Has anybody here actually had to use their weapon?

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Originally Posted by Byte Stryke

edit: and Yes, I am in agreement that deadly force could be seen as justified against an aggressor with a baseball bat. I believe that is included in the "serious bodily injury" section.

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Easily explained to LE, especially when he has more than 1 witness... "I feared for my friend's life and thus used necessary force to prevent serious bodily injury." Open and shut... I too have seen what damage a bat can cause to the cranium, it is not pretty. Even if you survive the initial blow there can be extensive damage and long term injury. I have a very delicate case on my hands when it comes to self defense... I suffer from Cervical Spine Rediculopothy (I had a neck injury that led to the surgical removal of one of my C-spine discs and now I have "equipment" connecting two of my vertebrae), TBI and PTSD, I have a very viable reason to defend myself from potential serious bodily injury, one wrong move and I could be either dead or paralyzed and I have every right to prevent this from happening caused by any altercation.

Actually he did say it was dark, I didn't say how late, and in reality the point was not what time it was but just how dangerous to life and liberty the situation OP had put himself in.

Why stay and confront the homeowner at all?

Why not quickly take his friends safely away?

Then the fact that the guy "fake" swings a bat at a friends head!! What if one hadn't been a fake swing that his buddy didn't flinch at. A baseball bat to the head is potentially deadly. It is an insane situation to put yourself in, and it is obvious the OP actually put himself in the situation. I have to say, if someone "fake" swings a baseball bat at my friend's head I really would have thought about fake pulling my gun and fake shooting the guy. Faking a swing at someone's head with a baseball bat is, as I understand it, a justifiable reason for being shot.

I'm all for protecting yourself by whatever means necessary, and I've used firearms both defensively and offensively, but I have also made serious mistakes before, by not making avoiding stupid confrontations a priority.

I'm not going to leap in here and tell the OP he should have capped the guy and it was a righteous shoot! I was simply trying to play the devil's advocate and show that there is another way that the circumstances could have been seen. We don't know if the homeowner was sipping a coke and keeping a watch out for others that may have perpetrated property crimes in the area. There is a lot we don't know. What we do know, from the OP's descriptions, is that he certainly had the opportunity to get out of a potentially bad situation and in staying made it potentially even worse.

Cameron

ETA: I have certainly made some errors in judgement, that put me and those I care about in dangerous situations. I may have even caused trouble that I could have avoided. However, once the situation has become unavoidable and we are in a self defense situation it doesn't really matter how we ended up there it now only matters that we survive.

Cam

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Originally Posted by Bailey Guns

First of all, he didn't say it was late at night. Second, I don't think it was a trash can he was kicking. I assumed from the context of the story, maybe incorrectly, it was something like a soda can...not the guy's trash can.

Then you have the nerve to chastise the OP for what his buddy did and how "stupid and potentially criminal" his behavior was and in the next breath talk about confronting someone for basically the same thing?

So you're willing to confront someone after arming yourself with a gun over that person kicking a can in the road. And then get into a gunfight if the persons you confront take steps to protect themselves or talk back to you. And yet the other guys are stupid and need to think about their behavior.

Yeah....I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that.

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Originally Posted by Cameron

Actually he did say it was dark, I didn't say how late, and in reality the point was not what time it was but just how dangerous to life and liberty the situation OP had put himself in.

Why stay and confront the homeowner at all?

Why not quickly take his friends safely away?

Then the fact that the guy "fake" swings a bat at a friends head!! What if one hadn't been a fake swing that his buddy didn't flinch at. A baseball bat to the head is potentially deadly. It is an insane situation to put yourself in, and it is obvious the OP actually put himself in the situation. I have to say, if someone "fake" swings a baseball bat at my friend's head I really would have thought about fake pulling my gun and fake shooting the guy. Faking a swing at someone's head with a baseball bat is, as I understand it, a justifiable reason for being shot.

