I should not have used the word SCAM, I don't believe it's a scam per se. I just don't see other investments losing 25-30% off the top when you invest in them. PMs are for some and not others and I'm glad we all have choices.
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I should not have used the word SCAM, I don't believe it's a scam per se. I just don't see other investments losing 25-30% off the top when you invest in them. PMs are for some and not others and I'm glad we all have choices.
Maybe because it's not an investment? [Flower]Quote:
Originally Posted by kidicarus13
So gold is not an investment? Your goal is not to make money (or lose less "value") when you buy physical gold? I must know more!Quote:
Originally Posted by ChunkyMonkey
Without writing up 10 paragraph worth of explanation why I am buying silver...
Treat silver as kryptonite against inflation/recession/market crash. It is your life line, a security, an insurance per se.
When market crashes, your silver's value increases upto 500% (based on factual history). Since so far we are averaging one market crash/recession every decade or so, I would take that insurance very seriously. Considering the US fed govt has no way to pay down its 16 trillion dollar debt other than devaluing the USD.
When you buy your health insurance, you lose money every single month. It's only worth its value and beyond when you needed it! Yet, we all (I hope) have health insurance. Well Silver is like your financial insurance, only better... you can still sell the silver at any given time at market price, even if you lose some value at given time; whereas any other insurance, you simply cannot get your money back.
The End.
EDIT: I lost my life saving, some inheritance in 1997 (3 market crashes ago). I haven't lost a penny since then thanks to Silver
Well said, ChunkyMonkey! It's a hedge against inflation. At least that's they way I look at it...
There are some investments which are 'losing' at first: ever buy into an oil well? Or a new mine? Or how about some funds with high up-front fees?Quote:
Originally Posted by kidicarus13
But as already stated, some of us don't look at PMs as 'investments'...
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by ChunkyMonkey
I too could write a a page as to why!
My summary viewpoint; I am buying a small amount of "wealth insurance" every month, and hedging against the dollar. Why? Fiat currencies have a repeated history of dieing, but true money in the forms of silver and gold keep coming back. And if our current system does not crash in my lifetime, I can always pass my goods onto my children and grand-children. I sleep better at night either way.
And to answer queries about my earlier post: CC&V is building a new processing facility that is easily in the 9 digits, and at least two silver/moly mines on the western slope that have been dormant for many years are now reopening and going into exploratory phases. The conglomerates that own these holes don't go digging unless they see an upside...
I guess the problem I am having is paying more than it is worth up front. I don't have a problem with investing in it. Knowing the value of it prior to buying it and then paying 10-20% over is the thing I don't like. I agree that it will go back up and make money, but if in 10 years, it goes up 50%, when you sell it, you only make 20%.
I think you're missing the point. MOST people aren't buying it in hopes of turning a profit. It's an insurance policy against the dollar going to crap. You don't buy a home insurance policy as an investment. You buy it in case your house is totaled. It gives you money to start fresh. It's the same idea behind PM's. Dollar goes to $0, you can have valuable metals saved up to buy goods when things bounce back. Not just valueless paper bills. PM's will always have SOME kind of value in a market. Dollar bills may not.
"When there's blood in the streets, buy real estate"
Quote:
“Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying money, for money is men's protection and the base of a moral existence. Destroyers seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper. This kills all objective standards and delivers men into the arbitrary power of an arbitrary setter of values. Gold was an objective value, an equivalent of wealth produced. Paper is a mortgage on wealth that does not exist, backed by a gun aimed at those who are expected to produce it. Paper is a check drawn by legal looters upon an account which is not theirs: upon the virtue of the victims. Watch for the day when it bounces, marked: 'Account overdrawn.'” - Ayn Rand
This makes much more sense. I was looking at it totally as an investment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_L
Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_L
Really? After 10 pages?Quote:
Originally Posted by encorehunter
DaveL, you should teach calculus!
I had the same thought... *shrug*Quote:
Originally Posted by <MADDOG>
I should really look into buying PM. I currently have 1 oz of silver that was given to me as a graduation gift and promptly thrown into a shoe box.
