Interesting.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f93_1390833151
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Interesting.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f93_1390833151
I'm listening for the last 11 minutes. I don't agree with everything he has done, but I'm always impressed by Snowden when I hear him talk.
Won't load on my crap phone. :(
Didn't realize he was so young.
Not bothering to listen to a traitor trying to rationalize what he did. It's probably got about as much truth value as Obama's State of the Union address ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aloha_Shooter
The only traitors in this are those that are going against established US law and the Constitution ... not Snowden...
Interesting indeed. I have strong mixed feelings about what he did. Do I revile him for betraying our country, or respect him for exposing our corrupt and morally bankrupt government?
Oh no, Snowden is indeed a damned traitor. People should be far more concerned with what the IRS and DOJ have been doing but NSA is placed in the same position now that Nixon was in 1960 when Kennedy spouted the BS about a missile gap.Quote:
Originally Posted by clublights
Good to know you agree with Feinstein on the value of the 4th amendment. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Aloha_Shooter
All too often we hear about the overreach of foreign governments (from our own) on their citizens and how the U.S. is devoid of any such activities. While there had been suspicions for years, Snowden pulled back the curtain on the ugliness of A) the hypocrisy the U.S. has demonstrated in condemning other countries of, and B) showed that we are as bad, if not worse, than any of them in the snooping on our own citizens department.
Traitor? -more like patriot.
I can easily see that manning is a traitor, but am still glad I know some of the stuff that leaked. Such as the state dept memo acknowledging that the 90% of Mexico guns are not from US dealers but the us gov aid to SAmerica, not mom and pop civilian dealers that hillaryclinton lied about two weeks later.
Snowden, IMO, did the USA a great favor by leaking what he did. If the GOP wins in 2014/6, I think snowdens leaks might have contributed to it. Hatidua put it quite well I think.
Our government is trashing the constitution and the guy that pulled back the curtain is a traitor?
When this first was a story, we had a thread about this and I think Aloha had an explanation of how whether right or wrong, he is a traitor by definition.
Yes, technically he is a traitor.
So were Washington, Revere, and Jefferson.
Snowden social engineered passwords, broke into accounts, vacuumed up all kinds of information, planned out his departure from the country and did all of this in what, six months? There's no way he went in as a wide-eyed naive kid who became disillusioned and decided to break it out on the spur of the moment.
The calling records are equivalent to the outside of the envelope when you drop something in the mail. This story has been spun from the start by those who don't like the NSA at all -- like Harold Stimson shutting down the Cipher Bureau because "gentlemen don't read each other's mail." Contrast that to the IRS asking Tea Party groups for records of their meetings, letters, etc.
The fact of the matter is that Snowden has done incalculable damage to national security. People who really feel they're whistleblowers don't typically run off just before the news breaks -- look at the Pentagon Papers. While I'm happy he put the lie to Hillary's statements about firearm trafficking and Mexico, who here really needed his confirmation that she was lying through her teeth? In the meantime, I'm NOT happy about him revealing to the PRC, Russia, AQ, et al how we find and track their agents.
On this one note, every gun grabber in the US needed to know she was lying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aloha_Shooter
Irving, the problem is that none of the gun grabbers will pay any attention to that. They're all living in their little fantasy worlds ignoring things like facts and logic already. One more piece of evidence that Hillary lies is ... redundant and almost pointless.
It's better to be able to prove that she lied, than to just be confident about it. That kind of thing is what shuts people up, even when you know they'll never agree with you. Back to Snowden.
Since the 1990s people have been warning us that EVERYTHING you do online, every phone call, ever credit card purchase, was "ingested" (to use Snowden's term) into a massive digital database. These people were usually laughed off as "kooks." What Snowden did was verify this. Not only that, but he alleged the existence of an international intelligence apparatus operating outside of any government oversight, of which the NSA supposedly was only a part. I found it interesting that he defended his actions by claiming it was not "treason" since he revealed it to American journalists for free rather than to another government for profit. I do not know anything about the nature of the leaked documents, nor do 99% of the American people. What the media is reporting, for the most part, is simply that "the NSA" (or whoever) is collecting ALL online and digital activity into a database, storing it forever, and occasionally misusing it. It is about time the average citizen was made aware of that, but Snowden is no hero for violating his oaths and breaking multiple laws. He could've gone about this another way, without releasing his "proof" to the general public and getting all our allies pissed off at the United States. I doubt anything will change, and in 6 months it will be forgotten, and a year later Snowden will be found dead of "natural causes."