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x 1,000,000

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Originally Posted by Ronin13

Easily explained to LE, especially when he has more than 1 witness... "I feared for my friend's life and thus used necessary force to prevent serious bodily injury." Open and shut... I too have seen what damage a bat can cause to the cranium, it is not pretty. Even if you survive the initial blow there can be extensive damage and long term injury. I have a very delicate case on my hands when it comes to self defense... I suffer from Cervical Spine Rediculopothy (I had a neck injury that led to the surgical removal of one of my C-spine discs and now I have "equipment" connecting two of my vertebrae), TBI and PTSD, I have a very viable reason to defend myself from potential serious bodily injury, one wrong move and I could be either dead or paralyzed and I have every right to prevent this from happening caused by any altercation.

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absolutely.

I think you have endured more than enough to have to worry about some jack-hole playing tough guy.

The disparity of force is a big issue in the less clear cut cases of self defense. From having seen how easy it is to get a TBI (Traumatic Brian Injury), a baseball bat only differs from a gun in that is has shorter range. If someone comes at you swinging one fire a warning shot into his center of mass.

It helps me that I'm older and have a chronic arthritis. My doctor would certify that I could be beat up by a rabbit.

I've never had to draw a gun but I did open a holster once. This is an old thread so I might have mentioned it once. I was collecting rocks along a road in south New Mexico about 10 years ago. It was west of Columbus, the town Pancho Villa invaded, and probably just a few 100 yards from the border.

A junker car with about 5 low life looking young guys came at me in a scene out of Treasure of The Sierra Madre. "Senor what are you doing out here by yourself?" Real creepy. Rude gestures from them and some Spanish words which I'm sure my dear departed Mom ever did. I turned around to show my S&W 586 and unbuckled the holster with my hand on it and they did a U-turn and burned rubber away. It was actually loaded with snake shot but I did have two speed loaders next to it with hollow points.

Steve

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Originally Posted by bobbyfairbanks

I didn't even get a significant adrenaline rush like I've had in fist fights.


I am calling BS on you. No one and I mean no but a psycho would not get a rush from almost pulling his gun.

I am sure you where so cold and mindlessly ready to kill. Watch your BS buddy. Some people around here have been in fights with bullets flying.

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The calmness and cold emotion can and does happen to folks. Military training has a way of making that happen for you.

When I had a guy get out of his vehicle at a stop light after throwing objects at us because h thoguht I cut him off and i tried to wave him off and say Im sorry, when infact he made an illegal alne change and almost hit me. I had the entire fam in the car and I unholstered when he was walking toawrds the vehicle, wife was on the phone with 911 and I had the window cracked and forcefully told him to get back in his vehicle. I was calm and cool and knew what had to be done if he tried to gain entry. He saw the 1911 on my lap and started talking tough for a moment then realized I was dead serious about my intent if he escalated things further and went back to his vehicle. I filed a police report and the detective I was talking to was on my side and said if that douche was anywhere else in Denver,this was in Arvada, he would probably have been shot and it would have been justified by his previous actions and his actions by getting out and advancing on our vehicle. For those that say, just drive off, I was stopped in traffic and in the middle lane and vehicles on all sides. SOmething I dont allow myself to get pinned in to often anymore.
My wife was scared shitless cuz she saw the cold emotionless face I had and how calm I really was. She thought for sure I was going to kill that guy if he did anything stupid. The fact I didnt point it at him or even put my hand on the grip, my firing hand was on my thigh waiting for him to do something was waht the Detective said I did things right.He understood why i had it on my lap as I was backed into a corner so to speak and knew I wanted to be ready for anything. My military training kicked in as to reacting to the situation and staying calm and cool during the altercation. About 10 misn after when reality set in, adrenaline starting kicking in and thats when I kinda lost my cool cuz all I could think of was my kids seeing me shoot a person centermass and killing them on the street. My kids mental state worried more then anything.

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Originally Posted by Bailey Guns

I find his story completely plausible. Although, I would've had a hard time not ventilating that turd if he was starting to swing a bat at my buddy's head. Of course, when you're actually there you can "read" things much better than you can through "reading" it afterwards. So I understand.

