Legal impacts of 1224 on FFL dealer firearm inventory

I know this bill is as clear as mud, but am wondering if there is any sort of consensus yet on this, given how it will affect the availability of the actual firearms themselves.

Post July 1, will Colorado FFL dealers be able to receive guns from distributors containing 15+rd magazines? (In this case, assume they would immediately destroy/dispose of said magazine, selling only the firearm itself)?

It speaks repeatedly about "a person" being restricted from possession and sale, etc. but does not appear to include or exclude a business or licensed dealer.

Related - does an FFL's status at all meet this exception criteria?

a) A DEPARTMENT, AGENCY, OR POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THE
6 STATE OF COLORADO, ANY OTHER STATE, OR THE UNITED STATES
7 GOVERNMENT; OR

As posted in numerous threads they will ship guns with 10 rd mags. Just like they use to. Or some mfg with figure out a way to make the floor plate fixed.

Thanks Jim, I definitely understand there are low-capacity compliant firearms available, and probably more configs will be made. And I've read enough about the readily-convertible issue to know that's a cluster itself.

What I'm specifically interested in - especially with hard to get guns, can I as an FFL receive a firearm with a standard-capacity mag? For example, Davidson's doesn't currently carry the SCAR 17S package with the 10rd mag, only the 20. So I can't order a SCAR 17s (at least not from them) at all, unless they're willing to unbox and pull the mag out for me? Or as an FFL, am I able to receive the box, separate the mag, and sell the gun to a customer without it?

I'm assuming that, unless all LE customers are going to start buying direct from the manufacturers, there has to be an expectation that an FFL can receive magazines of any size, and apply the (stupid) laws as appropriate for the customer.

If this has been covered, I apologize. I did look but didn't find anything...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brian

If this has been covered, I apologize. I did look but didn't find anything...

---

Some of us actually do other things than read discussion board posts all day.... Hard to know every conversation that's been had, or sometimes even where to find it!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brian

Thanks Jim, I definitely understand there are low-capacity compliant firearms available, and probably more configs will be made. And I've read enough about the readily-convertible issue to know that's a cluster itself.

What I'm specifically interested in - especially with hard to get guns, can I as an FFL receive a firearm with a standard-capacity mag? For example, Davidson's doesn't currently carry the SCAR 17S package with the 10rd mag, only the 20. So I can't order a SCAR 17s (at least not from them) at all, unless they're willing to unbox and pull the mag out for me? Or as an FFL, am I able to receive the box, separate the mag, and sell the gun to a customer without it?

I'm assuming that, unless all LE customers are going to start buying direct from the manufacturers, there has to be an expectation that an FFL can receive magazines of any size, and apply the (stupid) laws as appropriate for the customer.

If this has been covered, I apologize. I did look but didn't find anything...

---

As an FFL i doubt it, unless it's LE specific like the LE Glock program. I contacted magpul about LE only sales for FFL's. They replied NO exceptions for CO or other states with Magazine Capacity bans. Granted they are not firearm mfg's. but that was one reply.

This was not just a mag ban, it was a backdoor gun ban. Pure and simple.

As far as we've (the dealer where I work) been able to figure out, the local cops do not and will not give two damns about the law. They can't even figure out which mags fit the law's definition. Currently, neither can the ATF who just so happened to say they WOULD enforce the state law when we called them and asked. They also related they currently don't have a fucking clue as to which mags will fall into the category of less than 15 but illegal due to the extension clause. They are supposed to have some sort of letter going out next month concerning 1224, but they won't state what the letter is going to cover.

So, the nutshell version is nobody has a god-damned clue and the ATF is going to stick their finger in it and make it worse. And to top off this crap-pie, I suspect the CO Sheriff's Org is going to file suit against the law on 1 July and the law could end up being suspended until all the court room stuff is done. Then again, the court room stuff might sit and stagnate for 2 years and nothing get done.

Clear as mud, right...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SA Friday

They also related they currently don't have a fucking clue as to which mags will fall into the category of less than 15 but illegal due to the extension clause.

Clear as mud, right...

---

Obviously, clear as mud and still to be determined, but those of you FFLs or working at one placing orders.....

(I've never seen one) - do typical 10rd "California Mags" have secured, non-removeable baseplates?