Snowden is merely pealing back the curtain that Obama has in front of the peering at each of us, if you support Obama, it would make sense to oppose Snowden.
Aloha_Shooter: Don't take this as an attack, but more of a thought experiment. What would you do if you were a government contractor with access to the information that Snowden used? Would you keep quiet like so many before making off hand comments leading to rumors, or selectively bring things to light that you (and pretty much everyone else in the US) would agree are in direct violation of the US constitution? If there is a line between patriot and traitor, where is it drawn, and how could Snowden have done things differently in order to preserve our national security all while revealing the direct violations to the US constitution?
I do not think that there is a right or wrong answer to this, but we can all agree that some of the information provided by him was beneficial in exposing corruption at a level that was previously only brought to light in a tin foil hat. There are obviously certain pieces of information that he leaked that were damaging to the US, but what is damaging now will be common knowledge one day and talked about on the history channel like the Manhattan project of WWII. Point being that the information he exposed no longer has any bearing on the future other than the US has to change tactics now rather than later. The moment his first leak came out, someone somewhere knew exactly what information he had access to, and the entire US government knew that it was going to come out. His first several leaks focused on exposing corruption, and later ones came out after a significant amount of time. This you might say was on purpose in order to allow the US to shift its position prior to potentially damaging information being revealed. Then the truly damaging information was used as a bargaining chip to countries that wanted to know, but only as hindsight after changes had been made. One might argue that only reason this information came out in the first place is because he would have been "silenced" by the US govt had he stayed on US soil.
[QUOTE=hatidua;1507143]Snowden is merely pealing back the curtain that Obama has in front of the peering at each of us, if you support Obama, it would make sense to oppose
Mmmmm ... it's in Obama's interest that you focus your attention on Snowden and keep pecking away at the national security apparatus he really doesn't care about so you don't see what he's done to the IRS and DOJ. The IRS told Nixon to shove off when he tried to politicize it but bent over backwards to carry out Obama's (so far as we know now) unexpressed desires, much like Henry VIII asking if no one would rid him of this troublesome priest.
The fact that he is alive right now makes me think that he is a little smarter than most people give him credit for. He has walked a line so narrow to get to where he is at now that I really wonder how smart this guy really is. World leaders of other countries cant stand up to the US govt as long as he has. Also our allies are pissed at us for what our government did, not what Snowden said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint45
Danimal, I've already thought about that and there are ways to handle that. The first and foremost is that if you're truly a whistleblower and don't trust the IG for some reason, you can go to a friendly Congressman or Senator (Rand Paul would seem to be a natural choice) instead of a foreign reporter. You don't hand over gigabytes of information revealing ways and means to foreigners.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danimal
His first leaks were on ways and means of intelligence collection -- not corruption. Ways and means -- revealing that was damaging immediately on release. It's like telling Japan on August 10th, 1945 that we'd shot our wad with Fat Man and couldn't drop another atomic bomb if we wanted to.
Contrary to John Cusack's Grosse Pointe Blank, the NSA doesn't have assassins running around shooting leakers. Hell, I think most of the geeks there don't know much about firearms beyond what they see in videogames.
I do not think a politician would release any of this information to the public because they would go to jail for it. I am glad Snowden poked the bees nest here and abroad because the only way to get change is to have public leverage. The best way to get public leverage is with an incident, just ask the anti-gunner's.
For the people who think the standard avenues for Whistle Blowers are open for people in the intelligence world, look up the name William Binney.
Federal whistle blower protections don't seem to apply if you're blowing the whistle on the Federal Government.
