http://news.yahoo.com/video/abc-news...220000361.html
If you're white in South Africa I'd be getting out ASAP. He was the major reason blacks in that that country weren't avenging apartheid with genocide.
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http://news.yahoo.com/video/abc-news...220000361.html
If you're white in South Africa I'd be getting out ASAP. He was the major reason blacks in that that country weren't avenging apartheid with genocide.
I can't believe he lived as long as he did.
That was one tough old man!
The real mandella http://americanfreepress.net/?p=11873
My best African American friend was a Recce and had to leave South Africa when Apartheid ended.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dryfli
His account of Mandella and South African History is much in line with this article.
Good riddance to Mandella.
Yep, dead
he dead!
Terrorist
You've got to be shitting me. I'm guessing if you were forced to live under a 2nd class oppressive society you'd just lay down your arms and comply. One mans terrorist is another's freedom fighter. I guess it's ok for people in another country to be oppressed....as long as it's not here. Wasn't our country founded by a bunch of terrorists?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dryfli
[Pop]
Replacing one form of racism with another form of racism isn't a solution. Mandela, leader of the communist African National Congress, was no better than the white apartheid racists that he replaced. I will always and forever applaud the death of a communist.
From what I can tell SA isn't a communist nation. It's a long the same lines as Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh wanted help from Truman but he never responded so he turned to the Soviets for help. Imagine how that would've turned out if we would of intervened earlier. This board is full of hypocrites. Mandela is no better than the people he replaced ? YHGTBSM.Quote:
Originally Posted by roberth
So HBAR, what does that have to do with Apartheid ?
I didn't say South Africa was communist, I said the ANC the organization that Mandela led was communist.Quote:
Originally Posted by RMAC757
MOD EDIT, NO PERSONAL ATTACKS
What topic is that HBAR....? And I'm not sure I care if it's "becoming". Mandela never sought retribution against anyone after he was elected. He even brought about Truth and Reconciliation so the country could start healing and certain criminals were given a get out of jail free card. Extreme poverty and lack of opportunity creates a monster. You don't need to be a sociologist to know that. It would of happened anywhere, in any country.Quote:
Originally Posted by HBARleatherneck
Interesting the story you get from people who lived, or still live there. Mandela being gone is a good thing. And yeah, serious issues blacks/whites for sure.
There has been a quiet genocide going on for years. And the police do nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
But I agree, folks have a reason to be concerned, and not just "whites." Look at Zimbabwe--the country can't feed itself after forcing whites out (and killing the ones who wouldn't leave).
http://www.genocidewatch.org/southafrica.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by RMAC757
This is a genocide.Quote:
Since 1994, the end of the so-called Apartheid, white people, especially white farmers, have been subject to extremely brutal and racist murders. About 50 people on average are murdered in South-Africa per day, of which at least 20 of them are whites(95+ % black on white murder rate).
And Apartheid was evil. But it was no genocide.
I know very little of the man, just what the media presents and a few posters I have seen here and there along the likes of several liberals and their causes which I dislike.
Another term with Obama, and that all will be the reality in this country.
Guys i know in Joberg , Pretoria and cape town NEVER went out unarmed. When my nephew and neice were down there they never went out UNARMED. Sun goes down, whites are in. Now the more "progressive" SA's like their nightlife. HOWEVER as with Detroit, Philly, Chi-town, BMoe and other "urban areas" If you're white, stay in at night.Quote:
Originally Posted by davsel
Regardless of the history of South Africa, I won't miss Mandela at all. I doubt there are many angels singing over him. Unfortunately, someone worse is probably in line behind him.
And?
From: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ng-breath.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Dave
‘It is definitely coming down to a race thing,’ Laura du Plessis told me as she was comforted by her family. ‘They hate white people. We have never had a fight with any black people. I always stop and give others a lift. We employ black people.
‘My husband fought for me. I am grateful that he wasn’t tied up and forced to watch me being raped before he was killed. He was an amazing man. He was my life.’
I have friends from SA and Rhodesia. SA will just turn into Zimbabwe. Sad how a place that was so prosperous can wind up a shit hole. [Bang] Kind of like Detroit on a much larger scale. [beatdeadhorse]
pResident orders US Flag to be flown at half staff for Mandella
http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/SAfr...2/05/id/540353
WHAT?
