The Ant and the Grasshopper

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02-16-2014, 20:20
Hound

Quote:

Originally Posted by crays

Hound,
I believe the point the you are missing, that has everyone in this thread against your posts, is that this is about personal responsibility and character, and not simply receiving .gov assistance.
The "grasshoppers" being referenced in this thread are NOT simply anyone that receives assistance, but those that will not be able to adjust to that assistance being taken away. Your friends, and most of your other examples, do not fit the definition of grasshopper, in relation to this thread. They will, through continued hard work, perserverance (sp?) and fortitude, continue to provide for their families. As a specific example, your "printer" friend, though not wildly rich, has likely instituted some "prepper" (for lack of a better descriptor) type stockpile to look out for his family. Is that a fair assumption?

I wish he could have. He came from abject poverty and did much better than his parents (a testament to the American Dream). Like his parents, I think he still fell short and will be thrown away as a grasshopper even after so much work. That is a big part of where my statements have come from. That and many other people that work hard, many who served their country but were never able to "make it". I don't think everbody should have the big house or fancy car (that is for those that excel) but if you have worked hard and honestly you should be able to live and at some point retire. So many have worked and will never see retirement except through those handouts and welfare. This was the idea behind Social Security and Medicare (we were suppsed to be creating our own mini pensions) but the Government is squandering these with guidance from the commercial world. My generation is regularly told not to expect it even though we have paid so much into it. Even the current generation is not getting what they were promised. I also have a son that will never 'excel'. He will probably be able to work but he will never 'get ahead' and there will come a day my wife and I will not be here....... We plan but can only do so much.

Quote:

And your wealthy friend, may or may not have. There is not enough about his background and character in your posts to say. If he hasn't, then he should. His monetary wealth will be for naught, should the economy catastrophically collapse, and at that point, his character will be tested, and his status as ant or grasshopper will be somewhat revealed.
The missed point is that this thread is not about disparity in compensation, and whether one receives .gov assistance. This thread is more about the propensity of the "grasshopper" element in this scenario becoming more akin to a swarm of locust, when their "free lunch" disappears.

Those that don't work... Screw'em if they are able to. If you have the means and don't save... Same thing. Just be careful of throwing to broad a net with who is getting a 'free lunch'. I generally hate generalities ;)

Grasshoppers are those that take more than they put in or don't plan on a future. You can find both of these throughout the economic range. Not everybody is able to plan for the future when they are living paycheck to paycheck.

Quote:

Just my opinion, after reading this thread through post #32. This is in no way meant to be a personal attack towards Hound. I feel like he just got a little derailed from OP, and some of his valid arguments could flourish in aa different thread, more related to those issues.

Most of the responses here have not been attacks and not too emotional. It is good to be able to inject a different point of view. For the most part this forum accepts other views.
02-16-2014, 20:46
hollohas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hound

This was the idea behind Social Security and Medicare (we were suppsed to be creating our own mini pensions) but the Government is squandering these with guidance from the commercial world.

You lost me again with your dislike of the commercial world. You're right, we can't expect SS to payout for us. But that is because of the .gov mishandling it on their own accord, not at the guidance of the commercial world. Private retirement funds will still be paying out long after SS stops. And private commercial retirement funds have a much larger return on investment too. If the gov had actually taken some guidance from the commercial world, maybe SS would be a healthy program.
02-16-2014, 21:05
Skip

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hound

Madoff, Savings and Loan officers, AIG officers. To name a few.

ya... Just did. All of them crooks. Plenty where that came from. The biggest difference is between those that got caught and those that did it legally.

Those examples... They all HIRED EMPLOYEES! Do you see what you did there? Didn't think so... Capitalism (economic freedom) is so great that even when it fails it succeeds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hound

Getting a bit emotional here but millions have been killed by both governments and capitalists. Keep worshipping at that alter though. Your gods may yet answer you.

Nice rant.. Little too emtional for me, a little short on fact(being nice about it) but you gave it a good go. Couple of questions...... Who do you think 'holds' all that debt? Where do you think all that wealth actually IS? Do you even know how much we make in a year? Many in the middle class are successful and if you have actually read anything I have written you know that is who I have been wanting to protect.

BTW: 120 trillion ..... Try getting real numbers http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/debt/current from those that actually count it, not political functionaries. It is closer to 16-17 trillion. Still a lot of money but not 120T.

More collectivist dishonesty. Go to the link I provided like I suggested the first time...

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

US National Debt: $17T
Debt per Taxpayer: $149,971

Unfunded Liabilities: $127T
per Taxpayer: $1,109,091

Total Debt and Liabilities: $144T
per Taxpayer: $1,259,062

$144T is a GAAP number. The same number that would be on our balance sheet if the government played by the rules (while creating an even playing field).

