How can my trust purchase a NFA firearm, instead of me (the trustee) purchasing a NFA firearm and transfer it into the trust? Why does this matter and is it only Assignment of Property record keeping complications?
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How can my trust purchase a NFA firearm, instead of me (the trustee) purchasing a NFA firearm and transfer it into the trust? Why does this matter and is it only Assignment of Property record keeping complications?
It really should be a gun trust to do this. The internal verbiage is different in some areas and it has multiple schedules. A trust is considered a US person (entity) and so can purchase the NFA item. The trust has flexibility built into it that and individually purchased NFA item doesn't. It allows for multiple people to access and use the NFA item, adjustment of who those people are, and flexibility to adjust who gets what at death of the trustee. This last point is huge and simply cannot be overlooked. Probate court for your relatives is a crappy way to go out. If you buy an NFA item and then want to put it into the trust, you have to transfer it and pay another $200 and wait for the Form 4 to clear before it will be in the trust.
As it stands now, Trusts and LLCs are the only avenue around Sheriff sign-off on the Form 4s for purchase. Oblowme's recent bout of executive order douchbaggery will effect trust purchases, but I haven't been able to get the actual wording of what will change in the future and can only work off of rumor. So, instead of passing bad info, I won't discuss what I've heard. Some of it doesn't sound good though.
Have the trust get a bank account. Buy all NFA stuff with said account. Then there is never an issue.
Search around on this forum for other opinions. But in the end, if any entity other than the trust buys the item and then assigns it to the trust, then that entity has transferred the item. That could be problematic in some cases.
Sorry, but this isn't true. The Form 4 dictates the transfer, period. The check can be from a (the) trustee's bank account and there is no issue or problem or legal issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by asmo
So form 4's are acquired and filled through the company that the trustee purchases NFA products from? Or is the form 4 filled independently by the trustee individually?Quote:
Originally Posted by SA Friday
Agree with SA Friday........the Trust should issue the check out of the Trust bank account, or a cashiers check/ money order..........80% of NFA items are going the Trust LLC route by my estimate........... FWIW.
We have been through this before. You and I have differing opinions. Since the ATF won't make a published ruling on the question - all we have are our opinions to go on.Quote:
Originally Posted by SA Friday
Then you agree with me, not SAFriday.Quote:
Originally Posted by RANGERRON72
WRT payments, I agree with my trust attorney that there is no compelling need to maintain a separate checking account in the trust name.
The way I look at it, you are already the trustee and would also be the signer on any trust checking account so it's splitting hairs.
Sent from a device smart enough to send a man to the moon if the battery could last the trip.
you are giving bad info to newbies. I sell suppressors and SBR's weekly, lately daily. I've had one with a trust bank acct out of all of them. None kicked. Mine isn't from a position of opinion but of experience. Either will work, no need to go through the hoops.Quote:
Originally Posted by asmo
No need for a Trust checking account.
Form 4 filled out in the name of the Trust with the Trustee signing as the legal representative of the Trust.
It will not only affect trust purchases, but those of corps, partnerships and all other non-person legal entities as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by SA Friday
The proposal is that any person with access to the NFA items will need to have a CLEO signoff and send in pics and prints, both when the entity acquires new NFA items, and when new persons with access are added to the trust or partnership, or authorized by the corp.
That is the wording of the proposed ruling, "-41P", and it's what we've got to go off of until/unless it gets altered if/when the official rule changes are promulgated.
Yes. The Form 4 is to transfer from a class III dealer to an individual/trust/LLC. The form is completed by the dealer and then signed by the dealer and the trustee of the trust. Once completed in duplicate, they are attached to a full copy of the trust and the item is added to the Schedule A and reflecting 'pending' as a status. A $200 check is done and the whole thing is mailed off. OR… You find someone who e-files. In that case the info is electronically filed, an electronic copy of the trust is attached, the trustee electronically signs and the $200 is done via credit card. The form 4 has to be done to transfer the item.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackthewall81
How difficult the process is for the customer really comes down to the dealer. Some make the customer feel like it's their problem. Well, it's really the dealers responsibility. I personally went through a pretty shitty initial endeavor into NFA items. I got very little guidance from the dealer, bad information in one instance, charged $50 for changing from an individual to a trust form 4 (ya, they charged me extra to do something required, assholes) and has to self educate to get everything done. I will not let that happen to anyone that I sell NFA items to. Some places sign the form 4 and hand it to you and "see ya!". I do your stuff, you sign and date the form 4s and fill out a check for the ATF if you want it mailed. I do the rest to include mail the package. If you want to e-file, then we e-file the form 4 right there with your credit card and I even scan in your trust.