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/...psbaed4061.png
Nope, they weren't bombing citizen owned private establishments targeting non combatant innocents.Quote:
Originally Posted by RMAC757
Wait....this coukd be great news! This means Obama is moving to south Africa?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailey Guns
Quote:
Originally Posted by HBARleatherneck
I was inclined to at least consider your opinions until you wrote that. Did the colonists commit acts of barbarism on occasion? Sure. It always happens during war. But to equate the colonists and founders to terrorists in general (especially how we interpret the word today) is ridiculous and nothing more than a distortion of history. If anything the British army conducted far more "acts of terror" (probably more accurately described as war crimes) against the colonists than did the colonists against the British.Quote:
Originally Posted by RMAC757
When was the last time a terror organization (as we commonly use the word) achieved their political goals and used their victory to:
- Produce a document as profound as the Declaration of Independence?
- Produce a system of gov't and laws that recognized equality of man and his natural rights?
- Develop a system of gov't that endures and has become the epitome of freedom around the world?
- Lay the groundwork for a country that people from around the world will literally die trying to reach?
- Occasional amended their system of gov't, laws and Constitution to recognize that there were flaws in the originals?
- Encouraged individual achievement in order to better the person rather than the state?
- Freed others from the oppressive, tyrannical governments under which they live in order to restore their freedom, not just enslave them under another tyrannical gov't, and asked nothing in return?
That's right. Never. I would argue that the further away our elected leaders of our federal gov't get from it's founding ideals the closer it's becoming to a tyrannical state, but in a general, overall sense it's not really there yet.
(I'm not arguing our federal gov't hasn't over-reached in it's power in the slightest. But we still don't live in a country run by a true tyrant in the sense of the tyrants we've seen in the past. Might not be too far away...but we're not there yet.)
Pretty balanced look at Mr. Mandela's life from Breitbart.
Quote:
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2...dela-1918-2013
“I have fought against white domination, and I have fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to achieve. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die.” - Nelson Mandela, speech from the dock, Rivonia Trial, Pretoria, South Africa, April 20, 1964
Quote:
Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela, former president of South Africa and one of the most revered leaders of his time, has passed away at the age of 95 in Johannesburg, South Africa.
To black South Africans, Mandela was a liberator. To white South Africans, he was a symbol of reconciliation. To the world, he was a moral example--both of the courage to fight for freedom, and the wisdom to make compromises for the sake of lasting peace.
Mandela was born in Mvezo, in the Xhosa tribal hinterland of the Eastern Cape, in 1918, into a family that cultivated its sons as advisors to the local chief. He grew up steeped in the decorous ritual of that pastoral culture, and his clan name, Madiba, is affectionately used to refer to him by South Africans of all backgrounds. He attended mission schools and studied briefly at Fort Hare, alongside many of the country’s future black leaders.
Life in South Africa’s booming industrial metropolis, Johannesburg--eGoli, or City of Gold, in Xhosa--attracted the young Mandela, and after a few abortive efforts in the mining industry he found his way to the legal profession. Together with O.R. Tambo, Mandela formed the first black law firm in South Africa.
Both would later lead the African National Congress (ANC), the movement that is South Africa’s ruling party today.
Mandela became involved in politics through the ANC’s Youth League, which spurned the ANC’s then-reformist culture and urged a more aggressive campaign for full racial equality. Along the way he befriended many of the major cultural figures of his time, and became acquainted with whites who shared his goal of equality. Though many of the latter were communists, Mandela never embraced communism as a political philosophy.
After the rise of apartheid in 1948, the ANC and other organizations launched the non-violent Defiance Campaign, similar to the civil rights movement in the United States. Mandela, together with dozens of other leaders, was rounded up and prosecuted in the infamous Treason Trial, and eventually acquitted. But with the Sharpeville Massacre of 1960, the ANC’s leaders became convinced that non-violence would not be effective.
Mandela and other ANC leaders then launched a military wing, Umkhonto we Sizwe (Spear of the Nation), which carried out a sabotage campaign. In 1962, Mandela and several other leaders were arrested and, after the Rivonia Trial, sentenced to prison on Robben Island in 1964.
The ANC remained banned in the country, but its military wing continued to operate within Southern Africa, with assistance from the Soviet Union. The decision to align with the Soviet Union would later haunt the ANC, as it alienated the United States and Great Britain, which were otherwise inclined to support the anti-apartheid movement (and did so, albeit in limited fashion). While Mandela was in prison, the Soviet-trained leaders of the ANC's army committed human rights abuses in military camps outside the country, and used terror attacks on civilians inside South Africa.
Though some parliamentary opposition to apartheid remained, notably in Helen Suzman’s Progressive Party (the antecedent of today’s leading opposition party, the Democratic Alliance), political opposition to apartheid was suppressed until the Soweto riots of June 1976. New movements started, such as the United Democratic Front, and as international sanctions and protests mounted, the regime began negotiating quietly with Mandela.