An example of what could possibly happen to the USD as the world currency: http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldne...or_The_US.html
Quote:
On the heels of Washington desperately moving to buy more time to deal with its financial crisis, today Canadian legend John Ing warned King World News that China is preparing to unleash the “worst nightmare” for the United States. Ing, who has been in the business for 43 years, also stated that the Chinese are about to make a “major move” which will enable the timetable for this “nightmare” to be greatly accelerated.
Ing: “Washington kicking the can down the road doesn’t solve the debt problem. Apparently this process has been so fun they are going to do it all over again, and the markets are getting pretty jaundiced about it. But standing back, the fact is that the US debt is still escalating....
“The US dollar remains weak at just over 80. It did not rally on today’s news. Meanwhile, in the gold market we have an option expiry on October 28th, and we know what usually happens ahead of those, especially given the dramatic drawdown in inventories on the Comex. But my expectation is that we have seen the lows in both gold and silver. I still feel quite confident of that.”
Eric King: “Amazingly, the last time we spoke you predicted that gold could have a $25 dip at the most, and then gold would bounce back, and that’s exactly what we’ve seen so far. What do you expect from here?”
Ing: “There is the need for a dramatic rebound in the price of gold because we saw the 2,000+ contracts which were dumped on the market late last week. My expectation is now that the $1,330 level represents a key area. If gold breaks through that area on the rebound, that will solidify the fact that we have seen the bottom, and people will start coming into gold on the long side once again.
People forget, but we still have the European problems. Their debt is also escalating. So, we will see more recurring problems with debt financing in the eurozone. For example, Spain managed to get off a 30-year note, but Italy and Greece still have some funds to raise.
Then, on this side of the Atlantic you have the push on Yellen to give some sort of indication as to here plans for quantitative easing. But it certainly appears that QE will go into 2014 at any rate. So, the markets, which were all set up for the ‘tapering,’ will now have to readjust, and this means a push upward for the gold market.”
Ing added: “Of interest are the developments in China and India. China and India will take up all of the Western world’s gold production this year. Now, the Chinese have not been idle while the debt discussions have been unfolding. As an example, the Chinese have recently signed a deal in the UK that allows for the renminbi to be converted into pounds. This is something like 24 countries now which are now on board with China’s currency. The bottom line is the Chinese are slowly and quietly making the renminbi convertible.
The next major move for the Chinese is they will allow for their big state-owned companies to buy other companies. That’s a good way for them to unload their foreign exchange reserves, particularly dollar reserves. When that happens, Eric, we will see the first competitive currency against the US dollar, which up to now has held the preeminent position as the world’s reserve currency since 1944.
This process by the Chinese to unseat the US dollar as the supreme currency has recently been accelerated because of concerns about the recent chaos in Washington. You also have Russia now pushing for an alternative reserve currency. So this international movement for an alternative reserve currency is now unfolding in a major way, and it will have incredibly dramatic ramifications for the United States in the future.
But all of this is positive for gold because we are seeing an enormous pickup not only in Chinese consumption, and in bar premiums, but the same thing is happening in India as we now move into the seasonally high period for Indian consumption.
I would just add that 15 years ago the Chinese renminbi was not even on the radar screen of foreign currency traders. Today it is one of the top ten currencies traded in the world, and the Chinese are quickly setting the stage for the renminbi to become the United States’ worst nightmare as they aggressively position their currency to eventually unseat the dollar from its position of global supremacy.”
Where are the shoes??Quote:
Originally Posted by Irving
watch all 4 series on the history of money it's pretty good.
And more on the long view of gold, from Andrew Maguire: http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldne...ollapsing.html
Quote:
On the heels of an explosive mid-week surge in the price of gold and continued weakness in the US dollar, today the man who predicted the massive spike mid-week spike in gold ahead of time warned King World News the West is now collapsing. London metals trader Andrew Maguire also spoke with KWN about what people should expect to see next in the gold market. Below is what Maguire had to say in this tremendous and timely interview.
Eric King: “Andrew, you made a fantastic call at the end of last week. You said that gold absolutely could not stay below $1,300 for more than a few days. We saw the bears holding the price below that key level Monday through Wednesday, but they capitulated on Thursday as gold soared solidly back above the $1,300 price level.”
