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i pose a question if you see a robbery and hold the bad guy at gun point i there a way that will end with out you getting shot
you may remember the home owner in Arizona that was shot by cops for stopping a burglar (holding him at gun point) till officers arrived.
Who shot the homeowner in AZ? the guy he was holding at gun point? Or the officers?Quote:
Originally Posted by porfiriozg
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Originally Posted by ronaldrwl
I don't think anything I said was implied "What I say is the law." I am merely informing on different situations and interpretations. Again I am being completely misconstrued.
As for CCW. I have had great contacts with people who have them. When I conduct traffic stops the people that I have stopped that have them handed me the card with all of their stuff whether they had a gun or not. At the end of the contact I ALWAYS inform them that it is not a Colorado requirement to do so, however LEO's really appreciate when it is done. And because I appreciate it so much I usually release them with a warning for whatever traffic offense I stopped them for (when possible) as a courtesy in return.
At no time did I ever say anything to the effect of it's my way or the highway.
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Originally Posted by Monky
If it's the same case I am thinking of the answer is yes. Officers arrived and shot guy with gun, in this case it was the homeowner trying to protect his family without actually killing a bad guy.
The shitty thing here is that, if my memory serves me correct, the phone line was still open with 911, or something like that and the officers were overheard on how to cover themselves to not get into trouble.
I wasn't there so I hate to monday morning quarterback the initial shooting, however, the cover up portions is the part where cops everywhere get a bad name, in my opinion. It sounds like they acted too fast, like I said I wasn't there.
I understand it is hard for people to admit when they messed up and so on, but this is a situation where mistrust in the system and the police are even furthered. People who are law-abiding are in fear of being shot. I don't blame them. I think about this whenever I think of any scenario where I would use my gun off duty.
This is what I can remember, if anyone has better info please share
Totally off topic...Quote:
Originally Posted by Byte Stryke
I'm pretty sure my CHP got me out of a pretty ugly speeding ticket the other day. I wasn't carrying, but didn't want any surprises coming up in the computer when he ran my license, so I handed him my permit with my license and paperwork He asked if I was armed, I said no, but I didn't want any surprises. He thanked me, ran my license, and told me I should probably slow down (He got me on laser +24). He also asked me what I did for a living...seemed surprised when I said "I own a motorcycle shop". [Beer]
To the LEO's - just curious here, but when you're doing an investigation/interview of a person open carrying, and you disarm/take control of the person's gun for whatever reason..... is it policy to unload that weapon? Or is it normally left as-is, just temporarily taken control of?
I personally would think that the more a gun is handled, the more potential danger there is. Talking to an OC'er and not disarming him seems to me to be far safer for everyone than having him hand over his gun, or physically taking his gun, and then unloading it, then reloading it, reholstering etc.
After all, a gun can't just "go off" if nobody's handling it. Seems to me that handling a firearm in a public setting should be avoided by everyone concerned if at all possible.
As far as OC is concerned, I'm still too damn scared to try it. I'm sure it would bring misery unto me at some point, in one way or another. One of those things that I'd love to try, but there really isn't any need for me to.
I don't open carry because I'm unlucky.
with my luck streak I'd get a perfect storm of a busload of soccer moms and an officer who's girlfriend just dumped him that would land me in jail.
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Originally Posted by ldmaster
so do I.
and I'm really glad I don't live in CA, where you can only open carry unloaded and the police will stop you and check the firearm is indeed unloaded and "to make sure its not stolen"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsl0W...el_video_title
in this video, the officer tells the guy that he's also a second amendment supporter but that he shouldn't open carry because that's just going to make people call the police, and OC will just wind up getting outlawed, so he's not doing gun rights a favor by open carrying.
that is just stupid. that is like supporting abortion as a deterrent for sudden infant death syndrome and bathtub accidents.
better not exercise your right, or you will lose it. yeah, that makes sense officer.
but I will say one thing. if I lived in CA, or if CO enacted open carry laws like CA, I would start to open carry EVERY DAY.
EDITED TO ADD: oh, and that youtoube video is not alone. lots of videos showing police from ALL OVER the country, not just california, showing gross ignorance of the law. part of the reason why I'm critical of police.
I've had that happen.. I swear I got out of the ticket cause I was carrying and informed the CSP officer...Quote:
Originally Posted by TFOGGER
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Originally Posted by rondog
Totally depends on the circumstances of why that person is being contacted...sometimes yes it is safer to leave on person and other times no...
Thanks! But what about the unloading part?Quote:
Originally Posted by KevDen2005
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Originally Posted by rondog
Again, it has been experience that it really depends on the circumstances AND how comfortable the LEO is with the gun...yes believe it or not, not all LEO's are as familiar as the movies make them out to be.
Sorry about the vagueness, it's just one of those things that if I disarm someone, and am very familiar with guns, I would most likely clear it, and that again is IF I disarm someone. That's just me handling guns often and always checking the status of firearms that I am in "possession" of
So, to clarify for me, if some scared little halfwit calls me in for no reason and the police show up, I have to give up my pistol? Or can I say no, because they have no reason to take it from me? Just a question, I would gladly hand it over to make it all easier, but, just want to know.Quote:
Originally Posted by KevDen2005
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Originally Posted by spyder
That police may take it and justify safety reasons, but no it doesn't necessarily mean that they are going to take it...