After the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989 and the impending collapse of the Soviet Union, then-President F. W. de Klerk made a surprise announcement in February 1990 that Mandela would be released. Following his jubilant march from the Pollsmoor prison gates to the chaos of Cape Town City Hall, Mandela and the ANC began a long negotiating process with the government as well as other political parties, including newly “unbanned” ones.
Early on, Mandela agreed to suspend the ANC's “armed struggle.” That did not end political violence--which became worse--but the decision helped strip violence of its political legitimacy. White voters soon approved the talks in a 1992 referendum, and the country’s first democratic election took place on April 27, 1994, electing Mandela as president and de Klerk as his deputy. Both had shared the 1993 Nobel Peace Prize.
Mandela’s five-year term in office was moderately successful. The country approved a new constitution, and embarked on a painful reckoning with its past through the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. The ANC reluctantly agreed to a fiscally conservative, market-oriented economic strategy--yet also passed strict labor laws and affirmative action policies, leading to weakly positive growth but also persistently high unemployment.
While in office, Mandela took pains to honor the letter and spirit of the new constitution, and embodied the country’s new “Rainbow Nation” self-image. He accepted famously donned a Springbok jersey--once a symbol of apartheid--during the 1995 Rugby World Cup. And by serving only a single term, Mandela sought to send a signal about the strength of South Africa’s new democracy, as well as to set an example for other African leaders.
However, Mandela’s term was marked by a dramatic rise in violent crime, which has only subsided slightly since. He also--as he later admitted--ignored the emergence of HIV/Aids. His former wife Winnie, already implicated in human rights abuses, became embroiled in corruption. Mandela also approved a controversial arms deal that kicked off an era of cronyism, while the ANC-dominated parliament refused to investigate.
In retirement, Mandela remained active in the country’s political and cultural life. He retained his good health partly due to an abstemious physical regime he had adopted during his imprisonment, and was frequently seen taking walks along public thoroughfares. His comfortable home in Houghton, an upscale neighborhood of Johannesburg, rapidly became a pilgrimage site for Hollywood celebrities and international sports stars.
Mandela cultivated friendships with opposition leaders, though he remained a party man to the last. He was reluctant to criticize his successor, Thabo Mbeki, but increasingly opposed Mbeki’s denialist policies on HIV/Aids.
Mandela also continued to play an international role, supporting the early stages of the U.S.-led war against terror but later criticizing the Iraq War, suggesting that the U.S. had treated the UN with disdain because of racism. His remarks on the latter conflict, during which Mandela used the word "holocaust" to describe American ambitions in Iraq, drew wide criticism. Mandela had, however, supported the U.S. in Afghanistan, saying at the White House in November 2001 that the war should not end until allied forces had "flushed out the terrorists." Those remarks provoked criticism and concern among South Africa's largely anti-American, left-wing ruling elite.
Mandela continued to maintain controversial allegiances to Cuban dictator Fidel Castro, to Libyan dictator Muammar Gadhafi, and to Palestine Liberation Organization chairman Yasser Arafat, rewarding them for their support of the ANC during its exile. A peace-maker at home, Mandela failed to broker an end to civil war in Zaire/Congo, and neither he nor his successors managed to convince Zimbabwe’s Robert Mugabe to leave office.
In his last days, Mandela's illness was accompanied by public fighting and legal wrangles among his family members about where he would be buried--whether at his childhood home in the small village of Qunu, or at a site in Mvezo chosen by his grandson Mandla. The controversy amplified family disputes that had plagued Mandela throughout his public life, particularly as colleagues and relatives sought to profit from his name and stature.
Yet Mandela’s legacy remains a profoundly positive and inspirational one. He brought his country to democracy without the civil war that was once considered inevitable. And whereas South Africans once feared the chaos that would result once Mandela left the political scene, the country--though still troubled by labor unrest, poverty and crime--had long since stabilized to the point where it had anticipated Mandela’s death with grace.
Mandela leaves behind a world that will remain fascinated by his example. He also leaves many who remember him dearly, as a caring friend with a gentle wit. As his former parliamentary opponent, Tony Leon, said in a 2008 tribute, Mandela “wore his power, and immense moral authority, very lightly.”
He touched the lives of individuals as well as nations. He will be missed; with any luck, he will be imitated. Farewell, Madiba.
