so who taught him the rules to carry?

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Originally Posted by Irving

If I'm walking with my wife, and we get surrounded by say, 5 guys, who say they are going to do something, there is pretty much no way I'm going to be able to prevent them from doing whatever they want. In that situation, I have to imagine that I'd enter a state of duress pretty quickly. At what point is a verbal threat from someone enough to engage? If some random dude says something, and only says something, that isn't enough reason to engage in my opinion. If it's 5 dudes, that's an entirely different story. Thoughts?

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Engagement for me, is the use of verbal Judo. I would be trying to create distance or at least cut down angles of exposure. The use of lethal force requires you to be in fear for your life or of grave bodily harm. In my usage, the "you" applies to my family first and me second, other innocent life third.

There is no textbook answer, but worth consideration, even if not spelled out in detail on a forum. :)

Warning shots are to be fired center of mass, until the threat has been neutralized. Use of a weapon to deter someone from causing you harm, after they have expressed that intent, does not necessarily mean discharging the weapon. Like Bailey said, use of force is a rapidly changing dynamic situation. Personally, my weapon never leaves the holster unless I am prepared to use it to defend myself, but unlike the sword of a samurai, there is no obligation to draw blood before I reholster my weapon, if the threat is ended and the situation de-escalated.

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Originally Posted by Irving

If I'm walking with my wife, and we get surrounded by say, 5 guys, who say they are going to do something, there is pretty much no way I'm going to be able to prevent them from doing whatever they want. In that situation, I have to imagine that I'd enter a state of duress pretty quickly. At what point is a verbal threat from someone enough to engage? If some random dude says something, and only says something, that isn't enough reason to engage in my opinion. If it's 5 dudes, that's an entirely different story. Thoughts?

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In my CCW class, it was presented that it's all about the situation. You and your wife, surrounded by 5 guys creates a situation where fear of your and your wife's life is reasonable. Now, if you and 5 buddies walk by some girl getting attacked, it's not reasonable to think you need to use your gun to overpower 1 guy when there's 5 of you. My understanding is if you're out-numbered, you're generally going to be ok to pull the firearm if it becomes necessary. At which point is "necessary" is up to your own discretion.

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Originally Posted by davsel

I am certain you are aware of multiple reasons why you may want to have a gun in your hand, at the ready, and may not pull the trigger.
Cops do this all the time. It is not a matter of threatening, it is a matter of readiness.
Hesitation, or waiting until you've determined you are going to shoot before drawing, may get you killed.

If looking down the barrel does not change a thug's mind, it's time to shoot. They usually understand the message and run.

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Good point, but in my context use can mean not firing the gun... I should have clarified. If I draw, there is the intent to pull the trigger, however, as the situation unfolds, I may deem it to be unnecessary to fire. At the ready is still considered a use. But again, the point remains, warning shots are more dangerous than engaging a target- for everyone around as well as your own freedom.

I would give a warning shot to a bear in the woods. Depending on the situation.

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Originally Posted by Irving

I would give a warning shot to a bear in the woods. Depending on the situation.

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I have gone this to motivate a bear to get out of our campsite(1 round, into the ground), more to make noise than anything else, as yelling did nothing. Urban predators do not get the courtesy of a warning beyond me asking/telling them to back off/leave me alone.

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Originally Posted by TFOGGER

Warning shots are to be fired center of mass, until the threat has been neutralized. Use of a weapon to deter someone from causing you harm, after they have expressed that intent, does not necessarily mean discharging the weapon. Like Bailey said, use of force is a rapidly changing dynamic situation. Personally, my weapon never leaves the holster unless I am prepared to use it to defend myself, but unlike the sword of a samurai, there is no obligation to draw blood before I reholster my weapon, if the threat is ended and the situation de-escalated.

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+1
well said..
most courts would agree a group of 5 people some of which with weapons (baseball bat is a weapon) after a suitable about of movement, yelling, and attempted avoidance (varies check stand your ground law) you are allowed if in fear for life and limb to neutralize the threat. this could mean drawing your firearm and not pointing it, or if you draw and they escalate, do what is required.
a very tough situation, that changes quickly, and its very easy to come up with all sorts of plans after a month sitting at your desk with perfect information, in a dark location with less than perfect information you make judgments based on what you know.

The presence of weapons changes everything and makes it a no brainer.

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Originally Posted by mcantar18c

Read: "I'd much rather let a potentially violent, deranged person with obvious disregard for the law, who now knows where I live, know there are firearms and maybe other cool things he can get a lot of money for on the street in the house and then send him on his merry way with a potential grudge against me."

That could be an invitation for future problems for you, and is likely a guarantee of future problems for somebody else down the road.

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Well, if that's the way you read what I was saying you have a comprehension problem. Or you're a fool. Or you're looking to go to jail. Maybe you watch too many movies. And frankly, I don't care what that person does "down the road" as long as he leaves me alone. I spent 15 years putting away people who could "potentially" have a grudge against me. Should I have killed them all, too?

I have no problem now, and I never have had a problem, pointing my gun at people and threatening to shoot them, or pulling the trigger, if the circumstances warranted that. Threatening to shoot and threatening to kill are two different things. Just because someone is ATTEMPTING to make an unlawful entry into my home doesn't mean they'll be successful and doesn't mean they're some violent, deranged criminal. It also doesn't mean I'm justified in shooting them at that point. Sometimes they're just drunk and stupid...we've seen that story in the news a few times in the past few years. Sometimes they're disoriented for other reasons. And I will stand by my statement that I'd rather not shoot if it's not necessary. Even under the best of circumstances that opens a can of worms I'd rather keep shut.

If you wanted to play your imaginative scenario out further what if you did shoot the guy? Maybe now you've pissed off his gang buddies and they all come back after you since they now know where you live. You used the word "potential" a couple of times in your response. Potentially, a million things could happen whether the trigger is pulled or not.

If you want to always pull the trigger before you have to, knock yourself out. I, on the other hand, know better than to assume that's always the best course of action.

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Originally Posted by tim-adams

from my wife(the attorney) : pointing a weapon (loaded or unloading) at a person in CO is Assault with a deadly weapon. never point a weapon until its go time.
drawing the weapon and not pointing it, I am less clear on, could be considered brandishing a firearm, could be nothing.

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If I'm not mistaken, pointing a firearm at someone is NOT assault with a deadly weapon (because no such law exists in Colorado, if you assault someone with a deadly weapon in Colorado, it ranges from first to third degree assault depending upon the injury sustained). I would probably fall under the felony menacing statute. As far as drawing a firearm and not pointing it, it could also fall in the felony menacing category. There is no brandishing law on the books in Colorado. The only time that pointing a firearm at someone is considered assault is if it is pointed at a peace officer in the state of Colorado.

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Originally Posted by tim-adams

I think Menacing is just pulling it, pointing it is AWDW (fear for thier life)..

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Menacing is written like this in the Colorado Revised Statutes

18-3-206. Menacing



(1) A person commits the crime of menacing if, by any threat or physical action, he or she knowingly places or attempts to place another person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury. Menacing is a class 3 misdemeanor, but, it is a class 5 felony if committed:

(a) By the use of a deadly weapon or any article used or fashioned in a manner to cause a person to reasonably believe that the article is a deadly weapon; or

(b) By the person representing verbally or otherwise that he or she is armed with a deadly weapon.