So if there's something I learned....

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Originally Posted by Tim K

Next time you're out, shoot some groups where you stand up after every shot. When groups shot that way are the same size as groups shot without breaking position, you're done.

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Originally Posted by C Ward

Groups are for zeroing and load development . After that use the dot drill's , it is way more effective when working on shot placement because you shoot a new spot every time and have to move to a different aiming point . It is also more relevant because you only get one shot to make it right .

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Originally Posted by C Ward

Every time you change targets you should rebuild your position no mater how small the change because you need to adjust the natural point of aim . If you can consistently put your shot on a 1 inch dot at 100 your gonna be GTG then move to 1/2 inch dots . A side effect will be your group size shrinking when checking zero . Doesn't make sense to me to practice shooting groups , especially at 100 , when the end goal is to place 1 shot on target at distance in field conditions . Group shooting is all well and good during load development but after that the ammo is better spent elsewhere working on precision instead of testing the accuracy of the rifle .

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Originally Posted by Madusa

I thought precisions was consistency with all mechanical and physical, accuracy was putting the bullet on the spot. So shooting groups improves precision and the dot test improves accuracy? right.

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I completely see where you guys are going with this. [Beer]

I noticed a lot of things when I was my breaking position (Not standing up, but hands off the rifle and kneeling behind the rifle) behind the rifle. I also placed targets from 100 out to 600 yards to practice and get that one shot mentality shot going on.... also going as far as nailing my shots where I wanted them on the piece of steel and seeing it hit where I wanted it to hit, but when I do this I mainly working on my parallax as well. I tried going back and forth without adjusting (given at the time it was clear enough) and saw my 100 yard group opened up a weee bit consistently low.. so that required me to adjust (refine the rifle to me) my cheek rest position a little bit lower... and so far I'm comfortable with it as I'm expecting to change things around sooner or later after trouble shooting and experimenting [panic]

I am a lot more aware of how I'm pulling the trigger. Given that I know I am not muscling the rifle in anyway gives me the opportunity to think of other things rather than how I feel behind the rifle.

My first shot's lately haven't been on the 100 yard target, but out to 200 and 300 yards (so far) on a steel plate and recording that first hit. I'll usually shoot a group or two after shooting as far as 600 yards and then straight back in to a 100 yard for a 5 shot group.

I'm trying pretty hard not to over think things when I'm behind my rifle... basically trying to make it feel a little more natural by making my shooting some what more comfortable to me and repetitive/consistent sorta speak.

I laugh every time after I pull the trigger and feel the wall of the trigger system.... "Ooops... that went a little to the right" [ROFL1]

Yeah , had precision and accuracy reversed from the accepted definitions . I try to work on 1 or 2 things per practice session so you can see what is actually working without having to sort through too much stuff .

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Originally Posted by C Ward

Yeah , had precision and accuracy reversed from the accepted definitions . I try to work on 1 or 2 things per practice session so you can see what is actually working without having to sort through too much stuff .

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Man... My first 20-30 minutes out there (after Tim K's help) I was screwing it up. I was rushing things, almost went back to forcing/muscling the rifle around again... yeah, you can imagine what was going through my mind. I literally had to break complete contact with the rifle (sat on my cooler) to let things soak in and to rethink what the heck I was doing out here.
I want it to be like driving my own car (something I could relate to). I get in and everything (mirrors, chair, steering wheel, etc..) is where its at... not needing to readjust anything when I twist that key.... [Coffee]

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Originally Posted by Hoser

Only one way to fix that. First Sundays in Raton...

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Originally Posted by Tim K

Next month at Raton is the last match of the year. Burn that day of vacation!

I learned more about shooting in the wind in one match down there than in any 10 PD matches. The targets are much larger and much farther. It's the perfect learning environment for wind shooting.

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I really want to try this now.... questions... I should probably look this up myself, but I figured hearing it from you guys would be the best and posting it up here would bring others to think about trying this match out themselves if they haven't tried it out. I will ask one question at a time as we go [Coffee]

How many rounds do i need to bring?

The purpose of Mike's visit was to develop a basic prone position that is repeatable and gets good accuracy from the rifle. The goal was to be able to plop down behind the gun and put a shot into some acceptable zone of accuracy each and every time. The size of the zone (say 1/2 moa) is determined by shooting traditional groups to see the rifle's capabilities. This shooting can be done my Mike or by some other skilled shooter.

I'm advocating shooting a few groups where Mike stands completely up after every shot. Shoot one, stand up. Shoot another, stand up, etc. When his groups shooting this way are equal in size to the groups shot without breaking position, it's reasonable to assume he has achieved his goal of a good basic prone position.

All this is to get to the point of learning to shoot at distance and in the wind. You learn nothing shooting in the wind if you are not confident that the bullet went where you were aiming. If there is much variability in your position, a miss or a hit will teach you nothing about shooting in the wind. So, say you missed 2 moa to the right. If you're a 2 moa shooter, you don't know if it was wind or you or some combination of the two. If you're a 1/2 moa shooter, that shot will teach you something about the wind.

The group shooting (standing up after every shot) is simply a way to measure progress and know when it makes sense to burn up ammo shooting at distance and in the wind. It could be done shooting at individual dots if that's what you gotta do, but that just makes it harder to measure progress. If you're standing after each shot, it's at least as difficult as shooting the dot drill.

Once the position has been developed and committed to muscle and mental memory, I'm not an advocate of group shooting. It might be smart to shoot one periodically just to make sure nothing has changed, but as practice it's essentially useless.

You need 60 rounds. More if you want to shoot on the practice range beforehand.

I completely understand and will do. [Beer]

I need to do this.. My muscle memory (especially) on my whole left arm needs being tweeked. I have a bad tendency of muscling that side up with my shoulder pointing straight up.
I've noticed too that I catch my neck still holding my head up still which I think may have threw me off on my parallax at times.
Another thing I caught that was happening was every time I broke away from the rifle. I was catching myself not getting the same feel when I load the rifle causing me to break off the rifle again... the bipod is probably slipping on the dirt... still trying to figure that out too.
My groups are pretty consistent so far keeping it under an moa and seeing the progress when I'm stretching it out a little out there. I totally know what this means too.... MORE DRY FIRING! [Beer]

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Originally Posted by Tim K

You need 60 rounds. More if you want to shoot on the practice range beforehand.

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Copy that! [Beer]

Another question will come up.... well....

What else would I need/would you suggest to bring and load in my pack to get through this match?

Gun, bipod, ammo, sling, range finder or binoculars, shooting sticks (no tripods allowed) if you have them, rear bag and lunch.

You can set the gun up at the house . Flop down prone behind the rifle with your eye's closed . Build your position until your comfortable then open your eye's . There should be no issues with eye relief or scope shadow , if there is adjust the cheek piece height and eye relief until its right . Your position should be comfortable enough to be in for extended periods of time , if your not comfortable your not going to shoot well .

To get the bipod loaded build your position and then without moving the gun lift your body and roll forward into the gun about 1/2 inch or so . You don't need a huge amount of pressure on the legs just enough so the rifle recoils in a straight line and returns on target . NPA plays a big part in this , if you NPA is off the rifle won't recoil straight . This is important because its critical to see where the bullet went and the shooter has the best seat in the house to see this .

Parallax issues will be minimized with the rifle set up properly because you will have consistent cheek weld which puts your eye in the same place every time .

Pretty much all you'll need for Raton is the stuff you bring to the PD match , the new guy's always get cut some slack and if you need to borrow something the guy's on your squad will loan it to you . Pretty much all the questions and info can be found at the threads for the Sporting Rifle Match on here and SH , there are links to the match website in both threads .