I guess what I'm wondering is if you have a firearm that "standard capacity" is > 15 rounds, you'll get a 10, right? And that would make sense if they don't make a 15rd mag for the firearm.
What if "standard capacity" IS somewhere between 10 and 15 rounds? If a 10rd magazine has a removeable baseplate, why is that better than a 15 with same baseplate?
I guess if the 10rd mag baseplate doesn't come off, the question is moot.

In other words, your new G17 comes with a 10, but your G19/20/22 comes with a 10 or a 15?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Lebowski

Obviously, clear as mud and still to be determined, but those of you FFLs or working at one placing orders.....

(I've never seen one) - do typical 10rd "California Mags" have secured, non-removeable baseplates?

I guess what I'm wondering is if you have a firearm that "standard capacity" is > 15 rounds, you'll get a 10, right? And that would make sense if they don't make a 15rd mag for the firearm.
What if "standard capacity" IS somewhere between 10 and 15 rounds? If a 10rd magazine has a removeable baseplate, why is that better than a 15 with same baseplate?
I guess if the 10rd mag baseplate doesn't come off, the question is moot.

In other words, your new G17 comes with a 10, but your G19/20/22 comes with a 10 or a 15?

---

As I understand it, we'll be treated like CA... 10 round for any weapon that has CA compliant magazines... All your Glocks will now be shipped to CO with 10 rounders and it won't have on the box "Not legal for sale in CA" or "For LE/Mil use only." That's just coming from what one of the FFLs I know has expected to start seeing when he get orders shipped in. I imagine there will be a firesale on all existing inventory the next two months so no FFLs will have NIB guns with "high capacity" magazines. My praying knees are starting to hurt from all these prayers being sent to have the law overturned in court or something like that.

Most CA mags still have removable baseplates, but they all have some form of impediment internally to stop them from being extended or fitting more than 10 rounds. I've found most factory Beretta mags for the 92s are crimped to not allow extension and are 15 rounders. Some mags simply don't have any way of extending them currently on the market even though they can be disassembled. Some have the ability to be extended with current market extenders, but they are questionable. i.e. an Arrendondo will work on a Glock 26 mag, but there are no springs for this change and that 16th round is going to be a crazy screaming bitch to get in there. Does this count? Who knows...

Ronin's evaluation of what will come is pretty accurate. We will all see what the future brings.

I imagine most of the distributors will avoid any problems and just refuse to sell certain products to Colorado like they do California and other states.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ray1970

I imagine most of the distributors will avoid any problems and just refuse to sell certain products to Colorado like they do California and other states.

---

CA is a whole different animal gun wise. There they require any firearm sold to be CADOJ compliant= No threaded bbls (for anything) internal lock, mag safety, 10 rd mags. bs, bs, bs.

Weirdest thing about CA (OK 1 weird thing) Is they can buy mag rebuild kits, the vendors will ship them mag rebuild kits, BUT they cannot buy a complete mag that holds more than 10rds[facepalm]

Our daughter lives there. When she' in town, she always manages to scam another gun off us??? Upon return to CA she fills out a form to declare family owned gun "Gift" and she's GTG

I am going to launch a new product: .458 socom magazine to go with my .458 socom rifle. Mag's will be available, marked .458 socom...... Anyone know what kind of mag holds the .458 socom? 10 of em single stack?

Still waiting for attorney review and approval......

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SA Friday

Most CA mags still have removable baseplates, but they all have some form of impediment internally to stop them from being extended or fitting more than 10 rounds.

---

Good Lord, I didn't even realize this.
So, now I'm trying to anticipate what firearms I may want in the future, to buy a couple of magazines for now. Unbelievable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jim

Weirdest thing about CA (OK 1 weird thing) Is they can buy mag rebuild kits, the vendors will ship them mag rebuild kits, BUT they cannot buy a complete mag that holds more than 10rds[facepalm]

---

Yeah, this one kills me. I was shocked when a coworker told me about it. Basically, you can ship the entire thing in one package, as long as it is taken apart is my understanding of how they do their transactions there.


BUT, speaking of your "gift" - what does this bill say upon death if we aren't allowed to transfer?
They need to be turned over to "the state?"