I see Obama couldn't even write an original line to memorialize the event. He stole Stanton's line regarding Lincoln's death "he belongs to the ages" without attribution. I supposed he'll say he thought of it first but telepathically influenced Stanton in the past or some such rot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailey Guns
Bailey....my point if you chose to read it correctly is that the British viewed the Colonial Army as nothing more than a band of terrorists ( for their ambush and sniping techniques and unconventional warfare ...for fighting "unfair" and were not inclined to even treat our troops as standard soldiers of war but criminals. I have read extensively on this topic. Read about the prison barges they kept the colonial troops in. Next time, don't distort what I wrote to jump on the bandwagon. It's not like you. Obviously I wasn't equating our founding fathers to Al Aqadea. With that being said, I'm out for now.
Hell the blacks in SA even hate the black Angolans that fought for SA during the Border Wars. Take a look at Pomfret where 32 Battalion soldiers got dumped off. They get treated like crap by the ANC just because they fought on the SA side of the war.
Considering SA is far worse now than it was then, how can you say that Mandela did anything good for the country, or the people of the country, or the world?
Oh, whites were oppressing blacks there? Evidently with good reason. How can you argue against that? Their actions to keep a lid on this behavior have been retroactively proven justified. If you can't behave civilized, then you deserve to be treated like a second class citizen. And that goes for any skin color, anywhere.
And if you can't behave civilized, and you can't stand being treated like a second class citizen, and you start blowing stuff up to get your way, you are a terrorist. You're not a freedom fighter.
Historically, white colonists in Africa (see: Rhodesia, South Africa, and Zambia) have been subjected to pretty harsh treatment and oppression. I would classify some of the events that happened to Rhodesians as near-genocidal. Of the South African contractors (one actually identified himself as Rhodesian) I met in Afghanistan, the general consensus was "South Africa was a safer and more productive place before Mandela took control."Quote:
Originally Posted by generalmeow
Imagine if the American colonists threw off the yoke of their British oppressors only to immediately fall into decline, and become the rape and HIV capital of the world. Would George Washington be revered all over the world?
Obviously the revolution would be called a huge mistake, and GW would be a joke. I can't figure out how Mandela has escaped this.
I know I said I was out but this warranted a reply. The atrocities committed by all races in SA was horrible. It was a product of Apartheid. If you systematically treat people unethically a monster will be unleashed. Poverty creates violence and a host of other issues. It doesn't matter if your black, white, Indian or Asian. Look at Northern Irleland or some of the many other nations that have felt "oppressed". Less than 10% of the population of SA ruled over and created a separate code of living for the rest of the nation. How could this not end in violence or revolution? Ask yourself what would happen here if 10% of a particular ethnic group voted itself all powerful? Would you lay down your guns and comply with your new rules? Would you move to the newly formed Ghettos or would you fight? I read a book when I was about 15 called "Kafir Boy". It lead to me reading a host of other books on South Africa and apartheid. There is never a good reason to treat one ethnic group differently than another. Just ask those in the Balkans. It will not end well. As a reply to some, I don't support all things black. That's just stupid. Mugabe is a monster and deserves to be treated a such. As does any other dictator that advocates violence against its people. Whites oppressing blacks for good reason? Is it possible they created this monster? Mandela wasn't a saint, but I believe in what he fought for.
I agree that if I were part of the 90% being oppressed by the 10%, that I wouldn't like it, and I would want to fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by RMAC757
But as an outsider I can see that the 10% were right to be scared and in trying to oppress the 90%. They have been proven correct, haven't they? Their standard of safe living has been destroyed.
It turns out that the 90% didn't mind living like they were. They don't even mind living even worse now. They live worse, and they love Mandela for it. They just didn't want anyone living better than themselves. They were jealous.
The 10% were the good guys. Or maybe not good, but they had very good reasons (and have been vindicated) for oppressing the 90%. Namely, "If we let you have the power, we'll become the rape and HIV capital of the world, so no, you can't have the power".
I see the same issues arising in Israel if "the world" has its way.
South Africa was a tribal hell hole before white colonialists civilized it as much as they could.
Israel remains an oasis of civilization surrounded by savage nations.
If you remove the protectors of civilization from a region, lawlessness will rapidly take its place.
Personally, I believe the continent of Africa should have been left alone from the beginning. However, the greed of politicians will not allow.
It has been proven many times that you cannot bring a third world state up to a first world state quickly. Does not work. Lead a horse to water... Afghanistan is likely the most recent example.
Third world morals are not the same as first world morals.
Without a higher moral standard, civilization cannot exist.
CNN just reported Mandela was on the terrorist watch list until 2008.