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I have only hunted with a bolt gun in Colorado, and was looking a maybe getting a lever gun in .357 for hunting mule deer. I went to Sportsmans and the guy behind the counter said I can't "needs to be a .243 or bigger" is this right? I thought it just needed to be bigger that a .22 cal bullet. I looked on the DOW web site and can't find anything.
It's there. 357 hunting rounds are legal. Look at the muzzle energy and retained energy on the box of ammo. I believe 357 makes the cut with good ammo.
Since when is .357 not bigger than .243?
To be clear though, it does qualify with the correct velocity ammo.
- Center fire rifles, 24 caliber (6mm) or larger and produce an impact energy of 1000 ft/lbs at 100yds. Barrel must be at least 16" and total length at least 26".
- Muzzle loaders for elk hunting must be 50 caliber or larger and only open sights are allowed.
- Electronic ignitions are not legal for muzzle loading season in Colorado.
- Shotguns must be 20 gauge or larger with 18" or longer barrel and minimum 26" total length.
- Handguns, 24 caliber (6mm) or larger and produce an impact energy of 550 ft/lbs at 50 yards as rated by the manufacturer. Four inches is minimum length for handgun barrels.
that being said the .357 does not have enough energy to be legal according to the chart below from the hornady website.
Rifle (18" Barrel) Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
MUZZLE 1850/1064
100 1458/660
whats more interesting here is that a gunstore employee was right about something....
thanks guys
I've found that to be pretty common at the gunstore counters I've worked at.Quote:
Originally Posted by car-15
there are a few, very few. and almost never are they at the "chain" type stores, most of them I compare to used car salesmen, just there to make the sale no matter what un substantiated trash they spew.Quote:
Originally Posted by SA Friday
The .357 Magnum is legal for big game in Colorado from a handgun only with a very long barrel and certain higher performance loads. Most factory loads are not legal for big game in handguns. Last time I looked at ballistics charts, the .357 Magnum in a lever rifle was not legal not because of bullet diameter (which indeed must be .243 or 6mm or larger) because of a lack of energy (1,000 ft lbs at 100 yards as mentioned above). The difference between the two requirements confuses people.
^^^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Irving
Hard cast buffalo bore 357 mag will keep 1000 ft-lb out to 100 yards out of a lever. This is dependent on barrel length though. There's probably several other loads out there too.
My question in all this is why? Even if you can find a load that hits the min. requirements why error on that side of things and risk wounding animals and loosing them due to not having enough knock down power?
which is why I use a .375 h&h for deer hunting, even if I miss they die of a heart attack, j/k. I ask myself the same question whenever this subject comes up, thats usually when they tell you how they qualified expert and can kill a moose with a .22 lr because its all about shot placement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trout Hunter
I don't get it. Unless you're the type of hunter that can be right in an animals back pocket and not take the shot because you didn't get the exact shot you need ( think archery type scenario) I don't believe in the small knock down power route hunters take. Ill be the first one to pull out my .45 colt that it loaded extremely aggressive when I get into 50 yard and less woods range. But I know past 50/60 yards with that gun as hot as I load it I won't take a shot with it and I feel fairly comfortable out to 100 yards with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by car-15
Toeing the minimum line isn't (IMO) the route to go when hunting and going for a quick clean kill. Rather be a little over gunned than under gunned any day of the week.
The reason "why" varies by the hunter. Some want to challenge themselves with equipment that imposes some limits. Others just want the fun of taking game with a favored firearm.
Others just figure that if they are going to get skunked in the woods, might as well carry the lightest gun to get skunked with ...[Coffee]
The legal minimums are not particular guarantee of adequate power, just a set of rules for us to work within.
I generally tend to agree with you and am all for ethical kills. However, this is one of the hunting world's oldest pissing matches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trout Hunter
I've seen many whitetails dropped very cleanly with pistol and rifle cartridges that have energy levels falling well below the CO state minimum. Often the energy numbers are rather arbitrary. Energy just needs to dissipate into the animal.
Consider bow hunting where the typical arrow energy may be on the order of 50 to 70 ft-lb. Typically all of the energy is dissipated into the animal unless the arrow passes through. Often the animals simply bleed out due to massive wounding.
Consider a high velocity rifle like a 220 swift. A 60 gr bullet has well over 2000 ft-lb of energy but would likely pass straight through a deer imparting very little energy. Hunters just don't use them for deer for this reason (and min caliber reqs).
Consider now the 357 as so debated in this thread. If you have the right bullet expansion in the kill zone, often the bullet will be found on the inside of the skin opposite to the point of impact, thus imparting all 500 to 1000 ft-lb into the animal (depending on distance). The results are superior to either case presented above.
If a hunter doubts their ability with a certain round, they should step up. I personally find it very convenient to carry a light weapon in the woods and won't take an unethical shot. There's a lot of other hunters that unfortunately lack in ability and/or restraint when faced with that challenging and ethical shot.
I carried a lever .357 for elk one year. If there was going to be a shot, it was going to be less than 50 yards, probably under 30 yards. I was stopped by a game warden for a license check, and he asked about the rifle. I told him it was a 357, he asked if they were factory loads. I told him no. He never said anything else about it. I never fired a shot, and now I carry a 45-70 guide gun in that area. It is almost as light, with a touch more knock down power.
If you already owned the gun it would be a little different. If you are going to go out and buy the gun for this reason, why handicap yourself? Why not buy a 44mag or a gun chambered in a rifle round?