Ramah/Ben Lomand IPSC

The HPPS club will be hosting our monthly USPSA club match at the Ben Lomond Gun Club this coming Saturday. The weather is FINALLY going to work in our favor so we can host a match. YAY!!!! We are planning on setting up 6 fun stages to shoot. The weather is forecast to be windy with a high temp of 81 degrees. The HPPS club will not be allowing the provisional Pistol Caliber Carbine (PCC) division. Bring an appropriate pistol to participate in our pistol match.

For this match we are honoring the Armed Forces, both Active and Retired. If you currently serve or have served in the Armed Forces your match is FREE!!! Please let us know during registration that your match is FREE for being in the Armed Forces. Thank You for your Service!!!

The Ben Lomond Gun Club installed an Electronic Front Gate and it will remain CLOSED at all times. Everyone entering and exiting the range must input the HPPS Match gate code (24646).

If you can come out early and help setup, your help would be much appreciated. You even get a $5 discount for helping out with setup in the morning. Please remember that this is a volunteer sport and matches can’t happen without the help and dedication of its competitors. If you can pitch in and help setup please do.

Stage Setup starts at 7:30AM
New Shooter Class at 8:00AM
Match Registration starts at 8:30AM
Shooters Meeting at 9:45AM
Shooting Starts at 10:00AM

Thank you for your time.

Charlie Perez
HPPS Club President

303-882-6728

I'll be out there taking my range safety class. Maybe I'll swing by after and check this out.

Sure. If you are new to the range we host this match on the Competition/Special Use berms that are just past the 600 Yard Rifle range. Follow the Competition/Special Use signs and you will get there without any issues. Remember to bring eye and ear protection.

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Originally Posted by CHA-LEE

Sure. If you are new to the range we host this match on the Competition/Special Use berms that are just past the 600 Yard Rifle range. Follow the Competition/Special Use signs and you will get there without any issues. Remember to bring eye and ear protection.

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Perfect. Thank you!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CHA-LEE

The HPPS club will not be allowing the provisional Pistol Caliber Carbine (PCC) division. Bring an appropriate pistol to participate in our pistol match.

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Bummer. Range rule or just grumpy old men that don't like IPSC shooters?

Several years ago, another front range club had an issue with 3-Gun shooters using rifles on a pistol range. Till they were reminded that cowboy action shooters also shoot pistol caliber carbines on "pistol" ranges and the sky had not fallen yet. Suddenly it was ok.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CHA-LEE

The HPPS club will not be allowing the provisional Pistol Caliber Carbine (PCC) division. Bring an appropriate pistol to participate in our pistol match.

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What's this about? We ran PCC outlaw all the time when I was in Area 8. Is this an issue with scorekeeping or what?

It looked like a full match. I didn't stop in as we were out of time but looked like a good time.

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Originally Posted by SA Friday

What's this about? We ran PCC outlaw all the time when I was in Area 8. Is this an issue with scorekeeping or what?

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Charlie does not like PCC. There are other clubs that will let people shoot PCC.

Not allowing PCC at HPPS matches goes beyond "What I like". Here are my six primary reasons why HPPS is not going to support PCC......

First, I don't want to dumb down the stages to allow for safe PCC shooting angles and challenges. Not to mention my props getting shot to shit because they don't understand there several inches of offset between their sights and the bore.

Second, I don't want to deal with dumbing down the start positions to allow PCC to safely start the stage along with all of the pistol shooters. Creating a secondary start position for the PCC division will only cause confusion for the majority of the shooters. I have enough to deal with during the match and answering the same question about the start position 9867932417498 times is not something I am willing to sign up for freely.

Third, I don't want to put a rifle rack on every single berm so shooters can store their guns in a safe location that keeps them from fiddling with it while people are down range. Bagging and unbagging a PCC wastes time since most stages have a decent amount of movement and you would need to wait for a bag to be brought to the shooter after the stage run.

Forth, USPSA Pistol matches are PISTOL matches, not carbine matches. If people want to shoot their carbines then they can have fun with them in practice, 3 Gun matches or rifle matches.

