gay person doing something similar so disturbing? Would you prefer that they live a life of celibacy or participate in a act they have no desire to?

No, but it doesn't mean they I want to be associated with it any more than the BSA wants to be. I know gays (this is usually the lesbians) that don't want to be associated with straights. I respect their choice as they respect mine & we give each other the space.

I stand corrected; in fact, I went back to confirm earlier and saw that I had missed that clause. According to those rules, you can kick anyone out for any reason at all. At any time, without warning.

Yep, it's the catch all.

And that's the great pity here.

I disagree. I'd have no problem going shooting with a gay person (I already mentioned I do have gay friends), but I won't be going out for drinks with that same person afterwards.

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Originally Posted by sniper7

time for a mod vote on a certain someone?[Tooth]

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Not from me. He is entitled to his beliefs, but he has to know (and already stated as such) that he'll have few on this site who agree with him.

ETA: I really have nothing further to add and don't wish to prolong this thread any more myself. To be honest, I just don't care to discuss it further as I've said my piece.

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Originally Posted by theGinsue

I disagree.

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I think we've reached a civil accomodation.