Maguire: “Eric, last week we talked about the Fed being cornered. The reason we saw the price of gold being held below $1,300 is because the Fed was literally being forced to react to the price rise of gold against the US dollar. This had to do with the government shutdown, and it was forcing their hand -- to give the appearance of stability as the dollar was declining and under tremendous pressure.
So, the Fed moved in to short gold and buy the dollar in the FX markets. Now, the reason I told you we wouldn’t be able to hold below sub-$1,300 for more than 3 days is because of ‘spot market indexing.’ While these synthetic paper markets for gold are putting pressure on the price of gold, the underlying physical market is on fire....
“Lat Friday as we were headed into the lows I reported a major sovereign ‘spot purchase’ to KWN. Remember, we said it was about 90 tons being accumulated, some of it at $1,270. You and I were literally speaking on the phone as gold was making the lows. But that sovereign order had been patiently waiting for weeks and it finally filled.
These trades fly under the radar sometimes because they are initially just a foreign exchange trade, and it’s just part of a major paper gold shuffle in London every day. But it’s only when these paper gold buyers have the audacity to turn up at a PM fix in London and demand the physical gold that alarm bells are triggered.
The bullion banks are then forced to buy at market to fill these orders, and there is no bullion bank I know that can turn up that kind of supply overnight. That’s why we saw 1 - 3 month GOFO rates spike negative once again mid-week. As these orders stood for delivery as it actually forced gold into backwardation again. And it’s going to happen each and every time the gold price is now pushed lower.
So, this is an underpinning that paper traders simply don’t understand. We are actually talking about the cash value of gold vs futures being at a premium. China is going to continue to milk this discount window. They are continuing to exchange dollar reserves for gold, without directly disrupting Treasury and gold prices. But we are now very, very close to the point where China is the gold market.
The Chinese, through Shanghai, have already absorbed the bulk of all global mine production, if not all of it in its entirety. In July alone, Shanghai gold imports exceeded all of the imports for 2012. We also know that official Shanghai gold deliveries have accelerated since that time.
Last week I reported the September numbers to you and it was over 225 tons of gold being delivered. But as of today, for the 9 delivery days of October, we already have over 101 tons of gold delivered. This is an incredibly powerful and diverse underpinning for the price of gold.
Al of this is being reflected by the premiums, recorded deliveries, and what is paid daily above synthetically diluted gold prices. The Chinese don’t care what Goldman Sachs or any other brokerage shills says about gold. They are focusing on building their savings, real wealth, according to age-old ideas, and with a state-sanctioned 20% savings rate invested in gold.”
Maguire added: “All of this paper manipulation has just been a short-term desperation move on the part of the West. Obviously we’ve seen interventions in the foreign exchange gold market, which is complimented by activity on the Comex. And basically what is being done by the Fed is a defense of the US dollar.
It simply results in physical gold flowing out from West to East at an enormous rate. Unfortunately, that is the self-destructive move that continues to take place as the West destroys itself. And when you look at China, who thinks in 500-year or 1,000-year tim e frames vs the West which thinks in one-week and one-day time frames, crisis-to-crisis terms, no wonder the West is collapsing.”
From: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/u-averts-de...-business.html
And analysts say China, whose Communist leaders are due to hold a key policy meeting next month, may step up a push for global acceptance of its currency, the yuan or renminbi, as an alternative to the U.S. dollar in international trade.
"They might actually consider accelerating the process," said Vincent Chan, head of equity research at Credit Suisse in Hong Kong. "You strengthen the case of making the renminbi a genuine international currency, because the Americans are unreliable."
Interesting view on the impending 'bank runs', & some history on Marriner Eccles & The Fed Reserve: http://www.tfmetalsreport.com/blog/5171/run-bank
Quote:
A Run on the Bank
By Pining 4 the Fjords | Monday, October 21, 2013 at 9:26 am
I have a confession to make: there is something that most people consider an American classic that, every time I see it, sets my teeth on edge. Where others find heartwarming inspiration, a mere glimpse of it provokes an intense dislike on my part that I freely admit probably borders on the irrational. So here is my confession: I truly loath the classic holiday movie It’s A Wonderful Life.