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I was about to make my move... in motion going towards him... when he stopped his swing. As I said I was standing at his 2. Plan was when he swings, jump to my 11 or so so that I'm behind him while grabbing and pushing his swinging arm down and to the right, hook my left arm around him and get him in a sleeper hold and choke him out till he passes out. Then get in the car and get the hell outta dodge.

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Originally Posted by BigMat

quick post for now-

I have transported two baseball bat + head, patients. I would have thought more seriously about drawing that weapon. A baseball bat can kill you. It can very easily ruin the rest of your life if it makes contact with your skull. One swing. I have lost enough fights to not take chances and never overestimate my own skill, be careful! Up close, if he is fast enough, I would have given him the edge in that fight, at striking range, a gun in the holster looses to a bat in the hand, and if he swung, its one on one. I don't want a "and X from the forum got killed by an old idot with a bat" thread.

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I know... a bat is an impact weapon, and impact weapons can definitely be lethal or cause TBI. Last night I felt that it could have very easily be handled hand to hand, but looking back on the situation (if the same thing ever happens again), I think I just might draw on him when he approaches and leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by dropped_71chevy

It sounds like you did well mcantar18c. I've got a buddy that runs his mouth too much when I'm around knowing that I'll have his back. It's gotten us into a couple of interesting situations but fortunately no one's been hurt.

The only thought I had was whether or not you could have made an honest attempt to retreat. It sounded like there was an opportunity to remove yourselves from the situation while the homeowner was approaching you but of course I wasn't there so I'm not going to say you did the wrong thing by allowing him to approach.

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The car was about twice as far from us as he was, locked, there were three of us that hand to get in through 2 doors, and starting the car takes time.
First thought being he's coming towards us with a shotgun, and seeing he isn't aiming it at us yet, I figured I'd be better off taking it head on and not turning my back on him or giving him time to act while I'm preoccupied. Not to mention, a vehicle is a bullet magnet.

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Originally Posted by Cameron

Is it just me or can anyone else see the news article if the OP had shot the guy.



I have to say from your account, you are very lucky that it was not more serious. If some shit head was kicking garbage cans in my neighborhood and then cussed at me when I told him to stop. I definitely would have come down to have a talk and I certainly wouldn't have been armed with just a bat, and if some punk tried to flank me with his hand on a gun we would have found out who puts in more quality time in at the range...

I would strongly suggest that you an your friends really think about the consequences of your actions. Kicking cans late at night is idiotic and immature behavior, then to stand there and cuss out the home owner who calls you out on it and even get ready to shoot the guy is completely stupid and potentially criminal.

You should have told your friend to apologize and quickly left before the homeowner came out. I know half a dozen guys in Denver if you had tried that shit on their front lawn it would have gone down very very differently. Count yourself lucky that you are not in hospital or jail this morning, and really think about what you are doing.

Cameron

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It was a crushed soda can laying in the middle of the street. I don't consider kicking something like a can, rock, etc. in your way while walking "idiotic and immature behavior."
And if you approach myself or a friend in my presence, after cussing at us and calling us this and that, while openly armed, all for kicking a can in the street... you're gonna be in deep shit (we ain't the group of punks you think we are). Especially if you think "putting in more quality time at the range" is gonna help you at all, there's a difference between shooting a gun and fighting with a gun... although we're getting into another discussion here.

It was a crushed soda can laying in the middle of the street. I don't consider kicking something like a can, rock, etc. in your way while walking "idiotic and immature behavior."

I think you handled it fine, the street is not his property, you weren't kicking the can in a punk ass nature, maybe the homeowner was just having a shitty day, or there have been suspicious activities in the hood. Either way, make sure you know who you're barking at and why (homeowner).

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Originally Posted by mcantar18c

I was about to make my move... in motion going towards him... when he stopped his swing. As I said I was standing at his 2. Plan was when he swings, jump to my 11 or so so that I'm behind him while grabbing and pushing his swinging arm down and to the right, hook my left arm around him and get him in a sleeper hold and choke him out till he passes out. Then get in the car and get the hell outta dodge.


I know... a bat is an impact weapon, and impact weapons can definitely be lethal or cause TBI. Last night I felt that it could have very easily be handled hand to hand, but looking back on the situation (if the same thing ever happens again), I think I just might draw on him when he approaches and leave it at that.


