Body-Cam Video Of Daniel Shaver Shooting

*IF* Mr. Shaver would have had a weapon on him, but had not physically got it into play, and it had been concealed in his waistband 6 o'clock, what, I wonder, would the general consensus have been had he still been shot and killed with both his hands empty.

Alternatively what if he had produced a weapon and used it, vs. not been able to use it and still been killed?

I ask these hypotheticals to get a gauge of where people's line in the sand is drawn.

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Originally Posted by MOLON LABE

*IF* Mr. Shaver would have had a weapon on him, but had not physically got it into play, and it had been concealed in his waistband 6 o'clock, what, I wonder, would the general consensus have been had he still been shot and killed with both his hands empty.

Alternatively what if he had produced a weapon and used it, vs. not been able to use it and still been killed?

I ask these hypotheticals to get a gauge of where people's line in the sand is drawn.

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I can see the movement in the video that might have caused someone on edge to shoot.

That said, the whole events as played out are a trainwreck from the beginning - and I'll qualify by stating that my thoughts are not coming from any LE background.

For me, everyone involved was culpable to some degree for that man's unnecessary death.

I understand why many folk here get pissed off when people engage in "cop bashing" ... but videos like this (and the cop's acquittal) make it hard for the average citizen to counter the anti-cop voices out there.

I can't bring myself to defend this officers actions one iota and I certainly hope that he is never allowed to wear a badge again.

Disturbing video. Sad outcome to a non-issue 911 call.

I am not LEO but I can imagine a sense of anxiety when responding to a ' man with a gun ' call. Lots of woulda, coulda shoulda here.

I would be upset over the verdict if I were a family member.

Did they mention the departed victim's race!

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Originally Posted by flogger

Did they mention the departed victim's race!

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Of course not. Otherwise there may have been mayhem in the streets in protest.

(No there wouldn't)

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Originally Posted by foxtrot

Four officers pointing (presumably) AR-15's at him, ready to fire. In the position he is in, the average reaction time to register that he has a gun and to pull the trigger on him several times is significantly shorter than the amount of time he requires to retrieve the gun, rotate his arm forward towards the officers, and pull the trigger.

So if he produced a weapon while crawling and used it before the officers fired on him, I'd want drug tests as their reflexes would be slowed to the point to have questions.

Only when he is standing, with a hand held near the (imaginary gun) position on an (presumably open carry) could he potentially draw and fire on officers who are already aiming at him within margins of (slower) reactions if he had skill.

This is all different when an officer has his weapon holstered and is surprised. But four officers with AR's pointed on you ready to fire before you have a weapon? You've got the same chance to get a wendy's soft serve in hell as you do successfully drawing and staying alive long enough to even get it pointed over there. It isn't hollywood, this is the same reason your chance of drawing a concealed weapon is nill if someone has a gun pointed on you, finger on the trigger, much less four people drawn on you.


ETA: I guess my point is, they had such an advantage in the situation that deescalation and hesitation is appropriate. E.g. shooting because he moves? Not good enough. Shooting because they see a weapon? Justified, and still within the margins to mitigate or altogether eliminate risk to the officers.

If we're talking one officer, with a weapon holstered, and all the sudden the suspect reaches into his wasteband, it would be much more justified for that officer to draw and fire in a panic; because their is a real belief his life is in jeopardy and there wouldn't be the time to hesitate.

Someone crawling on the floor makes a mistake with four AR's pointed at them? Sorry, it's real hard for me to believe the officer had a credible belief of risk to his life in that millisecond - e.g. one where he would lose the tactical advantage or be unable to react to save life. The second a weapon was visible? Sure. But they do have the time in this situation to discern that, where in the former (lone officer, holstered weapon) does not.

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Makes sense, appreciate the response.

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I'm no expert on any of this, and I'm with Brutals assessment of the situation.

The video that I watched shows me an unnecessary death. Pretty clear to me the subject was trying to follow the messed up directions being given....even though he did start crawling on all fours.

This is a shitty shoot IMO....that guy shouldn't have died.

I do feel the directives were confusing and done in an agitated state. We all know, after the fact, the victim was not a threat. But after watching the video a few times the victim was told to keep his hands up more than once. Twice he lowered his hand(s) to behind his back. The first time, he got a "pass", which if there was a time to shoot I feel was then. The second time he paid with his life. I'm starting to feel, maybe, the shoot was good but what lead up to it was a fucked-up mess.

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Originally Posted by MOLON LABE

*IF* Mr. Shaver would have had a weapon on him...

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*IF* Michael Brown actually had his hands up and hadn't robbed a bodega ...