Fifth, The bulk of the people that would shoot PCC would want to do it as a Second gun for the whole match. This effectively takes that person out of the squad rotation of helping with anything. They are too busy screwing around with their guns, gear, or stage plans to help the squad run the stage. This is a volunteer sport run by the shooters. Not a consumer sport where everything is catered to the few who want to abuse the situation.

Sixth, The majority of the RO's at USPSA pistol matches have zero clue in ROing a shooter wielding a carbine. We don't have dedicated RO's for the stages and the shooters RO themselves. How does a non-Carbine knowledgeable RO effectively RO a shooter with a carbine? Very few local Colorado Pistol shooters have the Multigun RO endorsement. I don't want to force my volunteer RO's into ROing something they are not qualified to effectively RO.

I also want to point out that HPPS is only 1 of 12 USPSA clubs along the Colorado Front Range. I am sure there will be other local USPSA clubs that are willing to support the PCC division. All I can tell you is that HPPS is not going to support it at this time.

I'm looking forward to running a couple PCC matches in near future. That said I respect Charlie's rreasons. I can see how it could become a cluster pretty quick.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CHA-LEE

Not allowing PCC at HPPS matches goes beyond "What I like". Here are my six primary reasons why HPPS is not going to support PCC......

First, I don't want to dumb down the stages to allow for safe PCC shooting angles and challenges. Not to mention my props getting shot to shit because they don't understand there several inches of offset between their sights and the bore.

Second, I don't want to deal with dumbing down the start positions to allow PCC to safely start the stage along with all of the pistol shooters. Creating a secondary start position for the PCC division will only cause confusion for the majority of the shooters. I have enough to deal with during the match and answering the same question about the start position 9867932417498 times is not something I am willing to sign up for freely.

Third, I don't want to put a rifle rack on every single berm so shooters can store their guns in a safe location that keeps them from fiddling with it while people are down range. Bagging and unbagging a PCC wastes time since most stages have a decent amount of movement and you would need to wait for a bag to be brought to the shooter after the stage run.

Forth, USPSA Pistol matches are PISTOL matches, not carbine matches. If people want to shoot their carbines then they can have fun with them in practice, 3 Gun matches or rifle matches.

Fifth, The bulk of the people that would shoot PCC would want to do it as a Second gun for the whole match. This effectively takes that person out of the squad rotation of helping with anything. They are too busy screwing around with their guns, gear, or stage plans to help the squad run the stage. This is a volunteer sport run by the shooters. Not a consumer sport where everything is catered to the few who want to abuse the situation.

Sixth, The majority of the RO's at USPSA pistol matches have zero clue in ROing a shooter wielding a carbine. We don't have dedicated RO's for the stages and the shooters RO themselves. How does a non-Carbine knowledgeable RO effectively RO a shooter with a carbine? Very few local Colorado Pistol shooters have the Multigun RO endorsement. I don't want to force my volunteer RO's into ROing something they are not qualified to effectively RO.

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Well, I have to say having been in matches with all of the above because we were running PCC (years ago) and your fears are all BS. You have the option now as PCC is a provisional division. As soon as it's a legitimate division you will have a few choices; run the division or lose HPPS's USPSA sanction. You can figure it out now or not... It's coming and it's about time really.

Bummer. I wrongly assumed it was a range rules issue.

I think there will be a learning curve with PCC.

1. People have been shooting pistols with offset scopes since the mid 90s.

2. Leave stage design as it is. Close up with a carbine is just as fun as it is with a pistol even though it is a tad bit slower. Pistols are easier to shoot fast up close. Easy start position fix is to have all PCC starts low ready or port arms.

3. Unbagging and bagging carbines will add a few seconds to their time for sure. It will be a learning curve for the shooters to manage their stuff.

4. I didn't know USPSA was a pistol only organization. Guess they need to change their name.

5. Pretty broad assumption. It has not even been a division for a month so there is no track record. Or you could just say no second guns.

6. Most ROs are gun guys and I bet a majority of them own an AR-15 of some flavor. A carbine is just like any other firearm. Don't walk off the line with a loaded gun. Don't break the 180. ect.

People have been shooting carbines on stages traditionally built around pistol stages for ages. The sky has not fallen yet.

I have had more non competitive and non USPSA shooters asking about PCC these past few months than ever before. Getting them off the couch and out using their second amendment rights sounds like a good plan to me. Getting people trigger time with a carbine in a close up setting will let people know if a carbine will work as a house gun or not for them.

