14in PGO shotgun

Can someone enlighten me on this
http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=88

The 14″ Mossberg 500 That ISN’T NFA!

I get a lot of questions from customers about the “new” ATF ruling regarding pistol-grip-only (PGO) firearms with 14″ barrels that aren’t considered NFA items.Well, first off, let me say, it’s not a new ruling. It’s the same position that ATF has always taken regarding PGO firearms that fire a fixed shotgun shell that have NEVER had a buttstock attached to them—they’re NOT shotguns! They’re simply firearms. As such, they don’t necessarily need to have 18″+ barrels on them to remain out of the purview of the NFA.You see, the very definition of a “shotgun” requires that it be “designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder…” Without a buttstock ever having been fitted to the PGO firearms in question, they can’t be fired from the shoulder and are therefore not shotguns. Hence, with a 14″ barrel, they can’t be considered short-barreled shotguns, as they aren’t shotguns to begin with. Read the full definition of a shotgun here.PGO firearms that remain longer than 26″ in overall length also can’t be defined as AOWs. That’s because the term “any other weapon” (AOW) means “any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person…” And ATF maintains that to be concealed, the firearm needs to be shorter than 26″. Read the full definition of an AOW here.More on the subject is available in these two letters to Len Savage—the guy who will be making a lot of these non-NFA firearms in the coming months and years:July 20, 2010 letter from NFA Tech Branch to Mr. Len SavageOctober 27, 2010 letter from NFA Tech Branch to Mr. Len SavagePage 1 of third letterPage 2 of third letterAll that said, I’m not a firearms attorney. And I’m not offering legal advice here. I am simply relating things the way I understand them. Be sure you check with all the appropriate agencies.Now, a pistol-grip-only Mossberg 500 with a 14″ barrel and the Raptor Grip installed measures 26.5″ in overall length (measured parallel to the bore).–Marty

Looks painful to shoot. I don't see why the ATF wont pull out the 'can be readily converted to' language to kill this if they want to.

AOW is still an NFA weapon, as far as I know. The difference is that the tax stamp is $5 instead of $200. Maybe Alan from MGT can confirm this for us.

Aprently this is not considerd an AOW. Not really NFA is how I read it.

This is NFA. If the barrel is less than 18 inches, and it never had a shoulder stock on it, it is an AOW. If the barrel is less than 18 inches, and it did have a shoulder stock on it, it is a SBS (short barreled shotgun). I have a Tac Innovations "Super Shorty" and it transfered as an AOW.

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Originally Posted by RYAN50BMG

This is NFA. If the barrel is less than 18 inches, and it never had a shoulder stock on it, it is an AOW. If the barrel is less than 18 inches, and it did have a shoulder stock on it, it is a SBS (short barreled shotgun). I have a Tac Innovations "Super Shorty" and it transfered as an AOW.

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Looks NFA to me. Or i paid a $5. tax for nothing on this Factory 590.
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...m/100_0757.jpg

The way I read that is if you buy a shotgun from the factory with a pistol grip and not a stock you can cut the barrel down to 14in and not have to go the NFA route as long as the overall length is over 26in. Now if you take a 590 or 500 and take the stock off then put a pistol grip you have to them go NFA.

I don't believe that to be true. ^^ Good way to find yourself reconstructing Ruby Ridge though.

The same thing with Tommy Gun pistol with forward grip.. The overall length is longer than 26", then per BATF, it is not AOW nor SBR.

This has been confirmed multiple times by ATF. That link also has the ATF letter.

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Originally Posted by Irving

I don't believe that to be true. ^^ Good way to find yourself reconstructing Ruby Ridge though.

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In this case, he is correct. 26" LENGTH is the key.. as by Fed definition then it's not 'concealed able.'

http://www.franklinarmory.com/XO-26_Letter__c_.pdf

Read the last paragraph. :)

I thought the gun had to meet BOTH conditions of:
1) the barrel must be at least 18"
2) the overall length must be at least 26"
In order to not be classified as NFA.

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Originally Posted by Irving

I thought the gun had to meet BOTH conditions of:
1) the barrel must be at least 18"
2) the overall length must be at least 26"
In order to not be classified as NFA.

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Not on PGO.. 26" or over, you are ok with lesser 18" barrel. But since any kind of legal action will bankrupt most of us despite of being right - that $5 AOW looks so damn cheap and less risky :)

Does there exist a shotgun with a barrel less than 18" that is shorter than 26" long though?"?

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Originally Posted by Irving

Does there exist a shotgun with a barrel less than 18" that is shorter than 26" long though?"?

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Yeah... next time you go to Jim, ask him to touch his black mamba! [Flower] In fact, He posted a picture of it above. It's harder to find sbs w/ >26" OAL

I'm resurrecting this thread because there are postings on another forum that Mossberg has started to deliver their Shockwave weapons. Not in Colorado that I have heard though. Has anyone heard of any local Colorado lawyer opinions on whether they are legal here? I don't think they are the way I read statutes.

I'm curious because it might be fun to make one just for kicks.