What? But Pining, don’t you know that It's a Wonderful Life is one of the most critically acclaimed films ever made? Don’t you care that it was nominated for five Oscars and has been recognized by the American Film Institute as one of the best American films of all time, placing number 11 on its initial 1998 greatest movie list? Don’t you care that the film ranks number one on the Film Institutes’ list of the most inspirational American films of all time?
Sorry, but no. I don’t care about any of these things. I view this film as the single greatest piece of propaganda for fractional reserve bank fraud ever created. It irritates me that this sappy, gauzy schlock has become the mental touchstone for generations of people whenever they think about banking or the concept of a bank run. Most of all, I deeply resent the cultural 'cover' that this film has provided for a predatory and largely parasitic industry through the fact that it has successfully implanted into the American consciousness the pernicious fiction that banks, at their core, are essentially “just all of us working together and supporting each other” by sharing and lending the value we earn. In explaining why his and other behemoth financial firms should be bailed out by taxpayers in the wake of their greed-fueled mortgage fraud and derivative implosion, Lloyd Blankfein could never have argued with a straight face “We are doing God’s work” without having the mental battle-space prepared for him well ahead of time by the generations of brainwashing done by It’s a Wonderful Life. What an interesting Christmas miracle it would have been if George Bailey had told the truth about the bankstering classes:
So get that propagandistic “holiday classic” crapola out of your heads, because we are going to talk about bank runs.
Everyone knows that a bank run is when people start to question the solvency of a bank, and they all try to get their money out at once. Because the bank has loaned out more money than they have on hand in deposits, this means they cannot pay everyone(and usually cannot pay even 1 customer in 20) so when the public begins to question the solvency of the firm there is a “run” on the bank as depositors all rush in to try to get their money out before the bank goes belly-up.
This is more or less accurate, but I would point out one thing- what people are panicked about isn’t quite that they may lose their money. At the core of it all, what they are really terrified of is that they might lose the value they have stored in the bank, in the form of money. A carpenter in Loveland, Colorado in February of 1930 wasn’t sprinting off from his job site upon hearing a rumor to try and withdraw the $293 he had on deposit with the local Savings and Loan because he was worried about the actual dollars. What he was terrified of losing was the thousands of hours of his labor, all of his diligent scrimping and saving, and the (to him) precious value of his earned productivity that those 293 dollars represented. He stored his hard-earned value in dollars, then stored those dollars in a bank… and that underlying value those dollars represented was what he was so panicked to preserve.
Much like our carpenter and his worries about his local bank, at this moment in time China has 1.2 trillion dollars of stored value, on-deposit with “The Bank of the Dollar” in the form of Treasury bonds. Japan also 1.1 trillion of their hard-earned wealth on deposit in the same bank. The rest of the world has an additional 3.3 trillion combined on deposit with “The Bank of the Dollar”, as the total US Treasury debt outstanding that is held by foreign entities is a whopping 5.6 trillion dollars.
I hate to break the news to you, but there is a run on this bank going on right now. Oh, it's still quiet and there is nothing approaching panic just yet, but make no mistake- these countries are just as worried as our fictional carpenter about getting their stored value out of that bank before everyone else tries to do the same thing. You see, the board of directors of the “Bank of the Dollar” (already on thin-ice amongst their depositors for repeatedly issuing themselves I.O.U. withdrawals and spending them at an alarming rate) just raised the “debt-ceiling” level for this practice that they had set in place to reassure their depositors. In fact, since 1960 they have raised, extended, or changed the definition of this limit 79 times, understandably calling into question their very comprehension of the word “limit”. Not only that, but they now appear to have just done away with the concept entirely, recently granting the CEO permission to withdraw literally un-limited amounts, in perpetuity.
The first sign of an incipient run on the “Bank of the Dollar” is that the major customers are no longer depositing their hard-earned value in this bank. They have ceased making the normal deposits that buying Treasuries represents, which tells us that they are already nervous, and are unwilling to put more of their hard-earned value at risk in this bank:
Indeed, the quiet selling of this chart can be compared to the townsfolk stealthily making their way into the bank, attempting to appear nonchalant while they withdraw small amounts that will not draw attention and thus not panic the other customers. At some point, everyone will look around at everyone else, their eyes will narrow, and somebody will make a mad-dash for the teller's window and demand all their cash, instantly spooking everyone else into doing the same. The result will be, predictably, chaos.