That is the debt you have put on your children's heads with your stupidity. That is your even playing field. But Bill Gates keeps you up at night?

We could pick the pocket of every American for the next nine years, not allowing him to buy food, housing, energy, or receive any of his paycheck, and still not pay that off (assuming current GDP). You want more taxes? Take it all. Close all the corporations and cap everyone's pay. Guess well your programs get funded then!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hound

I have never been part of the "collective" thought as you show yourself to be while believing you are free and yet selling your children into the same 'enslavement'. It is sad you don't even see it, believing yourself to be above others while actually accepting it. I have not talked in emotion, only in personal experience and long debates with many people. Fools don't know they are fools. I am sure you think I am one. I will be capable of retiring shortly and as my signature points out... I look forward to not caring as much as I do today.

You are regurgitating the same tired ideas that have bankrupted humanity. You are nothing original. Yes, it's all emotional--read your own posts. Marked with envy and anger ready to pull successful people down in the mistaken belief it will elevate you. Well, it won't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hound

The funny thing is, you don't know my level. Odds are your not even close. I talk from seeing others suffer and knowing how the rich take advantage of the poor, first hand. When 87 people hold more wealth than 3.5 billion there is something wrong.

yes, yes history is full of where my ideas lead and I have pointed them out while you have stuck to Fox talking points. It shows a lack of reading and understanding history on your part.

Your level? What is that supposed to mean? That you hail from a higher caste? Typical Liberal BS believing you're some kind of intellectual elite and your ideas are somehow superior.

Here's a excerpt from something I am posting in another thread tonight (if you can shut your mouth long enough to read it). This where your ideas lead. Behold your Liberal utopia...

Quote:

Our founder, Vladimir Lenin, was portrayed as a noble, charismatic, and smart man -- the champion of the underdog (the working class), the seeker of equality, defeater of the rich. The humble man with common ideas who was destined for greatness.

[snip]

As much as my family shielded me from their troubles, they couldn't protect me from factors beyond their control. They couldn't raise my level of living above theirs. And they certainly couldn't get me anesthetics for dental visits. Sitting in the gray, sterile corridor for two hours, hearing the sobbing of the kids already in the dental chair as their teeth were drilled without anesthetics, water, or suction, and knowing that your turn was coming -- some handled it better than others.

In the local clinic, needles were resterilized and reused. Ambulances took three hours to arrive, if they came at all.
That was our "free" healthcare.

We also lived in a "free" apartment, which was suffocatingly small by American standards, and it took years, if not decades, for an average couple to obtain such a place. Usually, several generations of a family lived under one roof until the government bestowed upon its citizens another gray five- to sixteen-story building that looked just like its gray neighbor and had the same exact green-painted swings in the yard.

[snip]

You see how original you are? Lenin was slinging the same shit 90 years ago. It only lead to the murder of 10M innocent people. All middle class farmers called "Kulaks." All workers (ants) who were starved by grasshoppers who wanted a level playing field. And in the end they all suffered.
02-16-2014, 21:54
Hound

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollohas

You lost me again with your dislike of the commercial world. You're right, we can't expect SS to payout for us. But that is because of the .gov mishandling it on their own accord, not at the guidance of the commercial world. Private retirement funds will still be paying out long after SS stops. And private commercial retirement funds have a much larger return on investment too. If the gov had actually taken some guidance from the commercial world, maybe SS would be a healthy program.

Social Security is having issues because of dipping into it during the Reagan years. I remember watching the debates. Those private commercial retirements won't survive another Great.... Whatever comes next. They have bounced back now but as an example my father got screwed because it hit at just the wrong time.

That was the point of SS. It was ALWAYs supposed to be there... Regardless and would have been if not raided. They did take commercial guidance..... And gave the money to fund the indutrial military complex of 400 ships and crap like StarWars.

BTW: I don't hate capitalism or the commercial world. They are good overall. What I do hate are monopoly's and not sharing in the prosperity. Lowballing the honest work of those where the rubber meets the road in a business. I find great fault with both Government and MegaCompanies. I support small companies and small business everytime I can. I have personally seen the Corporate, Union and Government shaft the middle class in my time. I didn't agree with any of them when it was happening. It usually happens when they are out of balance and the greed of a few feeds on the rest of us.
02-16-2014, 21:55
Hound

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skip

Those examples... They all HIRED EMPLOYEES! Do you see what you did there? Didn't think so... Capitalism (economic freedom) is so great that even when it fails it succeeds.