In the end I don't see PCC taking over USPSA, it will be like L-10, Single Stack or Revo. Just a few dudes here and there.

His fears might all be wrong, but they are his fears and he is holding onto them. :)

Please, Please, Please USPSA give me a reason to drop sanctioning. It would save us about $1500 a year in USPSA fees that we get zero in return for.

I don't know about your last sentence Hoser. PCC has been running crazy at a few matches that have run it for a few years now, taking HOA at several "pistol" stage matches. The companies that are making PCCs can't keep up with demand. It is like some people have never heard of the PCCs until like a few months ago. Marlin Camp 9, Storms, the Old Oly Arms, etc. are like they never existed. :)

The vast majority will be pistol shooters sure, but I think there are a good number of people who will be enticed who 1. Do not like pistols, 2. Have physical issues which make pistol shooting not fun. 3. Get their butts kicked on pistol, 4. Some 3Gunners practicing, 5. A few USPSA regulars who want an occasional change of pace. At least that is what the information coming from clubs with a track record have found.

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Originally Posted by CHA-LEE

Please, Please, Please USPSA give me a reason to drop sanctioning. It would save us about $1500 a year in USPSA fees that we get zero in return for.

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Then dump USPSA sanctioning... You don't need a reason. You clearly are not opened minded to change or what your customers may want. Dump USPSA sanction and go your own way.

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Originally Posted by MarkCO

I don't know about your last sentence Hoser. PCC has been running crazy at a few matches that have run it for a few years now, taking HOA at several "pistol" stage matches. The companies that are making PCCs can't keep up with demand. It is like some people have never heard of the PCCs until like a few months ago. Marlin Camp 9, Storms, the Old Oly Arms, etc. are like they never existed. :)

The vast majority will be pistol shooters sure, but I think there are a good number of people who will be enticed who 1. Do not like pistols, 2. Have physical issues which make pistol shooting not fun. 3. Get their butts kicked on pistol, 4. Some 3Gunners practicing, 5. A few USPSA regulars who want an occasional change of pace. At least that is what the information coming from clubs with a track record have found.

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We would get 3-5 shooters per monthly match at York, PA while I was there. I suspect it will be way more popular in some areas than others; trends of shooters and the local laws. It does have a ton of potential just like Carry Optic does.

If USPSA forces clubs to support PCC in pistol matches then it will be time to drop sanctioning or for me to step
down as MD. As it is defined today the allowance of the provisional PCC division is left to each club to decide. HPPS is deciding to NOT allow it.

If PCC is the next wave or level of practical shooting that is going to flood the ranges with new shooters then it shouldn't have any problem supporting its self in its own dedicated match. If it can't do that then there is no point in trying to cram it into a PISTOL match. It makes more sense to cram it into existing long gun or 3Gun matches where dealing with long guns is already established.

Charlie, you sound just like the guys who did not want Glocks, Red Dots and comps to "irreparably degrade" the principles of IPSC back in the 1990s, but they split IPSC into Limited and Open. Then the Revolver guys whined, and left and started ICORE, then the old guys got spanked and left and started IDPA.[dig]

I love it when people who don't even shoot my match whine about how I choose to run it. If the product HPPS produces does not suit your fancy the there are 12 other USPSA clubs all across the front range that might fit your needs.

My club I'm BOD at took a vote. We said no PCC. I was the only one in favor of it. After hearing the reasoning, it made sense.

In the end we decided to let the clubs that are die hard about it try it out. Fix all the kinks. Later on down the road, we can make a better vote on having it or not.

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Originally Posted by richc2048

My club I'm BOD at took a vote. We said no PCC. I was the only one in favor of it. After hearing the reasoning, it made sense.

In the end we decided to let the clubs that are die hard about it try it out. Fix all the kinks. Later on down the road, we can make a better vote on having it or not.

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Which club?

An indoor club so that alone adds factors we need to consider. Along with the fact that our customer base is not as seasoned as those outdoor clubs in the middle of nowhere receive.

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Originally Posted by richc2048

An indoor club so that alone adds factors we need to consider. Along with the fact that our customer base is not as seasoned as those outdoor clubs in the middle of nowhere receive.

