Christians on the board...

This is some food for thought about turning the other cheek from Matthew 5:39-41. In Jesus’ time he and the Jews were oppressed and were being treated very poorly by the Romans. A Roman soldier could punish a Jew for pretty much anything. But Jesus found a way to get respect and turn the punishment own to the Romans by the Romans own "morals" and laws.

³⁹ But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

To smack someone on the right cheek the smacker would have used his right hand, back in the day left hands were only used to wipe your ass and I believe it is still this way in the middle east, The smack would have been a back hand, demining punishment, but by turning the other cheek it required a punch to the left cheek. Which demands the respect as an equal.

⁴⁰ And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.

IF you were to give someone your coat and cloke, what would that leave you with? Nothing, you would be bare ass. An nudity was looked down upon especially in public, as it is today. But who would have the shame of making some one nude. By giving someone your cloke the person suing you would hold that shame.

⁴¹ And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

This is one of my favorites, because of the implications involved. A Roman soldier could ask someone to carry their gear for one mile, after that the soldier could get someone else or carry it himself; if someone carried his gear for more than a mile the soldier would be severely punished because the Roman Army had "morals" and laws that were adhered to. By walking two mile the soldier would be asking you to stop and be at your will rather than his own.

Typically people don't see Jesus as a rebel because he was not out fighting a physical war. But he used the system that was in place to get respect from those that ruled over him. There is a time to fight and a time to comply. Jesus over complied, because fighting meant death.

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Originally Posted by Dingo

"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves” (Romans 13:1-2)"

“Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right” (1 Peter 2:13-14).


Not arguing here, just playing devil's advocate. Thoughts?

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To this, I'm reminded of what a preacher once told me: "The laws of God are higher than the laws of man. If a conflict ever came up between them, surely God cannot fault you for disobeying the laws of man in order to adhere to the laws of God."

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Originally Posted by Dingo

How (or do) you reconcile what the Bible has to say re: submitting to governmental authority, turning the other cheek, not inciting/engaging in violent thoughts or actions etc, with the views I know most of us on the board hold re: anti-governmentalism, self-defense, and general ideas of how we'd react to noxious criminal or governmental encroaches on our pursuit of life/liberty?

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If you don't object to a different perspective I'll certainly offer one.

First off, I'm not really sure why I clicked this topic, as I'm not a Christian or even of a Christian based belief. With that said, I have many friends who are and as always we tend to hold a mutual respect for one another and don't tread on each other's god/gods. It is recognized that at the end of the day, we bleed the same blood, salute the same flag, and hold dearly the beliefs of the US Constitution as written by the forefathers who had a great vision but always said, "... if you can keep it....". Today we live in a society that doesn't seem to be 'keeping' what was given, they'd rather turn it over to more government control and regulation. Some of my Christian friends have expressed the same issue you've mentioned and why they'd ask me, I have no idea, my very religious beliefs are rather contradictory to their's, but as a friend, if a question is asked, an answer is given even if its not exactly what they wanted to hear.

In my religion the 'law of the land' should be recognized so long as it is decided by the people to be fair and of a non-tyrannical sort, and/or at least agreed upon by a majority. That also being said, every man should do what in his heart is 'right'. If that right, defies the laws, the people could hold that man's actions responsible if they see fit, and if death is the punishment he should hold his head high and welcome it. Because he's done what it right in his heart, his seat in the Great Hall amongst kindred warriors is assured. A man should enter the afterlife never with fear, but of glory. Fear is only a useful tool to keep this body alive long enough to accomplish his worldly tasks, never should he be controlled by it, only fueled by it.

Christian friends have spoken about their 'fear of god' and I must admit that concept is very alien to me. My gods would not dare 'smite' me, knowing I'd have full justification to smite back, but try explaining to those of a more popular faith that 'revenge' is not the 'evil' they perceive it to be, its only judged that way due to a difference of teachings. A man's family, clan and kindred are to be prized and fought for with every ounce of his being. I have a family, I have good friends of many varieties of faiths I proudly call clan, and the kindred are all of you in here who like me/mine hold true to the idea that our country was founded on excellent principles and has always held great potential, until seemingly recently.