There are already mag bans in other states and manufacturers ship guns to these states all the time. They will just put a smaller mag in the box or no mag at all, nothing confusing about that.. Not sure why it is hard to understand. Any guns in inventory will be sold with smaller mags and the "high capacity" mags will be sold off online to out of state customers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Lebowski

Yeah, this one kills me. I was shocked when a coworker told me about it. Basically, you can ship the entire thing in one package, as long as it is taken apart is my understanding of how they do their transactions there.

---

Colorado learned of this loophole and added language that you cannot "assemble" a mag after July 1st either thus eliminating the rebuild kit loophole.

Quote:

---

BUT, speaking of your "gift" - what does this bill say upon death if we aren't allowed to transfer?
They need to be turned over to "the state?"

---

They will not be able to be transferred and will have to be sold out of state or destroyed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Lebowski

Good Lord, I didn't even realize this.
So, now I'm trying to anticipate what firearms I may want in the future, to buy a couple of magazines for now. Unbelievable.

---

This is whatI was talking about with the mag bans really being gun bans. Not all guns will have a smaller mag available. Really, a 10/15rd UZI?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hound

This is whatI was talking about with the mag bans really being gun bans. Not all guns will have a smaller mag available. Really, a 10/15rd UZI?

---

The 10 rd mags are available for almost every gun mfg. Anyone remember the Steyr SPP with 10 rd mags?

http://www.remtek.com/arms/steyr/spp/spp.htm

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Lebowski

Good Lord, I didn't even realize this.
So, now I'm trying to anticipate what firearms I may want in the future, to buy a couple of magazines for now. Unbelievable.

---

That's what I've been doing the last 2 months.. AK47 and 74 mags, M14 mags M1 Carbine, AR and so on.. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by def90

That's what I've been doing the last 2 months.. AK47 and 74 mags, M14 mags M1 Carbine, AR and so on.. :D

---

yyyyyyep

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Lebowski

Good Lord, I didn't even realize this.
So, now I'm trying to anticipate what firearms I may want in the future, to buy a couple of magazines for now. Unbelievable.



Yeah, this one kills me. I was shocked when a coworker told me about it. Basically, you can ship the entire thing in one package, as long as it is taken apart is my understanding of how they do their transactions there.


BUT, speaking of your "gift" - what does this bill say upon death if we aren't allowed to transfer?
They need to be turned over to "the state?"

---

Transfer What? The .state has no idea what, if anything, i have now. How can they say X was transferred after 7/1/13 ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jim

Weirdest thing about CA (OK 1 weird thing) Is they can buy mag rebuild kits, the vendors will ship them mag rebuild kits, BUT they cannot buy a complete mag that holds more than 10rds[facepalm]

Our daughter lives there. When she' in town, she always manages to scam another gun off us??? Upon return to CA she fills out a form to declare family owned gun "Gift" and she's GTG

---

Except for violating GCA 1968 by acquiring firearms outside her state of residence, from a non-FFL...?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Circuits

Except for violating GCA 1968 by acquiring firearms outside her state of residence, from a non-FFL...?

---

Her gun returning to CA. CA has some exemption for LE's , she fills out a CADOJ form attached payment and GTG.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Circuits

Except for violating GCA 1968 by acquiring firearms outside her state of residence, from a non-FFL...?

---

Circuits is correct there. But, if there is a death in the family and the deceased family member owned the particular firearm and it is willed to the out of State recipient, then there should be no problem so long as the firearm is legal for the heir to receive/own in his/her particular State (from what I remember).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by def90

That's what I've been doing the last 2 months.. AK47 and 74 mags, M14 mags M1 Carbine, AR and so on.. :D

---

Yep, here too. I know several guys who are buying mags and writing up legal letters saying they have "sold" them to their children too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jim

Transfer What? The .state has no idea what, if anything, i have now. How can they say X was transferred after 7/1/13 ?

---

I don't have kids. My wife isn't pregnant. We're unlikely to ever have kids, but if we did, they'd clearly be born well after 7/1/13.
Even though the state has no idea what, if anything, I have now - they'll know my [unborn] kids sure didn't have it prior to 7/1/13. So the only way they'd get to inherit anything (legally) would be if they moved out of state, right?
That's sort of where I'm going with this. I sort of know the answers to all this, as unclear as it all is for now - these are just thinly veiled complaints disguised as questions. And so, I'm now busy collecting receipts until 7/1/13, despite where the burden of proof falls. Bad for us, much worse for the next generation if this isn't reversed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jim

Her gun returning to CA. CA has some exemption for LE's , she fills out a CADOJ form attached payment and GTG.