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So is it a secret club, or is there a reason you won't say what club it is?

It's centennial gun club. No secret. Just a little hesitant to out myself or the club to further interrogation.

Charlies call as Match Director to not allow Pistol Caliber Carbines at this time.

Lets move any more chatter on PCC to its own thread.

The HPPS club will be hosting our monthly USPSA club match at the Ben Lomond Gun Club this coming Saturday. We are planning on setting up 6 fun stages to shoot. The weather is forecast with a high temp of 93 degrees, so bring lots of water and sun screen. The HPPS club will not be allowing the provisional Pistol Caliber Carbine (PCC) division at this time. Bring an appropriate pistol to participate in our pistol match.

The Ben Lomond Gun Club installed an Electronic Front Gate and it will remain CLOSED at all times. Everyone entering and exiting the range must input the HPPS Match gate code (24646).

If you can come out early and help setup, your help would be much appreciated. You even get a $5 discount for helping out with setup in the morning. Please remember that this is a volunteer sport and matches can’t happen without the help and dedication of its competitors. If you can pitch in and help setup please do.

Stage Setup starts at 7:30AM
New Shooter Class at 8:00AM
Match Registration starts at 8:30AM
Shooters Meeting at 9:45AM
Shooting Starts at 10:00AM

Thank you for your time.

Charlie Perez
HPPS Club President
303-882-6728

The HPPS club will be hosting our monthly USPSA club match at the Ben Lomond Gun Club this coming Saturday. We are planning on setting up 6 fun stages to shoot. The weather is forecast with a high temp of 72 degrees, so its going to be really nice day on the range. The HPPS club will not be allowing the provisional Pistol Caliber Carbine (PCC) division at this time. Bring an appropriate pistol to participate in our pistol match.

The Ben Lomond Gun Club installed an Electronic Front Gate and it will remain CLOSED at all times. Everyone entering and exiting the range must input the HPPS Match gate code (24646).

If you can come out early and help setup, your help would be much appreciated. You even get a $5 discount for helping out with setup in the morning. Please remember that this is a volunteer sport and matches can’t happen without the help and dedication of its competitors. If you can pitch in and help setup please do.

Stage Setup starts at 7:30AM
New Shooter Class at 8:00AM
Match Registration starts at 8:30AM
Shooters Meeting at 9:45AM
Shooting Starts at 10:00AM

Thank you for your time.

Charlie Perez
HPPS Club President
303-882-6728

The HPPS club will be hosting our monthly USPSA club match at the Ben Lomond Gun Club this coming Saturday. We are planning on setting up 6 fun stages to shoot. The weather is forecast with a high temp of 74 degrees, with a slight chance of rain in the morning. Bring some rain gear just in case if you don't like getting wet.

The HPPS club is NOW allowing the provisional Pistol Caliber Carbine (PCC) division. In order to effectively support PCC we are deploying the following requirements for the division.

1 - Chamber flags are mandatory.
2 - We are requiring the use of bags/cases for all PCC competitors.
3 - Shooters may ONLY case and uncase rifles in the safe areas or under the direct command of an RO.
4 - Shooters may only participate in the match with 1 division. No second gun for the whole match.

The Ben Lomond Gun Club installed an Electronic Front Gate and it will remain CLOSED at all times. Everyone entering and exiting the range must input the HPPS Match gate code (24646).

If you can come out early and help setup, your help would be much appreciated. You even get a $5 discount for helping out with setup in the morning. Please remember that this is a volunteer sport and matches can’t happen without the help and dedication of its competitors. If you can pitch in and help setup please do.

Stage Setup starts at 7:30AM
New Shooter Class at 8:00AM
Match Registration starts at 8:30AM
Shooters Meeting at 9:45AM
Shooting Starts at 10:00AM

Thank you for your time.

Charlie Perez
HPPS Club President
303-882-6728

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CHA-LEE

The HPPS club is NOW allowing the provisional Pistol Caliber Carbine (PCC) division...

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Sweet! Hopefully I can make it out there. Not sure we'll get the showing we like Pueblo last week, I can't let Doguls get any wins in ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CHA-LEE

The HPPS club will be hosting our monthly USPSA club match at the Ben Lomond Gun Club this coming Saturday. We are planning on setting up 6 fun stages to shoot. The weather is forecast with a high temp of 74 degrees, with a slight chance of rain in the morning. Bring some rain gear just in case if you don't like getting wet.