The car was about twice as far from us as he was, locked, there were three of us that hand to get in through 2 doors, and starting the car takes time.
First thought being he's coming towards us with a shotgun, and seeing he isn't aiming it at us yet, I figured I'd be better off taking it head on and not turning my back on him or giving him time to act while I'm preoccupied. Not to mention, a vehicle is a bullet magnet.



It was a crushed soda can laying in the middle of the street. I don't consider kicking something like a can, rock, etc. in your way while walking "idiotic and immature behavior."
And if you approach myself or a friend in my presence, after cussing at us and calling us this and that, while openly armed, all for kicking a can in the street... you're gonna be in deep shit (we ain't the group of punks you think we are). Especially if you think "putting in more quality time at the range" is gonna help you at all, there's a difference between shooting a gun and fighting with a gun... although we're getting into another discussion here.

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Just from your narrative I feel like no one can really fully grasp the situation until they are in it. I'm sure some would say "Oh you were wrong in even thinking of pulling you gun" or this and that. No, it's the situation you're in that dictates what happens. Like with me when pulling and deciding to use a weapon, I was trained NOT to hesitate, NOT to withdraw (US Army infantry 101- NEVER RETREAT) and NOT to cease until the threat has been eliminated. It's one thing to say what you would have/could have/should have done, but when the rubber meets the road and you first suspect it's a firearm being brought to bear against you and yours then you have to think of what your next action(s) will be. I would have done the same thing. If I kicked a can and a guy got in a hissy because of it, well shame on him he shouldn't be such a prick. Now if I instigated something, no I wouldn't have thought of using a gun, I'd de-escalate the situation verbally. But you did nothing wrong, and him even threatening with a bat would have been grounds for you to put his ass 6ft deep.
Could the situation have gone bad? Of course. I've had encounters with baseball bats and probably wouldn't have hesitated to press some iron to the guy's head and told him to drop the bat or there would be consequences. Fine line between a mock charge and a real charge, but do you really think you can afford to differentiate between the two?

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Originally Posted by Cameron

Actually he did say it was dark, I didn't say how late, and in reality the point was not what time it was but just how dangerous to life and liberty the situation OP had put himself in.

Why stay and confront the homeowner at all?

Why not quickly take his friends safely away?

Then the fact that the guy "fake" swings a bat at a friends head!! What if one hadn't been a fake swing that his buddy didn't flinch at. A baseball bat to the head is potentially deadly. It is an insane situation to put yourself in, and it is obvious the OP actually put himself in the situation. I have to say, if someone "fake" swings a baseball bat at my friend's head I really would have thought about fake pulling my gun and fake shooting the guy. Faking a swing at someone's head with a baseball bat is, as I understand it, a justifiable reason for being shot.

I'm all for protecting yourself by whatever means necessary, and I've used firearms both defensively and offensively, but I have also made serious mistakes before, by not making avoiding stupid confrontations a priority.

I'm not going to leap in here and tell the OP he should have capped the guy and it was a righteous shoot! I was simply trying to play the devil's advocate and show that there is another way that the circumstances could have been seen. We don't know if the homeowner was sipping a coke and keeping a watch out for others that may have perpetrated property crimes in the area. There is a lot we don't know. What we do know, from the OP's descriptions, is that he certainly had the opportunity to get out of a potentially bad situation and in staying made it potentially even worse.

Cameron

ETA: I have certainly made some errors in judgement, that put me and those I care about in dangerous situations. I may have even caused trouble that I could have avoided. However, once the situation has become unavoidable and we are in a self defense situation it doesn't really matter how we ended up there it now only matters that we survive.

Cam

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You're still raggin on the OP for putting himself in a bad situation. In the next breath you state you'd grab a gun and confront 2 grown men in the street for kicking a soda can.

WTF, dude? Does that not sound like putting yourself in a bad situation?

I'm not arguing whether what the OP did (actually it was his friend) was smart. Just that you're saying how stupid it was then saying you'd do the same thing.