At that point, woe be to him who still has his value stored at the Bank of the Dollar when the customers bolt and break for the tellers window. There will be no heartwarming ending when the townsfolk rally around poor George Bailey, saving him from his fractional reserve shenanigans and poor risk management.
There is one other thing I would like to mention about bank runs, and it provides a peculiar connection to the Federal Reserve. In the early 20th-century, there was a banker in Utah named Marriner Eccles. He was the son of a polygamist lumber magnate named David Eccles, who made his fortune illegally cutting timber on huge swaths of western Federal lands, then bribing local officials to produce the proper signatures and paperwork when questions arose. When this failed, he bribed Federal Judges to throw trials. Anyway, son Marriner used his inherited wealth to purchase numerous banks in Colorado and Utah, and in the aftermath of the great stock market crash of 1929, he built his reputation based on his methods of dealing with bank runs. When Marriner sniffed a run coming, he would arrange for large bundles of cash (in small denominations, so there were many bundles) to be delivered and he would deliberately truck this cash straight through the waiting crowd in the lobby just prior to the bank opening. Marriner would then stand in the lobby making a great show, grandly announcing that the bank had plentiful reserves of cash, and that anyone who wanted their money would get their money even if he had to keep the bank open late into the night. On the second day, he would do the same thing but would instruct his tellers to count out each customer’s cash as slowly as possible, dragging out each transaction and minimizing the number of customers who could withdraw their money. On the third day, he would arrange for “plants” to stand in the Deposit line, so that when customers entered the bank they would see people cued-up to deposit, not withdraw, cash.
Please note that each and every one of these techniques was a deliberate deception- a psychological ploy to fool people into thinking that the bank really did have all their money, which of course it did not. These tricks were nothing more than a ploy to hide the dismaying truth that the bank had lent out their money long ago, but the grand show would fool people into thinking that the carefully saved value of a lifetime of hard work was far less at-risk than it actually was. Marriner Eccles gained a national reputation during this time, and in a few years would be named Chairman of the Federal Reserve.
Today, the people who go to work at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York walk through the doors of the Marriner Eccles building, a grand structure named for a man whose reputation was built on tricking and deceiving people about the genuine risk of losing their hard-earned life savings... and the greater the risk, the more elaborate was his deception to hide it. Somehow fitting, don’t you think?
When the run on the “Bank of the Dollar” begins in earnest, I expect that the people in this building will fully live-up to its namesake’s legacy, and that no deception will be beyond the pale to protect the interests of their firm. Indeed, one could argue that, from interventions in the Treasury and currency markets to the suppression of precious metals prices, they are already heavily engaged in the practices that made Marriner Eccles reputation. I seriously doubt, however, that the Chinese or others will be fooled by their parlor tricks.
You shouldn’t be either.
Keep stacking.
More on the 'stealing' from GLD & perhaps why the recent raise in price: http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldne...ing_Today.html
My apologies for resurrecting a "dead" thread, but I feel this issue is worthy of discussion..
First, in case no one caught it during the 2012 CFR interview with one of the headmasters, Jamie Dimon of JP Morgan:
Interviewer: "What about the more fundamental thing? Imagine we get through the fiscal cliff less because we concoct an omnibus deal but rather because Congress finds a way to kick the proverbial can down the road. How worried are you at some point -- if the United States can't do something on the order of a Simpson-Bowles $4 trillion over a decade kind of comprehensive deal, how worried are you that one day you wake up and suddenly your BlackBerry or iPhone is red hot because the bond markets essentially move against the United States?"
Dimon: "It's virtually assured. I mean, it's assured. The question is when and how. And so you know, I can't honestly tell you I know -- this could be two years or five years -- but it will happen. It is a matter of time. You know, the United States can't borrow indefinitely, and you've seen it by -- if you don't believe me, look at, you know, over the hundred years, bankruptcies of country after country after country who just thought they could get away with it because of their reserve currency and the military power of the world. So the -- you know, again, it's a -- why would you take the choice let's wait and see?"