So, on a MWAG call, you can take my gun away from me without my consent? Don't I have to be detained on reasonable suspision which is not covered on one of those calls? Wouldn't there be a 4th amendment right violation there?Quote:
Originally Posted by KevDen2005
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Originally Posted by spyder
my apologies to kev, he makes good posts and seems like one of the good guys so I hope he doesn't get too offended at this.
yes the police can take your gun away without your consent, and yes they can detain you for any or no reason they like.
sure there might be a 4th amendment violation, but the most that will happen is you'll spend some time in a cell then they'll let you go without filing charges and you may or may not get your gun back.
sounds like a shitty deal, and it can be, but that's the way it is.
always ask "am I being detained" if the officer says no then BEAT FEET.
if you are being detained say yes sir, no sir, be polite and don't shoot your mouth off. if you resist or cause them any problems you automatically become the bad guy. they can book you for disorderly conduct, impeding and investigation, or any number of things just to make your life miserable. it happens every single day.
It may be common for them to keep your weapon during the duration of your contact with them, and to give them a chance to "run it." It is less common to have them take it all together, but still possible.
There are some court recognized exceptions to the warrant requirements for searches. Consent, plain view, search incident to arrest, exigent circumstances, hot pursuit, impending destruction of evidence, etc... Articulation is part of police training. If the officer can articulate a reasonable and legal reason for the actions he takes, he/she will probably be justified and upheld in court. If he/she goes on an unjustified power trip or unreasonable fishing expedition there are a host of remedies available to a citizen with a savvy attorney.
Never argue with a cop in uniform on the street. It's like being in the proper lane while having a head on collision with a tractor trailer. Sure, you were right, and maybe your beneficiary will see some cash. Small benefit to you.
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Originally Posted by Elhuero
I truly appreciate that and I don't always agree with practices of law enforcement or government either.
If an officer asks for consent you may just want to say "No." A lot of times however, officers ask for consent even if they can justify something else just to have more support, i.e. Plain view in a car, I may also ask for consent, both look good in my report.
I have to disagree a little bit, the detained stop better be articulated enough so that as an officer you aren't violating rights...which new officers or poorly trained officers may do, without even knowing, at which point, I don't want anything to do with the call they are on because I have no desire to have a case in the supreme court titled, US v. KevDen2005.
From what I understand, you can say no to a search of your person, but not to them running your guns.
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Originally Posted by Irving
Which I try not to do unless we are actually taking criminal action against a person...I hate being that guy
I had a scenario a couple weeks ago that i thought was a decent encounter for what it was. I was stopped on the way home from work for my tail lights flickering by CSP. long story short i did not have a valid license because of an error of the court and mostly my fault as well and a couple other things that the court will decide in May. Ended up having my car impounded. I have my application in for my CCW in to Arapahoe right now but for practice/ practicality as far as pants sizing i always have a loaded mag and empty IWB holster on. When we where going thru my personal items before my car was towed I asked to grab my 3 ring binder that has my certificate of taking the class and state laws and basic legal stuff and described it as such. He was very decent about the whole thing and took me at my word as far as having a firearm in the vehicle or not. He gave me a ride to a nearby king soopers and only did a quick pat down and identified the mag and holster and left it at that, and even shook my hand when he dropped me off.
besides the costing me a substantial amount of cash to get the car out of impound/ getting my license back and not knowing what will happen when I go to court I will say it was a positive exp.
DMV won't talk to you without a lawyer just so you know. They are WAY worse than going to court. You MUST be lawyer represented to fight anything with DMV. They are worthless. Just a heads up.
What do you mean? I have/need to lawyer up for this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Irving
Yeah. My fiance lost her license because of a mistake that the DMV made. They wouldn't even talk to her until she lawyer'd up. Once she brought her lawyer, she did 100% of the talking, pointed out everything wrong with her file, pointed out more incorrect things with her file once they brought it all out, and saved herself a year of not having a license because of the DMV's mistake. Her file was super messed up and had tickets for her from a person with a completely different name.
Again, DMV told her to get lost initially, and only after she paid something like $1,200 to a lawyer, who literally only showed up and didn't even say/do anything, would DMV review her file with her. The guy she met with even said something like, "Wow, there is a ton of incorrect information in here."
Stupid assholes. At least in court you can represent yourself without anyone standing in your way.
Was this at the Department of Revenue in Lakewood?Quote:
Originally Posted by Irving
This has been an interesting thread. I thank KenDev2005 for his candor and good nature. I also thank Idmaster for the relation of this open carry story.
I agree that I am a coward for not open carrying and relying on my concealed carry. I believe that if someone makes a call to 911 to complain of an open carry, I thik I should be able to sue them for violating my civil rgiths. Let's look at an analogy.
911 caller: There's a minority person in my neighborhood. We don't have minorities in my neighborhood. I feel uncomfortable. I feel threatened.
LEO is dispatched. Civil Rights lawsuit follows. This actually happened after 9/11 in some states.
This is no different than open carrying. In fact I am sure that the Second Amendment Foundation is preparing the way on this one.
Yep, the Lakewood one.
We open carry when we go ATV riding, funny no one has eve really panicked or given us the weird eye even when we are loaded to the gills with hip pc's ar's etc.
Coming out one day a FS LEO was coming up the road he stopped we stopped he asked about our atv stickers, asked if had a good time asked about our weapons, waved and drove away.