Again, I haven't written this to stir any pots, cause hatred or anything of the sort. We can have differing beliefs yet still hold true to the gift the forefathers presented. And in the 1st of such rights they honored us with sort of hinted that one day there will be those of us who hail different heros and deitys. I merely took this post as an opinion asked for and the one I'll give is "follow what is right in your hearts". But the decision you make is your's to do with.

Hails, and carry on.
Badger

Dingo,
Good discussion. Thanks for starting it. I too, as a Christian, struggle with this. My peace comes from knowing that no matter what happens, God is in control. With that being said,I will fight tooth and nail for my family and my country and our freedom with a clear conscience.

Me and God can hash out the details upstairs when I get there. In the meantime, I'll help Satan fill his quota with anyone that aims to hurt me, my family or my family's future.

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Originally Posted by Ronin13

To this, I'm reminded of what a preacher once told me: "The laws of God are higher than the laws of man. If a conflict ever came up between them, surely God cannot fault you for disobeying the laws of man in order to adhere to the laws of God."

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Without a doubt.

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Originally Posted by Badger

If you don't object to a different perspective I'll certainly offer one. We can have differing beliefs yet still hold true to the gift the forefathers presented.

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Badger - absolutely. I agree with the entirety of your post 100%, albeit through the lens of the perspective my faith gives me. It's one of the beautiful things about the intent of the founding fathers that America should be a haven for the free exchange of differing ideas, and freedom of religion, trade, peaceable existence. I always welcome any diverse viewpoints expressed in an intelligent and fair manner. Thanks for the food for thought!

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Originally Posted by foxtrot

The bible is very supportive of the concept of justice. It is also very supportive of the protection of innocents.

"turn the other cheek" does not mean you are a doormat. It doesn't mean christian women should go around, advertising "I'm a christian, you can like, rape me, or whatever, and I'll just turn the other cheek mmkay!". Capiche? It's about not coming from a position of vengeance more than anything. God has supported many war efforts - even absolute genocide. He/it is NOT a liberal, pacifist, pantywaist. When something stands in the way of his will, he will do what it takes. In performance of his will, you should do the same.

Example: Complete genocide of a people down to the last man, woman, and child. Why? Nephilim. They had infected a gene pool (Philistines). He wasn't above wiping out even children as a means to the end. The bible and god supports both pacifist and patriot. There is nothing telling you to lay down.

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Agreed. I think ultimately it all comes down to individual circumstances dealt with in the perception, common sense, and conscience that was granted us by our Creator. There are always exceptions to every rule, and God gave us brains to figure out the right way to handle things without having a specific Bible verse dealing with every conceivable situation.

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Originally Posted by liberty19

Dingo,
Good discussion. Thanks for starting it. I too, as a Christian, struggle with this. My peace comes from knowing that no matter what happens, God is in control. With that being said,I will fight tooth and nail for my family and my country and our freedom with a clear conscience.

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I'm with you there. I wouldn't hesitate to resist vehemently, answer with violence, or even lay down my life if needs be, in the defense of the things I hold dear. I believe God knows this about me, and is in control of which circumstances I'll be placed in in that regard.

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Originally Posted by Dave_L

Me and God can hash out the details upstairs when I get there. In the meantime, I'll help Satan fill his quota with anyone that aims to hurt me, my family or my family's future.

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Hell yes. If some animal decides to threaten me or mine, they've effectively removed themselves from the algorithm of conscience and placed themselves deep into the territory of instinctual, necessary reaction.

Speaking of Devil's advocate...
Never mind! [Tooth]

Lol. Nice. Hey - one of my managers years ago was an open Satanist. We still got along and had some great laughs. He's a gun guy, so we got along famously.