More collectivist dishonesty. Go to the link I provided like I suggested the first time...

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

US National Debt: $17T
Debt per Taxpayer: $149,971

Unfunded Liabilities: $127T
per Taxpayer: $1,109,091

Total Debt and Liabilities: $144T
per Taxpayer: $1,259,062

$144T is a GAAP number. The same number that would be on our balance sheet if the government played by the rules (while creating an even playing field).

That is the debt you have put on your children's heads with your stupidity. That is your even playing field. But Bill Gates keeps you up at night?

We could pick the pocket of every American for the next nine years, not allowing him to buy food, housing, energy, or receive any of his paycheck, and still not pay that off (assuming current GDP). You want more taxes? Take it all. Close all the corporations and cap everyone's pay. Guess well your programs get funded then!

You are regurgitating the same tired ideas that have bankrupted humanity. You are nothing original. Yes, it's all emotional--read your own posts. Marked with envy and anger ready to pull successful people down in the mistaken belief it will elevate you. Well, it won't.

Your level? What is that supposed to mean? That you hail from a higher caste? Typical Liberal BS believing you're some kind of intellectual elite and your ideas are somehow superior.

Here's a excerpt from something I am posting in another thread tonight (if you can shut your mouth long enough to read it). This where your ideas lead. Behold your Liberal utopia...

You see how original you are? Lenin was slinging the same shit 90 years ago. It only lead to the murder of 10M innocent people. All middle class farmers called "Kulaks." All workers (ants) who were starved by grasshoppers who wanted a level playing field. And in the end they all suffered.

So emotional and so clueless. The refuge of the desperate.
02-16-2014, 22:26
crays

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hound

Social Security is having issues because of dipping into it during the Reagan years.

Do your research before putting your foot in your mouth. It was not Reagan, but the Dems that have always mandated the raiding of SS. Every time. Look it up.

ETA: Reagan did sign into law taxes on SS earnings, but only above a certain income threshold...Something you should applaud, given your statements in this thread. (If you don't get that, it means that if you are making a certain amount of income, in addition to SS, a portion of your SS may be taxed as income.) BTW, from my personal perspective, getting a payout from SS (which I do not), which you, as an idividual have paid into (mandated by .gov, none the less), is not a .gov handout. The travesty lies in the fact that I will likely never see a cent of SS benefit myself, because I am a productive, competent contributor to society, and SS will have been long since sucked dry by so many, that somehow were paid benefits, yet never contributed to the fund.

Also interesting is that in your rebuttal to my reply, you are now referring to your printer repair friend in the past tense. And now your child has no chance to excel (your statement). What's up with that? Are you the repair guy. Is it your child you were referring to in your original reference to said repair guy? You need to start your own bitch thread to bitch about what you want to bitch about. This thread was started to comment on the current state of the rampant FSA element in society, and not the poor, down-trodden, defeated working class in our society that cannot get ahead, because they are being held back by the system. Better your lot in life, or accept it.

I am not inclined to respond further in this thread.

Sent via my Mobile Work Avoidance Device
02-16-2014, 23:01
Hound

Quote:

Originally Posted by crays

Do your research before putting your foot in your mouth. It was not Reagan, but the Dems that have always mandated the raiding of SS. Every time. Look it up.

Sent via my Mobile Work Avoidance Device

My foot is fine. Lived it. Remember the debates. Don't need to look it up.
02-17-2014, 00:35
Hound

Quote:

Originally Posted by crays

Do your research before putting your foot in your mouth. It was not Reagan, but the Dems that have always mandated the raiding of SS. Every time. Look it up.

ETA: Reagan did sign into law taxes on SS earnings, but only above a certain income threshold...Something you should applaud, given your statements in this thread. (If you don't get that, it means that if you are making a certain amount of income, in addition to SS, a portion of your SS may be taxed as income.)

Actually he put through MANY more laws than that on SS. Tip O'Niel once said of Reagan policies it was "one big Christmas party for the rich." Reagan ran up the bill with the treasury on defense spending that tapped into the surplus that SS was supposed to put away for future generations. These were the 'selling our kids future' debates of the time. Um.... For your next statement.... That was our future they were debating.

Quote:

BTW, from my personal perspective, getting a payout from SS (which I do not), which you, as an idividual have paid into (mandated by .gov, none the less), is not a .gov handout. The travesty lies in the fact that I will likely never see a cent of SS benefit myself, because I am a productive, competent contributor to society, and SS will have been long since sucked dry by so many, that somehow were paid benefits, yet never contributed to the fund.

Actually we agree here for the most part. Read below for the exceptions, I am good with.

