Keep it classy DC!

There is a pillow fight at like 15th and Larimer every year, but I don't remember there being problems.

Oops, it's 15th and Larimer. I hope none of you guys show up with your pillow to the wrong block next year. haha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn927JFrob4

Well, look out now. You pull that assault pillow, no telling what will happen.

are you talking about those "evil black" pillows?

Since it is in Denver. No pillow is allowed to hold more than 20 feathers at a time. Also, the case has to be at least 26" long.

still a little confusing, can you or can't you conceal a neck pillow in the city and county of Denver.

Inflatable pillows are strictly forbidden. Too easy to conceal...

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Originally Posted by Stuart

I think maybe he should have just produced his badge, instead of his gun. That unnecessarily escalates things.

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I agree with this, but think about it... I know if I were in his shoes I would have been frustrated too. It's extremely hard to combat an unarmed mob of 200 idiots by yourself.

That video doesn't show how long the ordeal was going on before he unholstered his weapon. Also, did they have a protest permit? If so, at what point did their protest become violent/dangerous/out of control? Throwing snowballs at passing cars in an intersection can create a very dangerous driving situation. I've been hit in the windshield with a snowball while driving about 35 mph through a neighborhood and it is a startling thing. If a person were trying to drive through a lot of snow (as they had there) and get through an intersection (as he was there) and they get hit with a snowball right in their field of view, it's reasonable to assume that they could lose control of their vehicle an cause an accident, injuries, or worse.

These people throwing snowballs were idiots out looking for a fight. It's easy for mob mentality to get a hold of you and drive you to do crazy things when you're surrounded by hundreds of energized people. Regardless, the guy that threw the snowball at an armed man (cop or not) was a moron and should have been arrested for assault or kicked in the nuts for being an idiot. I'm a big fan of darwinism. This guy's parents should have kept using condoms or something.

You're not supposed to take on a mob of 200 people by yourself.

There was no "situation" that you didn't see. They were having a snowball fight and threw snowballs at Hummers. He happened to be a detective in a Hummer.

They were not protesting.


The thing that just occurred to me, is that they said they were throwing snowballs at Hummers. How many Hummers go through one DC intersection in just one hour anyway? I guess it was a snow storm though.


Also, do you need a permit to protest? I know they require them in China.

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Originally Posted by Stuart

You're not supposed to take on a mob of 200 people by yourself.

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I didn't say he should've gotten out of his hummer...

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Originally Posted by Stuart

They were not protesting.

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From the article

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Originally Posted by The Washington Post Article

Gas-guzzling Hummers became a particular target, Grishkoff said, because of the crowd's political leanings. (A few people, witnesses said, brought an antiwar sign, although the snowball fight was not a political protest.)

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And I just read it again and I guess to me the article seemed to be written by someone sympathetic to the protesters/snowball fighters... that's the perceived mood IMHO... The article paints the off-duty as a an evil man who wanted to shoot some people throwing snowballs, but from the downright disgusting language and the attitudes of the people in the videos I watched, I don't think the snowball-throwers were all so innocent either.

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Originally Posted by Stuart

Also, do you need a permit to protest? I know they require them in China.

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Cities regulate this. They say that it is so that the local police can plan to accommodate them for safety/barricades/keeping order etc. I think it only applies to groups over a certain number in size... something like more than 50 people required a permit back in my hometown, Grand Rapids, MI.

Regardless.... unless they were disrupting law and order or doing something like blocking the intersection or creating a dangerous situation, that guy should have stayed in his hummer. C'mon guys... snowball fights are fun! [Twist]

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Originally Posted by BigBear

And record snowfall for 6 states... wow, that global warming thing is really catching on!

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You know that the greenies are saying that these record cold snaps and snowfalls are due to the return of El Nino ~ which they say is directly caused by Global Warming. They've got an excuse for everything and no valid scientific data to back any of it up.

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Originally Posted by Stuart

I think maybe he should have just produced his badge, instead of his gun. That unnecessarily escalates things.

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BINGO! (Thanks for the video link Irving!)

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Originally Posted by TFOGGER

If I showed so much as a gun in a holster because somebody nailed my car with a snowball, I'd be in jail facing felony menacing charges. Why should a plainclothes, apparently off duty cop be any different?

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Originally Posted by TFOGGER

I get that he was pissed, but a gun is never the right response to a snowball....

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I agree that anyone even displaying and handling a firearm - even still in the holster - would have faced severe legal repercussions. Even OUTSIDE of D.C.

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Originally Posted by SA Friday

LE personnel are obligated to protect citizens and themselves. You as a private citizen have no obligation to protect either. The key is the cops are obligated weather they want to or not or they can face action that would not apply to you. Hence, escalating to a show of force (pulling a handgun from it's holster) for LE is within acceptable levels. LE personnel are allowed to escalate force to one level above the oppositions. A private citizen can essentially escalate force to the level of opposition. A group of dozens against one cop standing in the middle of what could obviously turn precarious, drawing may seem extreme but I wouldn't start comparing his obligations to non LE's over it.

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I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. In Warren v. District of Columbia (already cited) and re-affirmed in Castle Rock v. Gonzales, contrary to what we've always been taught, the Supreme Court found that Law Enforcement has NO obligation to provide protection to citizens.

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Originally Posted by SA Friday

OK, then why do cops ever protect anyone? Apparently, they have no obligation. Why oh why did I give a shit for those 11 years...

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Because you, like me, possess a sense of duty, a respect for others, and you want to make a difference for the better.


Regarding the escalation of force, the use of a firearm is always considered "lethal force" and I can't imagine anyone thinking that one step escalation from a snowball authorizes the use of lethal force. When I "played cop", we had it drilled into us over and over that you had to use the "Threat Matrix" to determine the proper level of force authorized. While the video doesn't show the situation from the time the guys Hummer gets hit with a snowball until he ends up drawing his weapon, I'm not seeing how this could be an authorized use of force. Yes, it was one officer against a huge crowd of individuals. One officer that chose to escalate the situation into a potential deadly confrontation for himself, the snowballers, and innocent bystanders.

Personally, I think this cop was way out of line. There is one point in the video where he takes several steps towards an individual (who was more than likely mouthing off), gets right in this guys face and orders him to step back. This was clearly an abuse of authority and he was more than likely trying to antagonize the person into striking him (intentionally trying to escalate the situation). This officer needs to be demoted back to uniform street patrol and retrained in how to (a) properly interact with the public, and (b) properly use the Threat Matrix to determine the LEGAL level of force authorized. If he had an issue with his vehicle getting pelted with snowballs, the proper thing to do would have been to pull over (preferably past the snowball fight) and use his radio to call in uniformed officers to disperse the snowballers. This would have had a better chance of keeping the situation from escalating. Things could have gotten really nasty because of this Detective's actions. Thankfully for all concerned, it didn't.

I agree that performing the duties of an LEO is very difficult and oftentimes downright scary. It's a job that I enjoyed while I did it but chose not to pursue it further - mostly due to today’s climate.

I don’t believe that the snowballers were looking for a fight or having a protest – they were just total morons. Now, as far as what should have happened to the dumbass snowballers, they should have been rounded up by every cop they could muster and detained at the station long enough to make it uncomfortable for them to think twice before doing something that stupid again. Anyone that they could prove threw a snowball at the officer should be charged with an assaulting an officer charge.

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Originally Posted by MichiganMilitia

C'mon guys... snowball fights are fun! [Twist]

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Im with you 100% on that!