Funny how the media didn't mention let alone compare Binney when manning and snowden were in the spotlight, at least not that I noticed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick-Boy
The intelligence collection was predominantly regarding US citizens (but also applied to everyone else in the world) and it represents a gross misuse of power and is a prime example of everything wrong with our government. That is corruption, that is spying on your own people and it goes against everything we stand for as a nation with regards to privacy and freedom. He could not have said "this is how we spy on the US citizens, but rest of the world we do something different so don't worry" there is no separation. What was being done that concerned foreign governments was the same thing happening in the US and you cant oust one without the other. I also agree with Rabid in that I would not trust any politician with this information. Kinda like telling a murderer that you just won the lottery and haven't told anyone yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aloha_Shooter
I do agree that the information lost was harmful to our nation. I ask these questions because I do not know the answer. You can not have people running around doing what Snowden did and maintain any kind of security as a nation. While I see your point regarding the NSA, I think that you and I would be surprised if we knew the actual extent of the worst deeds done by the ruling elite that populate the government, and the tools they employ in the NSA, IRS, CIA, ATF and many other agencies. You don't need an agency full of assassins, just one or two good ones that are employed for very specific purposes. Their tactic as of late is simply to label the person in question as a terrorist while misconstruing, exaggerating or downright lying about the circumstances surrounding the individual. Then strong arm foreign nations to give them up and kill or lock them up in broad day light as the world watches lulled by the propaganda blasting main stream media.
I think that he did what he did, precisely the way that he did it, because he knew that was the only way he could get the information out. What he said needed to be said, and anything short of absolute proof and divulging of exact information would have been swept under the rug and hushed before it ever could be verified or made public knowledge. Maybe I am giving him too much credit, but maybe not. I think that our government has become corrupt to the point of being a risk to the nation on a completely different level. Protecting the secrets of a criminal organization will keep the criminals safe and sound to do their bidding, but knocking them down also exposes those who were under their "protection".
I am glad that you posted this. I have never even heard of him. I was in the military when this was happening, so I guess that might have shielded me from the rest of the world. It is a prime example of what happens when you speak out without divulging anything specific. He testified on multiple occasions that the NSA was in direct violation of the constitution, but never cited specifics because he knew what would happen if he did. He was subjected to FBI raid after raid to try and discredit his account and they never found anything, and all charges were dropped. But I have never heard of him, so I bet that there are many people out there that have never heard what he had to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick-Boy
Danimal, if you've got ITunes, look up the podcast "Common Sense" with Dan Carlin. Binney did an interview on there a couple of months ago that was really eye opening in a concerning sort of way.
Nice, thanks M-B. 20131127 1hr long MP3 available to download for free:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick-Boy
http://www.dancarlin.com//disp.php/c...ward%20Snowden
Thank you Mick-Boy. Thank you KestrelBike. This is worthwhile information. Danimal, i do not remember this at all either.Quote:
Originally Posted by KestrelBike
The technical data that Snowden released is all 5+ years old. Stuff is marked obsolete replaced by X with no details on X. The things I've seen for specific tech are focused on TEMPEST which dates back to the 80s, actual physical bugs (though more for computers now, embedded in VGA cables), and backdoors into computers that can survive reboot/wipes. The spy tech being disclosed is nothing new, just proof.
The phone data is just the tip of the iceberg. It just happened to get released first and is something everyone can understand.
how about tracking cell location
how about internet use, email, text messages, finances, phone apps
It has become clear that the NSA (and probably other agencies) are into wholesale tracking of everything everyone does. If that is not big brother I don't know what is. This was long suspected and needed to be confirmed.
Thanks for linking that. It was a great listen.Quote:
Originally Posted by KestrelBike
“Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
- Mark Twain
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by clublights
Sorry, late to the party. Just watched the video- interesting to say the least.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aloha_Shooter
See first quote and believe what you will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick-Boy
The federal government doesn't need to send hitmen after you. They can send SWAT teams to your house. They can tie you up in court with various charges and lawsuits. They can black list you for work in your field.
Again, listen to the interview with Mr. Binney. There are people that went down the road of "whistle blowing" in the traditional sense. It didn't work out well for them.
http://www.dancarlin.com/disp.php/cs...istle)(BlowingQuote:
Originally Posted by Mick-Boy
I will have to listen to it later.