I'll leave this little gem here,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sniper7

the data about unemployment explains it all. If obama wanted to do the right thing right now he would take the massive cuts the true fiscal conservatives are proposing and stop this downward spiral.

---

How in the hell would massive cuts fix anything? If anything it would tank the economy over night. Its a great bumper sticker but a horrible idea in reality. You want to make massive cuts...... sure, cut all the insane corporate welfare. Why the hell did GE pay NO taxes? Cutting services that help the poor and the middle class just kill Demand in the economy. Without demand for products there is no need for your job or any business that employs you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nynco

How in the hell would massive cuts fix anything? If anything it would tank the economy over night. Its a great bumper sticker but a horrible idea in reality. You want to make massive cuts...... sure, cut all the insane corporate welfare. Why the hell did GE pay NO taxes? Cutting services that help the poor and the middle class just kill Demand in the economy. Without demand for products there is no need for your job or any business that employs you.

---

Let us make this point as well, taxes alone can't fix the crisis either. Only producing and exporting with the increase in revenue will really fix this. We have a table and we're going to set it. Republicans say cut, democrats say tax. Cutting could hurt the market as most major corporations are too dependent on the tit of government. Taxing could stalwart private spending and saving. If we don't use proper taxation, penalties, and tariffs to reindustrialize it is useless to continue this debate. Either party's plan is a short term fix for a long term problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by flan7211

Let us make this point as well, taxes alone can't fix the crisis either. Only producing and exporting with the increase in revenue will really fix this. We have a table and we're going to set it. Republicans say cut, democrats say tax. Cutting could hurt the market as most major corporations are too dependent on the tit of government. Taxing could stalwart private spending and saving. If we don't use proper taxation, penalties, and tariffs to reindustrialize it is useless to continue this debate. Either party's plan is a short term fix for a long term problem.

---

I agree on the short term fix for a long term mess.

But to drive home my point. Taxes have never been lower in the last 70 years. at one time corporations paid over 25% (1950/60s) of the tax burden Today its about 8%. At one time the top tax rate was 90% for those who made over 2 million a year in todays dollars (1950/60s) today its less than 35%. But even that is a joke because most of the uber earners don't work and get taxed on wages. They live on dividends.... and if they are older than one year, they pay 15%. So a Dr who saves lives pays over 35% for his earnings and a parasite hedge fund douche pays only 15% on his billion dollar vampire bite from our economy.

Something is horribly broken and like hell we need to cut taxes for upper classes anymore. The US economy grew by leaps and bounds in the 1950/60s with all those taxes. Today it is vastly lower and our budget short fall is insane.

As for welfare people.......... well maybe we should listen to FDR and bring back the Civilian Conservation Corps or other forms of gov work programs. If we are going to pay them welfare, make them earn it and build this nation something worth while.

Couldn't agree more on your welfare point. Obviously Chicago school economic theories aren't going to fix this economy. I will step out of my conservative comfort zone and say that we are going to have to go down some unorthodox roads to fix some of these things.

Eisenhower btw raised taxes by a ton and most Republicans backed it at the time to balance the budget and update infrastructure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by flan7211

Couldn't agree more on your welfare point. Obviously Chicago school economic theories aren't going to fix this economy. I will step out of my conservative comfort zone and say that we are going to have to go down some unorthodox roads to fix some of these things.

Eisenhower btw raised taxes by a ton and most Republicans backed it at the time to balance the budget and update infrastructure.

---

Eisenhower is to the left of Obama and Obama is to the right of Nixon too. Todays right wing are not conservatives one bit. They are extremists who serve those who pay them. The sell a bill of goods that they are. I agree with Republican Eisenhower on many things. I would have voted for him. Its sad that the GOP has chased out all the moderates. Its gotten so bad that Reagan could never make it in the party anymore.

Yes we need to think outside the box. Both parties are corrupted by moneyed interests. This is why we can't fix free trade. We need to fix our system.

