Shooter in Portland, Oregon

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Originally Posted by wreave

Not to side-track the thread, but I looked this up, because it's not what I have learned. Apparently, it's a topic of some debate.

My research shows that entering private property which is posted is criminal trespass. The owner does not have to tell you to leave and then call the cops if you don't. The owner can call the cops right away. Whether or not you will be arrested, charged, and prosecuted is a different question. Please raise your wallet if you'd like to be the test case.

What I've heard is that if the owner asks you to leave, do so. Promptly. If the owner calls the cops, stay, get out your cell phone, and take pictures of the entry and any signs which may or may not be posted. What you really don't want to have happen is the owner to call the cops, then go put up a sign while you wait.

Note that in the James Mapes case, the theater into which he open carried was not posted. The simple reason that all charges were dropped against him is that he did not violate any laws.

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I would be curious to see your sources for this.

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Originally Posted by PugnacAutMortem

I would be curious to see your sources for this.

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Wouldn't we all.

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Originally Posted by PugnacAutMortem

I would be curious to see your sources for this.

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Originally Posted by Monky

Wouldn't we all.

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To address the easy one first, the Westword article has the clearest coverage that the theater is NOT posted:
http://blogs.westword.com/latestword..._dismissed.php

Mapes was not arrested for or charged with trespassing, so that case has zero bearing on the topic at hand.

Regarding the broader question of "do 'no gun' signs have the force of law?", your Google probably works as well as mine does. Again, do you want to be the test case? Do you want to see if you get a nice cop who just tells you to leave and tells the owner to chill out, or a cop having a bad day who tosses you in the back of the cruiser? Do you want to be the guy whose attorney is arguing with the DA that you would have been happy to leave if you had been asked to do so?

Keep in mind, the owner may not come talk to to you first. If your weapon is spotted, he may just step into the backroom and dial 911 "MWAG". The first you hear of the concern may be the police putting you up against the wall. As the cop marches you out to the curb, past the sign that says, "No weapons allowed", do you want to try to tell him why the sign didn't apply to you?

Per CRS:

From www.handgunlaw.us:

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Do “No Gun Signs” Have the Force of Law?
“NO”
C.R.S. 18-4-201 As used in this article, unless the context otherwise requires:
(1) "Premises" means any real estate and all improvements erected thereon.www.handgunlaw.us 5
(2) "Separate building" means each unit of a building consisting of two or more units separately secured or
occupied.
(3) A person "enters unlawfully" or "remains unlawfully" in or upon premises when the person is not
licensed, invited, or otherwise privileged to do so. A person who, regardless of his or her intent, enters or
remains in or upon premises that are at the time open to the public does so with license and privilege unless
the person defies a lawful order not to enter or remain, personally communicated to him or her by the owner
of the premises or some other authorized person. A license or privilege to enter or remain in a building that is
only partly open to the public is not a license or privilege to enter or remain in that part of the building that is
not open to the public. Except as is otherwise provided in section 33-6-116 (1), C.R.S., a person who enters
or remains upon unimproved and apparently unused land that is neither fenced nor otherwise enclosed in a
manner designed to exclude intruders does so with license and privilege unless notice against trespass is
personally communicated to the person by the owner of the land or some other authorized person or unless
notice forbidding entry is given by posting with signs at intervals of not more than four hundred forty yards
or, if there is a readily identifiable entrance to the land, by posting with signs at such entrance to the private
land or the forbidden part of the land. In the case of a designated access road not otherwise posted, said
notice shall be posted at the entrance to private land and shall be substantially as follows: "ENTERING
PRIVATE PROPERTYREMAIN ON ROADS".

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"No Guns" signs do not have force of law in Colorado. You can be asked to leave, and if you refuse, you may be charged with 3rd Degree Trespass, a misdemeanor. Which is not to say that the cops can't ruin your day by disarming you, taking you into custody, charging you with disturbing the peace, menacing, etc. Even though the charges don't hold water, they could still conceivably make your life miserable and/or expensive (Mapes). all of that being said, concealed means concealed.

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Originally Posted by wreave

Regarding the broader question of "do 'no gun' signs have the force of law?", your Google probably works as well as mine does.

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No...I think mine must work better. The 1st thing that pops up is the handgunlaws.us website that TFogger quoted. It clearly states that your "research" is incorrect. Which is why I wanted to see your sources. Thanks for being a smartass though.

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Originally Posted by PugnacAutMortem

No...I think mine must work better. The 1st thing that pops up is the handgunlaws.us website that TFogger quoted. It clearly states that your "research" is incorrect. Which is why I wanted to see your sources. Thanks for being a smartass though.