The HPPS club is NOW allowing the provisional Pistol Caliber Carbine (PCC) division. In order to effectively support PCC we are deploying the following requirements for the division.

1 - Chamber flags are mandatory.
2 - We are requiring the use of bags/cases for all PCC competitors.
3 - Shooters may ONLY case and uncase rifles in the safe areas or under the direct command of an RO.
4 - Shooters may only participate in the match with 1 division. No second gun for the whole match.

The Ben Lomond Gun Club installed an Electronic Front Gate and it will remain CLOSED at all times. Everyone entering and exiting the range must input the HPPS Match gate code (24646).

If you can come out early and help setup, your help would be much appreciated. You even get a $5 discount for helping out with setup in the morning. Please remember that this is a volunteer sport and matches can’t happen without the help and dedication of its competitors. If you can pitch in and help setup please do.

Stage Setup starts at 7:30AM
New Shooter Class at 8:00AM
Match Registration starts at 8:30AM
Shooters Meeting at 9:45AM
Shooting Starts at 10:00AM

Thank you for your time.

Charlie Perez
HPPS Club President
303-882-6728

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[rockon]

I know this match notice is a little early in the week to send out but I wanted to give all of the shooters some extra time to prepare for our match. The HPPS team has decided to diverge from a "Normal" match this Saturday and instead have a Halloween Mega Match. The Halloween Mega Match will consist of five LARGE field courses with 40 - 50 rounds each and instead of a classifier we will have a Team Shooting Challenge that your whole squad gets to participate in. The Team Shooting Challenge will be shot in conjunction with the other stages but it will be treated as a separate match as its score can't be integrated into the normal match scores. The Team Shooting Challenge will be for squad bragging rights and I will e-mail out the results after the match.


The Entry Fee for the Halloween Mega Match is the same as always ($20) but you get to shoot 250+ rounds!!! I would advise bringing at least 350 rounds to the match so you have enough to complete all of the stages. You might want to bring some extra ammo just in case one of your buddies runs out before the match is over. Since we know there may be some shooters in the limited capacity divisions that don't have enough magazine pouches to support 40 - 50 round stages we have added the option of reloading off of barrels on the stages. Some stages require that you reload off of barrels and others offer the option of reloading off of the barrels. The weather is suppose to be in the upper 70's so its going to be a great day of shooting. Come out and have some fun trying something a little different.



The HPPS club is now allowing the provisional Pistol Caliber Carbine (PCC) division. In order to effectively support PCC we are deploying the following requirements for the division.

1 - Chamber flags are mandatory.
2 - We are requiring the use of bags/cases for all PCC competitors.
3 - Shooters may ONLY case and uncase rifles in the safe areas or under the direct command of an RO.
4 - Shooters may only participate in the match with 1 division. No second gun for the whole match.

The Ben Lomond Gun Club installed an Electronic Front Gate and it will remain CLOSED at all times. Everyone entering and exiting the range must input the HPPS Match gate code (24646).

If you can come out early and help setup, your help would be much appreciated. You even get a $5 discount for helping out with setup in the morning. Please remember that this is a volunteer sport and matches can’t happen without the help and dedication of its competitors. If you can pitch in and help setup please do.

Stage Setup starts at 7:30AM
New Shooter Class at 8:00AM
Match Registration starts at 8:30AM
Shooters Meeting at 9:45AM
Shooting Starts at 10:00AM

Thank you for your time.

Charlie Perez
HPPS Club President
303-882-6728

The HPPS club will be hosting our monthly USPSA club match at the Ben Lomond Gun Club this coming Saturday. We are planning on setting up 6 fun stages to shoot. The weather is forecast with a high temp of 53 degrees. It’s going to be cold in the morning so dress warm.

The Ben Lomond Gun Club installed an Electronic Front Gate and it will remain CLOSED at all times. Everyone entering and exiting the range must input the HPPS Match gate code (24646).

If you can come out early and help setup, your help would be much appreciated. You even get a $5 discount for helping out with setup in the morning. Please remember that this is a volunteer sport and matches can’t happen without the help and dedication of its competitors. If you can pitch in and help setup please do.