Quote:

Also interesting is that in your rebuttal to my reply, you are now referring to your printer repair friend in the past tense.

He is quickly approaching retirement age and the fact is at his level of earning he has no chance of being able to retire. The past tense is appropriate because there is nothing he can really do at this point.

Quote:

And now your child has no chance to excel (your statement). What's up with that? Are you the repair guy. Is it your child you were referring to in your original reference to said repair guy? You need to start your own bitch thread to bitch about what you want to bitch about. This thread was started to comment on the current state of the rampant FSA element in society, and not the poor, down-trodden, defeated working class in our society that cannot get ahead, because they are being held back by the system. Better your lot in life, or accept it.

My son is developmentally challenged as it seems so many are now days. I am not the guy on the press's and not 'just bitching'. It adds another level of difficulty to my own circumstances and was only brought up because many people (and their families) are in my son's shoes. You can't help how you are when you come out or what happens to you in life. Some are perfectly healthy and have every chance to excel but don't. Others come out with varying degrees of "challenges" because ... It happens. My son had over 37 operations before he was a year old. It is a miracle he is alive and my wife is an amazing mother. I am lucky to have both in so many ways. Still others have things happen to them completly out of their control like an IED blowing up or just the pressure of being shot at is too much. 2 out of 3 of these are not 'Grasshoppers' yet they would fit nicely into the first post of this thread since they may get assistance.

Quote:

am not inclined to respond further in this thread.

Sent via my Mobile Work Avoidance Device

Reply or not is your own decision. I have simply tried to respond in kind to your and others responses as this is a good debate. Debate being a good exchange of point and counter point without emotion. Once emotion comes into it, its just an argument and nobody is really listening. Many on this forum claim to be open to opinions (and I have found that to be mostly true). I have shared mine. We differ, and that is healthy. It stops the echo chambers I started seeing.
02-18-2014, 14:20
crays

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hound

Actually he put through MANY more laws than that on SS. Tip O'Niel once said of Reagan policies it was "one big Christmas party for the rich." Reagan ran up the bill with the treasury on defense spending that tapped into the surplus that SS was supposed to put away for future generations. These were the 'selling our kids future' debates of the time. Um.... For your next statement.... That was our future they were debating.

I will concede, in a sense, on this point. We can both continue to dig up instances where BOTH sides have been effectively screwing us, and our future generations, over. (that could be a whole thread on its own)

Quote:

He is quickly approaching retirement age and the fact is at his level of earning he has no chance of being able to retire. The past tense is appropriate because there is nothing he can really do at this point.

Point taken. But still, he sounds like a survivor to me, not a grasshopper. Sad that so many can no longer/will not be able to acheive the dream of a comfortable retirement.

Quote:

My son is developmentally challenged as it seems so many are now days. I am not the guy on the press's and not 'just bitching'. It adds another level of difficulty to my own circumstances and was only brought up because many people (and their families) are in my son's shoes. You can't help how you are when you come out or what happens to you in life. Some are perfectly healthy and have every chance to excel but don't. Others come out with varying degrees of "challenges" because ... It happens. My son had over 37 operations before he was a year old. It is a miracle he is alive and my wife is an amazing mother. I am lucky to have both in so many ways.

My heart sincerely goes out to you, and all families who deal with this challenge on a daily basis. The weight of it is not lost on me. I am truly happy for you that he is still with you.

Quote:

Still others have things happen to them completly out of their control like an IED blowing up or just the pressure of being shot at is too much. 2 out of 3 of these are not 'Grasshoppers' yet they would fit nicely into the first post of this thread since they may get assistance.

And that bolded last bit ^^^ is where I feel you are still missing the point of this thread. You were very quick to generalize that all people receiving assistance were being called out.
My understanding of this thread is that the "Grasshoppers" referred to in this thread, do not include people in the above snippet. The GH's being referenced are those that are capable, yet unwilling, to get off the dole. Those same GH's will be complaining the loudest, and likely causing the most disruption, when their free stuff stops flowing in. Those who are truly qualified, and deserving, of .gov assistance are typically not the issue.
There are many, many true GH's out there gaming the system. I do not begrudge anyone of deserved assistance, and do not simply count them as GH's merely for accepting assistance. That, in my opinion, is the disconnect that has spun this thread wild. The OP generalizes about the FSA types/societal sponges being the GH's, you expanded that generalization to include anyone who receives any form of assistance in that description. It is my opinion that many of the other members undertood it the same way.
And then the fun started. /sarcasm

Quote:

.... Many on this forum claim to be open to opinions (and I have found that to be mostly true). I have shared mine. We differ, and that is healthy.

Agreed.

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