link to those video would be great.
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link to those video would be great.
For the shooting in Ohio?
Don't have a link for a video, I'm sure some google magic can help ya there.
I do have the link to the thread the guy posted on his local gun forum about it...
http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53502
Last post on the first page (bold by me):
Quote:
the gun was a glock model 36. carrying with one in the chamber probably saved my life because i was holding myself in the car with my left hand as they were trying to pull me out of the car no way i could have racked the slide.
Thanks for the link.
I goto OH often to visit my in-laws (Cinn, Dayton).
Glad that I got UT CCW that has recp w/ OH.
[QUOTE=mcantar18c;426634
Also, regarding the "DEFENSIVE situation"... you may not be the one that initiates the attack (as a CCWer, you should never be), but you should always bring the fight to them. Become the predator, make them the prey..[/QUOTE]
WHAT :(
As a CCW holder, you only use deadly force, if you are in defense of a person CRS 18-1-704,
18-1-705 deals with defense of premises
You do not "bring the fight to them" you either engage until the threat is stopped (Fight) or get the hell out of there (Flight)
That quote alone, if you ever actually had to use deadly force just gave the prosecuting attorney enough ammo to get you an easy 3-5
You may be able to bring the fight to them under 18-1-707: use of physical force in making an arrest, or in preventing an escape.
This CRS pertains primarily to LE until you get the the subsections where an LE ask for assistance
Stop the Threat or get the hell out of there. Anything else and you facing a grand jury at the least.
You must be in your teens or 20's reading some of the shit you either believe in or type hyping your macho status. If you're older than that keep you gun at home and take up a job as a school crossing guard, part time.
You ideologue is going to get anyone who listen's to you killed, sooner or later.
Although i think (key word) after you attend Gabe's class you might be one step future away from reality, OR hopefully, come back to the real world.
i would also suggest you have a real good attorney on retainer.
When i was younger i thought the same way, a lot of $K spent here and there kept me from becoming a long time resident of the gray bar hotel. Going from self defense to ADW happens that quickly, as you never know what the witness' "thought" they saw or say after some leading.
Do you know it was densely packed? Do you know that the patrons were close together?Quote:
Originally Posted by mcantar18c
I'll say it again, there's always more air than meat. Use of a full auto selector in a fight is for belt fed weapons or amateurs.
This theory you seem to have about full auto highlights your lack of real experience.
Whether we agreed there or not, in this thread you've criticized both the nutcase with the AK and the small business owner because you seem to think you would have done it better if you were in their shoes.... Here's the rub. You weren't. So you really don't know you just think (or fantasize).Quote:
I'm pretty sure you were one of the only ones that agreed with me in that thread. All common handgun calibers suck, period.
That said, there may be times where you need to shoot through cover (wood, drywall, thin sheet metal, etc.) to stop the threat... and you can easily find multiple cases where shooting through cover is what saved the victims life. A round powerful enough to do that is enough to do the job at 65m (if you do your part).
A .25ACP fired out of a pocket pistol is not one of those rounds.
You think you'd take a high percentage shot at 65yds with your carry pistol? Well cool. Rock on with your bad self. Sharp shooting a man because he didn't? Very, very weak.
Your posts in this thread speak volumes about your ignorance and hubris. That's a very dangerous combination in the real world.
Have a great day.
You misunderstood me. I said that the shooter likely got most of his firearms experience from video games, and that had he had a weapon capable of full auto your average idiot would likely just spray with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick-Boy
Not saying that's the "proper" way to do it, just that somebody with no training or experience isn't likely to have that control.
I don't know it was densely packed, but then again...
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/07/us/07shooting.html
Probably a safe bet.Quote:
The gunman, identified by the police as Eduardo Sencion, 32, began his five-minute shooting rampage around 9 a.m. as people flocked to the restaurant for the breakfast rush.
I'm not criticizing the BBW guy for not taking a shot with his carry gun at 65 yards. I'm criticizing him for not doing anything whatsoever to stop the shooter, especially because (according to him) that decision was made completely based on a lack of confidence in his capabilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick-Boy
I don't think I did misunderstand you. What you said was
Confidence in your abilities is great, but it's amazing how many guys lose that confidence after things get loud in their little corner of the grid square.Quote:
If it was a select-fire, he there would likely be a much higher body count... why select targets when you can mow them all down?