I would accept raising taxes, if it were on a temporary and scheduled basis. Every plan is always like "This should reduce whatever, by this amount, over the next ten, fifteen, twenty, etc years." Seems to me that the US could make a more concentrated effort of saying, "We WILL reduce our debt by X amount over the next ten years by instating this specific plan. By twenty years, we will have reached this level of debt reduction by moving to stage two of whatever plan, etc."

That's how I work my budget. Pick some debt, eliminate it, take that card out of my wallet, move onto the next target.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Irving

I would accept raising taxes, if it were on a temporary and scheduled basis.

---

lol "raising taxes temporarily". That's a good one Irv.[ROFL1]

FDR turned a recession into the Great Depression with his ridicules ideas of raising prices on goods and shorting money supply...... He was an fiscal idiot. But not a bad Commander and Chief.

Didn't think I would agree with Nynco on anything reading through the thread to this point but I will agree with the welfare to work/CCC program idea. Instead of just giving away money with little needed to qualify why not expect a return on investment? I'm sure there are more than a few on government programs that could pour concrete and asphalt. 2 birds with one stone I guess. The 90% tax rate thing though...yeah good luck with that. Seems like the surest way to push the best thinkers and businessmen into early retirement. I've said it before and I'll say it again, when push comes to shove these boys will have no problem taking the ball and going home.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jamnanc

I also am an isolationist. Raise tariffs some, keep tax rates for investments and profits reasonably low, welfare without work only for widows and orphans, only go to war where there is a clear goal and an advantage to your country in victory, or when you are attacked:maintain a strong military to reduce the likelihood of attack, maintain borders, allow as much "legal immigration as is needed for the labor pool", if you are attempting to stimulate the economy with tax money make sure you use it for solid infrastructure which will increase velocity of goods, services, manufacturing, cut government waste, reduce red tape, maintain fair environmental regulations so we don't destroy the planet, but be reasonable about it so that our manufacturing does have a chance to compete because when we send the work to a third world country all we do is increase the likelihood of environmental damage. (Do you know that we actually import things like cement? Low value, high weight, but many local plants have closed due to restrictive environmental law.)

High tax rates on profits and investment=Less incentive to take risk of starting/expanding businesses, more incentive to move your investment overseas, offshore.

Do you have an employer? I work for a small business and I am glad that my employer makes a profit. When the corporation profits, they are able to pay me more and I can buy more stuff which in turn allows some other business to make a profit. The margins for most businesses are so small right now that even a small increase in the tax rate will cause a rise in price or a lack of profit. The owner will have no motivation to be in business and I won't have a job if there isn't a promise of profit. Profit is not a dirty word for the owner, worker, or consumer. Our country was founded by a bunch of people seeking religious freedom as well as individuals seeking profit underwritten by factors in England who loaned them money gambling on the profits to be made by (exploiting) the new world.

At the same time, it seems to me that corporations do need to be held in check, because they do not have a conscience. We also need to fear rule by the corporations as it seems that we are on a path where government is representing corporations better than it does individual Americans.

I am now rambling...

Good day,

---

+1
I think one of the biggest things that gets under my skin- I'm sure I'm not alone here- is the exporting of jobs to other countries. I'm not talking about textiles and sewing and the like, but services. One such company comes to mind- it's a computer company that rhymes with Hell... sending IT jobs to India they should be charged a fee by the government for not hiring in house (IE: Here in America), just because they want to save money. That would stimulate job growth here because a lot of companies that deal in outsourced support do so because it's cheaper, but imposing a tariff or fee against said company for doing so (thus making it equally as expensive as hiring here) would stimulate our job market. 2009 statistics show that the fastest growing graduate to job market is computers, but too many IT people aren't getting the good jobs at big companies due to outsourcing. Frankly, when I can understand the tech when I call for support, I get pissed and stop using your product. Levy fees for outsourced services.

I agree with Jamnanc, corporate rule of America is looming (many sci-fi novels predict this) and the faceless, soulless, non-representative corporation will not care about mine and your well being, only their profit margin. A good example of companies not caring would be from Fight Club, where Ed Norton explains how recalls work. If it would end up costing the company too much in settlements and lawsuits they issue a recall, if not, they can deal with a few dozen people being killed by their product.