Caliber debates about pistols are worthless

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tor Larson

Real tough shooting non-living targets that don't shoot back, dodge, move randomly, and want to kill you. Wonder how the expert would do if he was tossed suddenly into a real life situation without a video camera recording his daring exploits to be posted on Youtube? Fear, stress, and adrenaline are game changers-no matter how much practice on the range a person never really knows how they will respond/act/move. Thank the gods that the officer survived. Glad they are out there doing a nasty job.

---

There was a debate 2 yrs ago? here regarding the CCW holder not engaging the shooter across the parking lot.
Cstone did a put up or shut up shhot @ pawnee. The ones who said I could have taken the shot were 90% no shows. Those who did participate , lets say a consistent 65 yd shot with a hand gun was proven to be a bust.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tor Larson

Real tough shooting non-living targets that don't shoot back, dodge, move randomly, and want to kill you. Wonder how the expert would do if he was tossed suddenly into a real life situation without a video camera recording his daring exploits to be posted on Youtube? Fear, stress, and adrenaline are game changers-no matter how much practice on the range a person never really knows how they will respond/act/move. Thank the gods that the officer survived. Glad they are out there doing a nasty job.

---

So no need to practice all then, is what you're saying?

Wait, didn't the special ops guys choose the .45?

Everything about this thread just makes me think of Gabe Suarez's training. He does force on force simunitions training to the maximum extent possible. I don't like everything about him, but I do like his training and gunfighting tactics and techniques.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trot

CHA: What you lack may be wisdom. The missing piece of the puzzle, as Ego is the downfall of many people. You may be USPSA whatever, (irrelevant) but you need some experience in "dealing with the shit of life" before you start jockeying. The stats on this shooting, if true, are very commendable. You're probably going to come back annoyed or inflamed or whatever, but separate yourself from your ego for a minute. Realize the stark fact that there are a lot of people better than you, as there are, worse than you. Either can try to kill you. Also realize that your mind faults you, and you think better of yourself then what reality actually is - the case with everyone, myself included. As to what level this illusion plays out in the individual definitely varies. Your USPSA blah blah applies basically only to USPSA. It doesn't make you terminator. Doing pushups or exercise is no replacement nor true training. Muscle memory is basically all you develop. Law enforcement officers, just like you, with your firearm quals, go two ways when it actually [shithitsfan]. Either they have this officers success, or they have broad side of barn regardless of their ratings, practice, and skills. Really, you don't know until it happens.

---

THIS!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trot

It's clear you do like USPSA as well. If it was the clear training simulator you purport it to be, then the various spec ops teams, IDF, metropolitan police forces, etc. would be using it for their firearms training course. USPSA = competition. Being good at it makes you a good competitor. There is some bleed through, granted, but overconfidence is a big flaw for many a man.

---

And THIS! Want to know what training PDs use that you can try on your own? Barricade shooting, and varying distance shooting... other specialized stuff aside, these are the most common. Oh and good luck getting it except in a class, but also low-light/night shooting. Couldn't tell you what's on an USPSA course.

Its as simple as this.....

No Practice = No Competency

Practice = Competency

More Practice = More Competency

All of the arguments against practicing, or competing in action shooting style shooting sports (USPSA, IPSC, 3Gun, Steel Challenge, ICORE, IDPA, etc) to perfect your pistol craft skills not being "REAL WORLD" skills that can be levered under stress is horse shit. That would be like saying that an MMA fighter is going to magically lose all of his trained fighting skills if he gets involved in a fight on the street. Or a race car driver not being able to leverage his trained driving skills to react to a defensive driving situation while driving home from dinner. Or a competition swimmer not being able to leverage their swimming skills then they get tossed into the water unexpectedly. When the proverbial shit hits the fan everyone reverts to their base level of training or competency with a given skill. If you choose to practice a "Center of mass" competency in shooting accuracy then sure, taking a head shot quickly instead of a center of mass shot may seem like an unreasonable action to perform under stress. If you practice to a point of being able to take a head shot competently, then doing so becomes a valid option to leverage if need be.

I also want to point out the FACT that when police departments or military seek out expert gun craft training they are usually obtaining this from trainers who have extensive experience in the competition shooting sports. The world and national caliber competition shooters are the ones that are usually leveraged for improving police or military gun craft skills.

As for a response to the "You have a false sense of skill or an inflated Ego" comments. If you really knew me, that couldn't be further from the truth. I am a humble guy who chooses to speak out on what I DO know about. I know how to handle and shoot a pistol with an effectiveness that not many other shooters will even be able to fathom is possible much less do. That fact may sound like an egotistical response, but I have earned the right to state that fact because I have put in the time and effort to hone my pistol craft to that level. Anyone can achieve the same level of pistol craft competency if they simply put in the time and effort to do it.

Cha-lee- I didn't hear anyone speaking out or arguing against practice. The point myself and others were making was simply this:
Just because one is good at competitive shooting, doesn't mean he'll do great under a real life shooting situation where his life is on the line.
And actually, there have been studies that boxing/MMA fighters don't fare well all the time in street fights, simple explanation: on the street there are no rules and these fighters are taught to act within the rules. Now that's not saying that they don't do well in bad situations, just like the other examples you gave, they all have their merits, and really can't be compared to competitive shooting versus real life firefight. I've seen it first hand (well kind of)- hardcore, take-no-shit-break-things infantry, super soldiers at the range and MOUT training, expert rifle qualification- go into real combat, with real bullets coming back at them, and they kick up more dirt than a tornado at a construction site. They had the "real world" skills, they just reacted a bit differently when adrenaline and all the physiological symptoms came into play. That's all I'm saying. I'm not doubting your skills as a shooter, you're good, real good, but when bullets come back at you and you are in fear for your life, you might react differently. I've never been in a shootout where I've been in fear for my life, but I know enough that I won't react near-perfect like at the range... I just hope I react well enough to hit the target and come out of it alive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU0wYqRX7Gs Race shirt, race gun, race mags, standing square to your target in ideal weather conditions on a flat range shooting head size poppers - pretty much IDEAL conditions, but yet I still count six misses. Yet you have the nerve to critique an officer involved shooting that occurred after a high speed pursuit, in full duty gear, in a dynamic environment and your confused as to why people think you have an ego?? [dig]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

Everything about this thread just makes me think of Gabe Suarez's training. He does force on force simunitions training to the maximum extent possible. I don't like everything about him, but I do like his training and gunfighting tactics and techniques.

---

Fuck that guy! He's a POS idiot.

I'll throw one other factor in the equation: legislation and their unintended consequences

If you're limited to 15 round mags, and you can't get your hands on 17+ round 9mm mags, but the same firearm is available in 40S&W with 15 rounds, then many will opt for the caliber with highest power available in the maximum capacity available. The advantage that 9mm has with more capacity has been negated.

if you limit someone to 10 rounds, then 45ACP or 10mm becomes more popular- the mentality (right or wrong) is "if I'm going to be limited to 10 rounds, I want the most powerful 10 rounds I can get"

but Rifle/Shotgun > pistol in every case... As the story pointed out, he now keeps his AR in reach (not in the trunk)