Stage Setup starts at 7:30AM
New Shooter Class at 8:00AM
Match Registration starts at 8:30AM
Shooters Meeting at 9:45AM
Shooting Starts at 10:00AM

Thank you for your time.

Charlie Perez
HPPS Club President
303-882-6728

Winter is finally here and an arctic cold front will be hitting us hard on Saturday. The High temp for Saturday is currently forecast to be 6 degrees with snow as well. That is way to cold to host a match and actually enjoy our time on the range so we are choosing to cancel the HPPS match scheduled for this coming Saturday. Hopefully the winter weather works in our favor for the January match. In the mean time stay warm and enjoy the holidays!!!

Charlie Perez
HPPS Club President
303-882-6728

His does it look for this weekends match?

The HPPS club will be hosting our monthly USPSA club match at the Ben Lomond Gun Club this coming Saturday. We are planning on setting up 6 challenging stages to shoot. The weather is forecast with a high temp of 39 degrees. Yes it’s going to be cold and there will be some snow on the range so dress accordingly to handle the conditions. This is your chance to step up to the challenge and get some match shooting done this winter. USPSA is based on "Practical" Shooting after all and cold, snowy conditions are yet another practical thing to contend with. Come on out and have some fun with the rest of us.

The Ben Lomond Gun Club installed an Electronic Front Gate and it will remain CLOSED at all times. Everyone entering and exiting the range must input the HPPS Match gate code (24646).

If you can come out early and help setup, your help would be much appreciated. You even get a $5 discount for helping out with setup in the morning. Please remember that this is a volunteer sport and matches can’t happen without the help and dedication of its competitors. If you can pitch in and help setup please do.

Stage Setup starts at 7:30AM
New Shooter Class at 8:00AM
Match Registration starts at 8:30AM
Shooters Meeting at 9:45AM
Shooting Starts at 10:00AM

Thank you for your time.

Charlie Perez
HPPS Club President
303-882-6728

The HPPS club will be hosting our monthly USPSA club match at the Ben Lomond Gun Club this coming Saturday. We are planning on setting up 6 fun stages to shoot. The weather is forecast with a high temp of 58 degrees. It’s going to be cold in the morning so dress warm.

The Ben Lomond Gun Club installed an Electronic Front Gate and it will remain CLOSED at all times. Everyone entering and exiting the range must input the HPPS Match gate code (24646).
If you are a new shooter or know of any new shooters that want to attend the New Shooter Class please let me know in advance so I can get the training resource wrangled up.

If you can come out early and help setup, your help would be much appreciated. You even get a $5 discount for helping out with setup in the morning. Please remember that this is a volunteer sport and matches can’t happen without the help and dedication of its competitors. If you can pitch in and help setup please do.

Stage Setup starts at 7:30AM
New Shooter Class at 8:00AM
Match Registration starts at 8:30AM
Shooters Meeting at 9:45AM
Shooting Starts at 10:00AM

Thank you for your time.

Charlie Perez
HPPS Club President
303-882-6728

The HPPS club will be hosting our monthly USPSA club match at the Ben Lomond Gun Club this coming Saturday. We are planning on setting up 6 fun stages to shoot. The weather is forecast with a high temp of 76 degrees. Bust out your favorite shorts and sunscreen because you are going to need it!!!

The Ben Lomond Gun Club installed an Electronic Front Gate and it will remain CLOSED at all times. Everyone entering and exiting the range must input the HPPS Match gate code (24646).
If you are a new shooter or know of any new shooters that want to attend the New Shooter Class please let me know in advance so I can get the training resource wrangled up.

If you can come out early and help setup, your help would be much appreciated. You even get a $5 discount for helping out with setup in the morning. Please remember that this is a volunteer sport and matches can’t happen without the help and dedication of its competitors. If you can pitch in and help setup please do.

Stage Setup starts at 7:30AM
New Shooter Class at 8:00AM
Match Registration starts at 8:30AM
Shooters Meeting at 9:45AM
Shooting Starts at 10:00AM

Thank you for your time.

Charlie Perez
HPPS Club President
303-882-6728

Great place to visit and shoot. Looks like good weather this weekend, it's worth the drive if you haven't been there!