---

Cool.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Lebowski

I don't have kids. My wife isn't pregnant. We're unlikely to ever have kids, but if we did, they'd clearly be born well after 7/1/13.
Even though the state has no idea what, if anything, I have now - they'll know my [unborn] kids sure didn't have it prior to 7/1/13. So the only way they'd get to inherit anything (legally) would be if they moved out of state, right?
That's sort of where I'm going with this. I sort of know the answers to all this, as unclear as it all is for now - these are just thinly veiled complaints disguised as questions. And so, I'm now busy collecting receipts until 7/1/13, despite where the burden of proof falls. Bad for us, much worse for the next generation if this isn't reversed.

---

Contact NFATrustGuy, he may have a viable solution for you.

Reading all this made me depressed. I have stocked up over the last two months to last to a hopeful political change in 2014 or to get me to 2017 when I can retire and move out of state. I recommend that if you dont own a particular firearm but want to own down the road buy the mags now. I am pretty confident my stash could last a lifetime and my mags could be used for future M1As, ars, aksm, etc. However I will be sad when the next uninvented pistol or rifle comes out. Good news dont see Glock, S&W changing their mag layout so I have planned accordingly and will always be ready for the gen 5 Glocks. Hears hoping for a good 2014 and some recalls this yearr

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Kidicarus13. Mr. Lebowski and I have exchanged PMs.

Here's the thread where I gave my opinion of "large" capacity magazines held in Trusts:

http://www.ar-15.co/threads/97945-Tr...-Anti-Gun-Laws

RWW

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hound

This was not just a mag ban, it was a backdoor gun ban. Pure and simple.

---

ding ding ding...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by battle_sight_zero

Reading all this made me depressed. I have stocked up over the last two months to last to a hopeful political change in 2014 or to get me to 2017 when I can retire and move out of state. I recommend that if you dont own a particular firearm but want to own down the road buy the mags now. I am pretty confident my stash could last a lifetime and my mags could be used for future M1As, ars, aksm, etc. However I will be sad when the next uninvented pistol or rifle comes out. Good news dont see Glock, S&W changing their mag layout so I have planned accordingly and will always be ready for the gen 5 Glocks. Hears hoping for a good 2014 and some recalls this yearr

---

Here's the other thing...My credit card now has 9k on it...so be careful...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by buckshotbarlow

Here's the other thing...My credit card now has 9k on it...so be careful...

---

Eh, it's only money (someone else's)

It will be very interesting to see what is available in July, seems the only way to get it going initially is to offer 10 rds for anything that is normally > 15. Glock is probably not going to manufacture a "special" 15 round G17 mag just for CO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by buckshotbarlow

Here's the other thing...My credit card now has 9k on it...so be careful...

---

Good point, I think we all have this problem!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shiro

It will be very interesting to see what is available in July, seems the only way to get it going initially is to offer 10 rds for anything that is normally > 15. Glock is probably not going to manufacture a "special" 15 round G17 mag just for CO.

---

I want to get a G17 later this year- so I just ordered some mags- I just hope Brownells gets them in stock prior to July and ships them, otherwise.... [Peep]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ronin13

I want to get a G17 later this year- so I just ordered some mags- I just hope Brownells gets them in stock prior to July and ships them, otherwise.... [Peep]

---

I did this with G20 mags. Just to get the receipt. Unbelievable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ronin13

I want to get a G17 later this year- so I just ordered some mags- I just hope Brownells gets them in stock prior to July and ships them, otherwise.... [Peep]

---

Centerfire Systems has them in stock for about $30 a pop.

So if I die my wife cannot get my XD with 16 round mags?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Superorb

So if I die my wife cannot get my XD with 16 round mags?

---

The way the law is written, it could be interpreted that you would be in violation if you left the house to go get groceries, left your magazines there and she stayed home. It's basically an open door to prosecute anyone who owns a gun that takes magazines, at the discretion of the DA.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD