Zero shift from skim bedding

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11-18-2013, 15:55
Tim K

Zero shift from skim bedding

I'm still not sure I believe it. I bought a new stock for my little Savage .22 trainer a few weeks ago. It's walnut (looks like an AICS) and decently made. There was initially no change in zero from my old Tacticool, and that zero was years old. My confidence in that zero was 100%.

I skim bedded the action into the stock and painted it last weekend because I had nothing better to do. I didn't bother to check zero, assuming it wouldn't change. When I shot it at the .22 side match at last Saturday's PD match, I could barely hit the dirt. It was driving me nuts, so I took it out this afternoon to see if the zero had changed.

Unbelievably, it was shooting .9 mils high at 100 yards. Windage was good. I'm torquing the action more than before, so maybe something really did change. Accuracy was still good as it's grouping 5 into 3/4" at 100. If I'd had more ammo and my torque wrench, I might have tried some different values to see if I could get it to wander around.

Anyone else ever seen a change this large from something this minor?
11-18-2013, 21:37
BPTactical

Yes Tim and I would suspect the torque is your causative factor. The role of the bedding is to provide a stress free 100% contact between the receiver and stock.
A 1/4x28 screw torqued to 56 in/lbs equates to over 1500 lbs of clamping force.
As a result it doesn't take much torque to hold the action securely.
If the torque is excessive or uneven it can certainly cause a shift due to stressing the action.
You mentioned painting, did you paint the bedding? Any paint there will compromise the fit between the bedding and action.
11-18-2013, 21:58
Tim K

I did indeed paint the bedding. There also just isn't much area that can be bedded, so there's not a lot of contact.

I backed the torque down from 25 in-lb to 20 in-lb. The rear screw in particular continues to tighten after contact is made between the action and the stock. Something is moving. I'd never bothered with a torque wrench before bedding the action, but I know I was using much less. As soon as it felt snug, I quit.

I should investigate to see what it is that compressing and either try to fix it or just reduce the torque value. I should also try un-torquing and retorquing the action bolts to the same 20 in-lb and see if the zero continues to move. Or maybe I'll just never take it out of the stock again...

Any other ideas, Bert?
11-18-2013, 23:23
BPTactical

Is it pillar bedded?
11-19-2013, 07:06
Tim K

Sort of. The action has some pillars, but I don't think they touch anything. I'll post up some pics when it's not 5 AM.
11-19-2013, 19:27
Madusa

Are you upset that your zero moved that much? Maybe I'm old school but I would rezero and go to work.:)
11-20-2013, 08:46
Tim K

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madusa

Are you upset that your zero moved that much? Maybe I'm old school but I would rezero and go to work.:)

No, I'm worried my zero wont be repeatable when I pull the action from the stock. Zeroing a subsonic .22 is a huge pain in the ass because you need essentially windless conditions to do so. Those conditions may not always be present between the time the action is removed and the next match.

Also, I don't like the idea that I may have zero shift of such large magnitude simply from over torquing the action bolts. Wood compresses over time, and my zero may wander as the effective clamping force decreases over time.

I'm going to look at the pillars tonight and see if I can bed them with Devcon.
11-20-2013, 16:32
C Ward

Anything that changes the tension on the action is going to effect zero . The torque on the screws especially . All actions flex , small thin rimfire actions more so . There is an article on 6BR about tuning the accuracy of a Savage centerfire rifle with the action screw torque .

Find what it likes and record it . Better yet leave it in the stock unless it gets wet and blow it out with shop air .
11-20-2013, 16:50
Tim K

Quote:

Originally Posted by C Ward

Find what it likes and record it . Better yet leave it in the stock unless it gets wet and blow it out with shop air .

Good advice. I'll see if my OCD will let me take it.
11-20-2013, 16:54
XC700116

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim K

Wood compresses over time, and my zero may wander as the effective clamping force decreases over time.

I'm going to look at the pillars tonight and see if I can bed them with Devcon.