Full interview here, with many "slips": http://www.cfr.org/world/state-global-economy/p29251
Video Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TU5P5...&feature=share
Secondly, to add on to StevenP's vid (and yes I understand this created by a "for profit" company, but the facts are there:
From http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldne...ews_Today.html
Quote:
Rosen: “Today the Wall Street Journal in all its glory performed the service of killing off the last of the weak gold bulls (see below).Astonishingly, the headline and piece below is from the Wall Street Journal, dated today, October 29, 2013....
I will come back to gold in just a minute, but first it is important to understand how the 1970s compares to today, and where we are headed. See the incredible similarity below between the 1970s stock market vs today.
https://col127.mail.live.com/Handler...a29%3a2013.jpg
https://col127.mail.live.com/Handler...a29%3a2013.jpg
The question many KWN readers will ask is, what does this stock plunge mean for gold? Well, the answer will surprise many readers around the world....
“The chart below shows the explosion in the price of gold as stocks sank during the brutal bear market in stocks in the 1973/1974 time frame. Gold soared from $35 to a peak of $204. That’s nearly a six-times increase in the price of gold in a very short period of time (see chart below).
This is not a dead thread, it just falls back and then we want to share something new so to the top it goes. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by <MADDOG>
I checked junk silver prices at the show, $16.75 to $19.00 for $1 face. I called a couple of shops today and they are at $18 for $1 face, except 1 at $20 for $1 face.
ASEs at the show were going for $25 per coin. I didn't ask any of the shops today about their ASEs though.
I buy from Rocky Mt. Coin. Reputable dealer. It is more than junk silver, but I like to buy 10 oz bars.
I like RMC too, going to try L&L since I'll be in that part of town this afternoon.
I paid $15.55 for an ounce round last week on eBay. Sometimes I get really lucky on there.
I can't tell the difference between real or fake silver, so buying from online or eBay is out of the question for me.
How do you tell the difference? Just the weight? Finish? If it's online, do they give a guarantee?
I bought a roll of eagles at the gun show last week for $500. Not too shabby. The vendor was 'the silver guy'.
I've always preferred Dave's a couple doors down. Can't remember why, but I just don't like RMC much. Too impersonal, I think it was. Kinda like a Harley dealership vs. an independent shop.Quote:
Originally Posted by lex137
I go to the one in Greenwood Village. I like them over there always the same 2-3 people every time I go. They helped me out when I needed silver coins for my wedding.
Silver is approaching the $20 mark; Gold is approaching $1250. DOW is up over 16,000, S&P is at 1800. Oil is down under $94, USD is at 80.69 right now, down a little.
Chad and his family are good guys, I like doing business with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by hghclsswhitetrsh
I expect this trend to continue at least through the holidays at this point...I'm going to watch from the sidelines for the moment and pick up some more bullion in January, unless there's a huge price drop before then.
Yea I'm gonna to do this too ^^^^. Unless it drops down to $18 or so. I'm hoping it goes up to $50 an ounce again without the economy crashing.
Nowadays Americans are very short-term thinkers. The stock market is booming so they put their money where it can make the most the fastest without regard for longevity.
Metals are a long term thing, that is part of the reason metals have lost their attractiveness to the general public.
questions from a very soon first time buyer of physical silver-
where do you keep your silver and can I count it....hehehehe.
really though, I just looked at my home owner's policy and it only covers $200 in PM. Do you all keep you silver at home or safe deposit box at a bank? I figure some of my guns might have to share some real-estate with some silver coins but they don't mind. However, I'm pretty paranoid about theft or fire and I only expect my safe to keep out a novice thief or minor fire. (I guess with Waldo Canyon and Black Forest fires the past two years really makes you think how easy it is to loose everything). Case in point, I run a time machine on my macbook constantly, I run a time machine backup once a month then put the hard drive in a fire proof sentry safe which is in my fireproof gun safe. Then once every six months, I do an additional backup to a third hard drive and leave that one at my mom's house, so yes very paranoid!
Second question-
Do you have a ratio split with different size silver coins such as 1/2 oz, 1 oz and greater? Any good reason to do that? Any bad reasons why one shouldn't do that?
Thanks
found this: http://www.gainesvillecoins.com/prod...-999-pure.aspx
thought it was pretty funny. I wouldn't buy it myself but if you really really like .50BMG it might be up your alley!