SA, why would you add a "pending" item to the schedule A? The transfer hasn't yet been approved. FWIW, I've been clearly instructed not to add any NFA item to the schedule A until the stamp is received. It's in the possession of the dealer until that happens.
Sent from a device smart enough to send a man to the moon if the battery could last the trip.
I have heard this as well, but I have also heard the LCEO sign-off will go away completely for all sale types vs sign off. In return, all sheriff's receive notification when the transfer is completed. Not being able to find an official copy of the EO, I don't know which is correct. Requiring CLEO sign-off is a problem, and a big one. This gives sheriff's the ability to restrict sales where no law giving them this power exists. NFA was never meant to authorize this power to sheriffs. An EO cannot arbitrarily add this power nor alter the law as it stands. The rest is procedural and EO can alter this. So, I suspect the wording on this EO won't be released until the last minute and I will be very interested in seeing what happens with the CLEO signing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Circuits
You are correct, the transfer hasn't happened yet and is pending. I have been clearly instructed by both a lawyer and the ATF to add it to the Schedule A and denoted as pending. The schedule A can be either a blank copy with just the pending item or a copy of all the items with stamps and then added as pending to the bottom of it. When it's back you can either add it to the original schedule A or line out the pending and add the number. Either is legal. Ultimately, I don't think it matters at all if you add it or not, but after talking to the NFA office about it, I do what they told me to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by brutal
Man, it's so funny. Half the time I don't think what the dealer and buyer are getting wrapped up about are not relevant at all to the NFA office. As long as the form 4 is tight, the check cashes, and the gun trust is done well the transfer goes through just fine.
BTW, did you know you are supposed to bring a letter certifying that whomever is picking up the NFA item is allowed to do so and associated to the trust? If the trustee is picking up the item, they certify that they are OK to pick up the item. Ya, I know stupid right? I have the reference showing this requirement at work. I about fell out when I found out about it.
So the trustee has to prepare the letter? ROFL Wonder how many are done on the spot?
Sent from a device smart enough to send a man to the moon if the battery could last the trip.
I include this letter with my Trust package.Quote:
Originally Posted by brutal
No where have I ever said that they would be rejected - tens of thousands of people a year do it without issue. All I have said is that if an over-zealous/lacking-in-understanding agent/FP wanted to be a douche-bag, they could use that as a wedge. I see absolutely no reason to provide them with any such capability.Quote:
Originally Posted by SA Friday
Its still opinion as there isn't an ATF declaration stating either way. When you go to SHOT and do the ATF University - and/or actually work in Martinsville/Clarksville and deal with new agents - and ask the question directly they cant give you an actual answer. For me setting up a bank account for the trust is a 10 minute ordeal - and, for me, gives me lots more piece of mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by SA Friday
In the end do whatever you think is best after consulting an attorney and researching the question for yourself.
Man, I wish they all did.Quote:
Originally Posted by NFATrustGuy
I have a digital blank one with areas to fill in for the person picking up the item.
One other small thing about having a bank account in the name of the Trust, and paying for the stamp with said account, you don't need to include a Schedule A with the submission. I have been told multiple times that the reason for the Schedule A (to the ATF) is to prove that the Trust is funded - that's all. If you send them a check from the Trust's bank account it accomplishes the same thing. I have never included a Schedule A with any submission and have never had a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by SA Friday
IANAL - YMMV..
OR…. you can skip going to the bank, funding an account, paying charges on the account, and having another check book and make a copy of one piece of paper and write about 5-6 words and a serial number on it. You have to show funding of the trust. A blank copy of Schedule A with the pending info takes 1 minute and way less hassle. Seriously, let it go… The account BS just makes it harder for new purchasers and there is NO legal reason to do it, period. If you are afraid of submitting a list of items on your schedule A, the ATF has the info already…Quote:
Originally Posted by asmo
Looks again at trust package...Quote:
Originally Posted by NFATrustGuy
Looking back in my files at the evolution of my Trust package, it looks like I started including them in late March, 2013. I don't remember your real name so I can't tell you if it was included in your package. If not, shoot me an email and I'll be happy to whip one up and send it your way.Quote:
Originally Posted by brutal
I call it the "4473 Acquisition Statement," by the way. It's the very last document in my Trust paperwork package.
RWW