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Originally Posted by TFOGGER

Per CRS:

From www.handgunlaw.us:

"No Guns" signs do not have force of law in Colorado. You can be asked to leave, and if you refuse, you may be charged with 3rd Degree Trespass, a misdemeanor. Which is not to say that the cops can't ruin your day by disarming you, taking you into custody, charging you with disturbing the peace, menacing, etc. Even though the charges don't hold water, they could still conceivably make your life miserable and/or expensive (Mapes). all of that being said, concealed means concealed.

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handgunlaw.us is a great site, and I did find that one. However, their answer is an interpretation. Is it the correct interpretation? Again - do you want to be the test case?

Again, remember the property owner might not ask you to leave. They might just call the cops. Do you want to roll the dice on that?

Of the other top results on Google, the CSSA site is less supportive of your position:
http://www.cssa.org/page.php?12

"How the owner of property chooses to deal with unwanted armed encroachers is entirely his call--he can merely ask the offender to leave, or he can call the police and make a criminal complaint, or he can do BOTH."

Note this opinion is from someone actually in Colorado, with a more focused interest in Colorado law, rather than someone who keeps up a national site with info on 50 states in their spare time.

Most of the other stuff is people talking, like you and I, that don't have a legal background or real information. In this case, handgunlaw.us has made an interpretation of the law that is clearly contrary to the intent of the authors. When the law was written, it was intended that a private property owner have the right to bar armed citizens from his property. I like handgunlaw.us, and appreciate the contribution they have made, but I reserve the right to recognize when they are making an interpretation of the law that might cost me substantial time, hassle, and money if they are wrong.

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Originally Posted by TFOGGER

Per CRS:

From www.handgunlaw.us:

Quote:

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Do “No Gun Signs” Have the Force of Law?
“NO”
C.R.S. 18-4-201 As used in this article, unless the context otherwise requires:
(1) "Premises" means any real estate and all improvements erected thereon.www.handgunlaw.us 5
(2) "Separate building" means each unit of a building consisting of two or more units separately secured or
occupied.
(3) A person "enters unlawfully" or "remains unlawfully" in or upon premises when the person is not
licensed, invited, or otherwise privileged to do so. A person who, regardless of his or her intent, enters or
remains in or upon premises that are at the time open to the public does so with license and privilege unless
the person defies a lawful order not to enter or remain, personally communicated to him or her by the owner
of the premises or some other authorized person. A license or privilege to enter or remain in a building that is
only partly open to the public is not a license or privilege to enter or remain in that part of the building that is
not open to the public. Except as is otherwise provided in section 33-6-116 (1), C.R.S., a person who enters
or remains upon unimproved and apparently unused land that is neither fenced nor otherwise enclosed in a
manner designed to exclude intruders does so with license and privilege unless notice against trespass is
personally communicated to the person by the owner of the land or some other authorized person or unless
notice forbidding entry is given by posting with signs at intervals of not more than four hundred forty yards
or, if there is a readily identifiable entrance to the land, by posting with signs at such entrance to the private
land or the forbidden part of the land. In the case of a designated access road not otherwise posted, said
notice shall be posted at the entrance to private land and shall be substantially as follows: "ENTERING
PRIVATE PROPERTYREMAIN ON ROADS".

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"No Guns" signs do not have force of law in Colorado. You can be asked to leave, and if you refuse, you may be charged with 3rd Degree Trespass, a misdemeanor. Which is not to say that the cops can't ruin your day by disarming you, taking you into custody, charging you with disturbing the peace, menacing, etc. Even though the charges don't hold water, they could still conceivably make your life miserable and/or expensive (Mapes). all of that being said, concealed means concealed.

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This ^

I don't go anywhere locally without my carry, and it is always fairly deep concealed and no print or show allowed. Hell, I even carry it into the doc's office when I know I'm going to have to drop trou. Sadly, my work travel takes me directly to/through anti-gun regions so I can't even check one when I travel, but that doesn't mean I go completely unarmed. Even if I can't check a bag with an EDC knife I can carry at destination, there's always a sharp pointy object within reach.

In other news, FoxNews is flipping retarded... I just saw it for about 10 minutes during lunch today and the whole 10 minutes, they just had a stock photo of a scary-looking AR-15 on the left side of the screen, with the creepy mugshot of the shooter on the right side of the screen while they [presumably] discussed the need for "common sense" gun laws (for the children).