I think this is a real valid concern, and please post the results as I'm getting ready to put mine in the same stock and start the build up on it soon.

To me the more you can do to "firm up" the bedding, the more repeatable and less problematic in the future. As C Ward pointed out the action isn't overly robust to begin with and I could definitely see how it would loosen up over time in a wood stock. Heck I did some minor stock work on my mom's hunting rifle last week (late 60's Winchester Mod 100) and was shocked at how sloppy the action/stock fit has become over time.
11-30-2013, 10:48
Tim K

I've bedded this thing for the fourth time now, and I think it's done. It took all those applications to get the Devcon up to fill the gap between the posts and the stock. The last application is still drying, but this one was just a tiny re-skim of the top edge and an extension of the area under the barrel. It felt pretty good before this, so I'm guessing it will feel rock solid.

I'll be shooting this rifle Tuesday night at the OTC, so I'll get a good chance to confirm it's all worked as I hope.

I'll post up some pics of the finished job as long as no one laughs at what it looks like down deep inside. It's functional...
11-30-2013, 11:15
Madusa

Quote:

Anschutz rifles have won more Olympic medals and world accuracyrecords than all other rimfire rifles combined.

Just throwing it out there. My factory Anschutz rifles are not bedded. Stocks are made from beech. What I'm getting at is, bedding your rifle won't hurt but it may not help.
11-30-2013, 11:34
Tim K

It will clearly help. Varying the torque on the action bolts radically changes the POI. Bedding the totally unsupported action is going to go a long way to adding repeatability when removing the action from the stock.

If you meant it might not improve accuracy with the action mounted in the stock (not varying torque), I agree completely. That's not the concern I'm addressing. The rifle is a hammer (by $200 rifle standards) as long as I keep the action in the stock. I'm most concerned about the slightly spongy stock compressing and causing the POI to shift.
11-30-2013, 16:16
BPTactical

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim K

I'll post up some pics of the finished job as long as no one laughs at what it looks like down deep inside. It's functional...

And ugly girls are "functional" but nobody wants to see a picture of them[Flower]
11-30-2013, 16:40
Tim K

Right. No pics, then!

I'm a delicate flower and wouldn't want to get my feelings hurt if all the other guys laughed at me.
11-30-2013, 17:41
Hoser

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madusa

Anschutz rifles have won more Olympic medals and world accuracyrecords than all other rimfire rifles combined.

Those rifles that won all those medals might have started out as a factory gun, but by the time they won medals about all that was left was the action and bolt, sometimes the stock if it was a chassis.
11-30-2013, 18:28
BPTactical

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim K

Right. No pics, then!

I'm a delicate flower and wouldn't want to get my feelings hurt if all the other guys laughed at me.

We will laugh at you anyhoo Tim[Bungi]
11-30-2013, 18:29
Hoser

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim K

Right. No pics, then!

I'm a delicate flower and wouldn't want to get my feelings hurt if all the other guys laughed at me.

You could hold me...
11-30-2013, 18:39
BPTactical

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoser

You could hold me...

OK, like that's not creepy....
12-01-2013, 18:52
spongejosh

I made my own pillars and pillar bedded my Marlin because of the "squishy" wood problem. I didn't measure the torque when I put it back together but I hope to be able to play with it more this winter and see if my zero shifts. It is rock sold now with all metal to metal contact on the mounting screws so I expect it to be repeatable.

https://www.ar-15.co/threads/63393-M...ghlight=marlin
12-01-2013, 19:13
Tim K

Quote:

Originally Posted by BPTactical

OK, like that's not creepy....

Creepy? No. Hoser is dreamy.
12-01-2013, 20:05
TheBelly

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim K

Creepy? No. Hoser is dreamy.

Now, YOU'RE being creepy.
12-04-2013, 16:29
Tim K

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBelly

Now, YOU'RE being creepy.

Homophobe.
12-04-2013, 20:03
TheBelly

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim K

Homophobe.

Heterophobe.
12-04-2013, 20:48
BPTactical

Y'alls creepy[panic]