To be safe, I think everyone on the forum should write the ATF for further clarification....

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Originally Posted by hurley842002

To be safe, I think everyone on the forum should write the ATF for further clarification....

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GROUP LETTER !

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Originally Posted by Great-Kazoo

GROUP LETTER !

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"On behalf of COAR15"


Disclaimer: I keed I keed.

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Originally Posted by SAnd

I'm resurrecting this thread because there are postings on another forum that Mossberg has started to deliver their Shockwave weapons. Not in Colorado that I have heard though.

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FB posts show Dragonman in CS has them in stock and for sale.

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Originally Posted by hurley842002

To be safe, I think everyone on the forum should write the ATF for further clarification....

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Maybe we should get together for "Further Clarification Letter Party" sorta like a "Build Party". We could all lick stamps together while singing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZk0RdzDrVs

Just joking. Except for the song.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SAnd

Maybe we should get together for "Further Clarification Letter Party" sorta like a "Build Party". We could all lick stamps together while singing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZk0RdzDrVs

Just joking. Except for the song.

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Unfortunately there's probably 1-2 doz people already submitting their letters. With the usual debate[s] on other forums why they are doing so.

Seems to me if it doesn't fall within the definitions as specifically given for NFA, it becomes a "firearm". For example, if I throw my SPR upper on my pistol lower. It's not a "pistol" or "SBR" length upper, so it's either a firearm, or simply a pistol, regardless.

If the PGO doesn't meet the onus of AOW or SBS, it's simply a firearm.

Unless you add a buttstock or a VFG, It'll still be considered a pistol regardless of barrel length...or firearm if you're that's what tickles your fancy.

Right, but it's not some special thing requiring a $5 stamp.

Somebody posted a vid of a couple guys running this thing vs a standard shotgun, I'll pass on the blunderbuss grip! I honestly didn't know there was an exemption based on OAL until I saw that video and wondered whyTF somebody would want that thing over a standard pistol grip (or a PGO at all)

In my youth I played around with a pistol gripped shotgun. Decided pretty quick it was pretty much useless compared to most firearms. Kind of like a shotgun version of a Tec-9 or a Mac-10. I have zero interest in Mossberg's latest offering or anything similar.

I wonder if I can get that grip for my .300 blkout pistol...

Seeing them for sale at other gun stores in the area now.

Bunch of Nancy's around here! I pick mine up from my FFL tomorrow...[UZI]

KSG is 26" overall, 14+1.
Just saying...

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Originally Posted by Graves

Somebody posted a vid of a couple guys running this thing vs a standard shotgun, I'll pass on the blunderbuss grip! I honestly didn't know there was an exemption based on OAL until I saw that video and wondered whyTF somebody would want that thing over a standard pistol grip (or a PGO at all)

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You would be surprised at how comfortable they are to shoot. I have an SBS, and I've put a variety of pistol grips and stocks on it. The birdshead is the most comfortable of all the pistol grips I've tried. It requires you to take a different grip on the gun, and transmits recoil along your whole forearm instead of just the wrist. If one really wants a PGO shotgun, this is probably the grip to have.

http://www.johnnyego.com/firearms/fr...016decrd31.JPG

As long as you don't run anything stupid, and use a little bit of technique, they are quite controllable, and quite the conversation starter at the range.
I run Federal's low recoil LE132 #00 and LE127 RS, and neither is a wrist killer.

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Originally Posted by bellavite1

KSG is 26" overall, 14+1.
Just saying...

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And also $800 but I do see your point.

I got mine picked up on Saturday. Initial impressions are it's pretty neat and well sized. I'll try to get it out next weekend to run some shells through it. I'm happy with the way it handles out of the box. For $350, it's a good buy.

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Originally Posted by JohnnyEgo

You would be surprised at how comfortable they are to shoot. I have an SBS, and I've put a variety of pistol grips and stocks on it. The birdshead is the most comfortable of all the pistol grips I've tried. It requires you to take a different grip on the gun, and transmits recoil along your whole forearm instead of just the wrist. If one really wants a PGO shotgun, this is probably http://www.johnnyego.com/firearms/fr...016decrd31.JPGthe grip to have.


As long as you don't run anything stupid, and use a little bit of technique, they are quite controllable, and quite the conversation starter at the range.
I run Federal's low recoil LE132 #00 and LE127 RS, and neither is a wrist killer.

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Originally Posted by SouthPaw

And also $800 but I do see your point.

I got mine picked up on Saturday. Initial impressions are it's pretty neat and well sized. I'll try to get it out next weekend to run some shells through it. I'm happy with the way it handles out of the box. For $350, it's a good buy.

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This mossy is a street version of the Fed's 14" ATF 870 Special. SP when you get a chance come by we'll road test your new toy. Have a local place to short range shoot

Birdshead grips are about the only way to use a PGO shotgun without it sucking.

I tried one on my 870 SBS and it was night and day from the Pachmeyer PG that sucked bad.

I went back to a normal stock, but the Birdshead option is an excellent one.