Maybe you should keep your criticism to yourself until you've been in a few similarly unpleasant situations... elbows to the trachea aside of course. BBQ guy came through alive. So if that was his primary objective (and his reason for having a CCW) than he did just fine. If you think you want to be a superhero with yours, go for it. But don't sharp shoot another man because he doesn't see it that way.
What unit did you say you were with again?
I'm still waiting for him to say how old he is, what real life hands on experience he has and so on. Balls to the wall doesn't do shit over the long run in civilian life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick-Boy
[I'm not criticizing the BBW guy for not taking a shot with his carry gun at 65 yards. I'm criticizing him for not doing anything whatsoever to stop the shooter, especially because (according to him) that decision was made completely based on a lack of confidence in his capabilities]
All i have read is your "expert opinion" in numerous post how it should have been done, everyone else's lack of confidence and training blah, blah, blah
I AM BEYOND CALLING BS
What exactly is your pedigree? Whence from doth you speakth.
And one more time exactly how old are you??
After thinking about this off and on since this thread started, after reading all the back and forth, I'm more convinced than ever that BBQ guy (Swagler) did consider shooting Sencion but decided against it. Most likely, for all the right reasons. Consider the first part of this quote:"I wish I had shot at him but he was going in the IHOP," said Swagler, who owns Locals BBQ & Grill. "But when he came at me, when somebody is pointing an automatic weapon at you -- you can't believe the firepower, the kind of rounds coming out of that weapon."
From all accounts I've seen Swagler was saying by the time he figured out what was going on, Sencion was entering the IHOP. Swagler made a conscious decision not to shoot because of Sencion's location...not because he was some kind of coward.
Nothing said in this thread up to this point has caused me to reconsider my position that Swagler did the right thing.
Is it the same thing that everyone else would've done? No. Was it a rational decision based on the circumstances? I'd say, yes, given what we know.
I don't fault him in the slightest. He didn't shoot for the same reason a couple of guys didn't shoot the Tucson shooter. I applaud them for keeping their cool at least enough to analyze the situation and make a rational decision.
So many people on this forum talk about how wrong is is that people with minimal or even no formal training can get permits to carry. How "scary" it is to know that those type of people are out in public carrying a gun.
And then something like this happens and a guy makes what I believe is a sound decision and he's just hammered for it. Now, suddenly, these same people that have little training should be making 65 yard shots at moving targets with innocents all over the place.
Sometimes, you just can't win.
Lets see you post your Age Mccanter.
What about all your super skills. Where did you learn them?
I bet you wont post them. Becuase.......your probable still in highschool and play call of duty everyday.[ROFL1]
No need. He's 20 years old. Which raises into question a particular story he told where he was CCing.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyfairbanks
[Pop][Pop]
Personal attacks? Seriously?
Pretty low, don't ya think?
I've spent a significant amount of my money, sweat, and occasionally blood on training with firearms, knives, H2H, and everything inbetween.
Practice what you preach... those who don't deserve no respect, and I have no intentions of becoming what I despise the most (a hypocrite).
Now back to your regularly scheduled bitchfest.
Nothign i posted would be considered a "personal attack"Quote:
Originally Posted by mcantar18c
You have been called out by me in 2-3 post asking what your pedigree is. No answer from you stating age etc.
I called your Bullshit and no reply. That speaks volume to your background and life history. Step up to the plate and answer my inquiry.Hell pm me and i will not make it public if for some reason you are undercover LE.
Your mouth / keyboard wrote a check you cannot cash.
I would ask the mods to lock this 20 something page post as it will (IMHO) deteriorate way off the OT, some of the post by me included.
This is why I'm not responding to that crap... though I'd say its already gone way off track. If you want to know something about me, you can PM me. This thread is about the importance of training, using TWO examples that showed both sides of the spectrum, with the purpose being to encourage people that carry to get as much training as they can so that they don't end up finding themselves incapable of doing something that they otherwise might have with the proper training.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
As for locking it, if a mod would like to that's up to them, but I see no reason to request that.
Mcantar, you should really watch the Ohio video before you keep talking about it.
Here is the only version I can find. They cut out the fight. I saw the original on here.
As to the lady, if the guy is OUTSIDE, then she isn't in danger from him. Just because he's pounding on the door, doesn't mean he is close to getting in.
Now, in the interest of being fair, I've delivered to some places that have a door so thin, that a single kick would take the whole door down. Perhaps she had one of those shower grade doors and it was only seconds before he was through.
I've seen the video of the Ohio incident. Hard to see what goes on with the roof support in the way, but that quote and link I posted was from the guy involved, and the article I read about it back when it happened had a witness account that also said they were trying to pull him out of the car.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irving
I listened to the recording of the 911 call made by the lady. Armed man outside the glass door, trying to break in, was about to break down the door with a patio chair she had outside when she pulled the trigger. Early on in the conversation the lady says something along the lines of "Ma'am, I don't want to shoot this man, dear God I do not want to shoot him, but I will if I have to." 911 operator responds with "You are within your rights to shoot him if you fear he will get in." Cops were already on the way but of course didn't get there in time.
A slightly off-topic note:
There is precedence in CO for shooting someone outside the home, prior to them making entry, and having it be ruled a Make My Day shooting.
The Colorado Supreme Court has ruled that a front porch is including in the definition of a "dwelling" and people have a right to defend themselves there just like it was in the home.
In a Weld County case, Hammock was upset over his dog being shot with a pellet gun. He suspected Griffin. Hammock armed himself with a 3' long 2x2 and confronted Griffin at Griffin's home. They argued through the door. At some point Hammock used the piece of wood to break a window in the door and Griffin shot him in the chest with a 12 gauge round. Hammock died. Griffin was arrested for 2nd Murder but released after the investigation. The DA cited the MMD law and brought up the fact the Co Supreme Court had previously ruled a front porch was part of the dwelling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irving
in that video i would think that person could have just put the car into drive and get away
Not to beat a dead horse but I've been out of town-
Might be worth your watching - His own words.Quote:
Originally Posted by mcantar18c
he may know TOO much about active shooters with an AK and is obviously too quick to go to guns.
Note- Firearms instructor, who planned on murdering a lot of trained and armed men (that he was already defrauding, plead guilty to it) with pistols. HE took an AK and planned on winning, consider the tactics of your teacher.
Also, CCW guy was under fire from the shooter, no suprise shot, and the situation is impossible to legally duplicate.
I thought your vehicle was an extension of your home, and that is why you can have a ccg with out a ccw. Judging by what you can see in the video it looks like he could have drove off, but we dont know the circumstances he was under. I think he should have held them at Gun point and called 911, apposed to shooting the guy like he did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailey Guns
Your vehicle IS an extension of your home, but not concerning the Make My Day law.
So did that guy get off or is it unknown?Quote:
Originally Posted by Irving
Which guy? The one at the gas station? That happened in Ohio I think. He wasn't charged with anything.
To my knowledge, there is no place in the US where you will get a murder charge for self defense. You may get some other offenses like discharging a firearm, or possession of a firearm, but defending yourself is still legal for now.
I just dont see how he got SD dont get me wrong those guys got what they had coming trying to rob someone, but it looked like he killed the guy while he was on the ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irving
Two guys were attacking him at once, and he shot one of them in the stomach, then they stopped and he drove away. The video I showed is really crappy, they cut out so much you can't see what happens. I don't know if that guy died though. The friend that didn't get shot, posted a ton of updates on Facebook saying how he was going to kill that guy if his friend died, he never forgets a face, blah blah blah.
New info on IHOP incident.
A guy I know has a friend in the Carson City Sheriff Dept. According to him, there was a CCW holder INSIDE the restaurant at the time of the shooting.
He had his weapon, he wasn't shot. He froze from indecision, according to what he told the deputies.
I can't fathom sitting idle and watching a man walk up and start shooting people around you, knowing there's a gun on your hip.
so does anyone have like a wooden stake...
silver bullet?
what will it take?
http://www.tvsa.co.za/forum/images/s...zombie_run.gif
^^^^[LOL] Unfortunately as a super secret mod, I can't do anything about it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyder
Way to blow the undercover part jeez[Coffee]
Someone already let everyone know... Look under my name...Quote:
Originally Posted by DFBrews
That's why it is funny!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by spyder
I once lived next door to a guy that had an uncle who's girlfriend once dated a guy that had a brother who was a priest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byte Stryke
Will that work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailey Guns
was the girlfriend hot and did she put out?
I've got a buddy who has a bronze star for killing five men armed with AKs using only his sidearm.Quote:
Originally Posted by mcantar18c
I can't fathom many people being put in that situation and walking out alive. But then everyone is different.
Monday morning quarterbacking a gunfight on the internet is gay.
What unit are you with again?
I think this is great. It will show people that people who carry guns aren't just out looking for a fight. And that if they want to be protected, to carry their own guns because you can't always rely on other people.