Can one of you guys who has been through the process give us a quick overview of the steps required to build an SBR?
My trust paperwork should be done next week, so I don't necessarily need any explanation of that part of the process.
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Can one of you guys who has been through the process give us a quick overview of the steps required to build an SBR?
My trust paperwork should be done next week, so I don't necessarily need any explanation of that part of the process.
What kind of info are you looking for, actual build or filling out the paperwork? All of the above.
I'm sure everyone has their way of doing things but this is how I built my first one.
1. Decide what you want to build and acquire the lower or pistol.
2. Get paperwork filed either efile with a trust or paper individually.
2a. If snail mailed what about two months and call ATF to see if it is pending.
3. If you have a pistol go play with it for a while since the paperwork will take anywhere from 4-11 months.
4. If you have a lower you can build it up to the point of needing the upper. You can't legally possess a barrel until you have the paperwork back from the ATF.
5. Wait
6. Wait some more
7. You can get the lowered engraved at anytime some will wait till the paperwork is back others do it before hand. Good and bad points either way.
8. Paperwork arrives make copies so you have the original in the safe and copies with you just incase someone asks for it.
9. Go play with new toy.
10. File paperwork for another because you just can't have one NFA toy.
On this step I actually built the AR completely using a pistol buffer. That way I could test fire, play with it etc. until the stamp came in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurch
I don't need the lower before submitting paperwork? I figured I'd need the serial number.
Yes you do. You need the serial number on the paperwork. As well as the overall length so you will need to know what barrel you want to go with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim K
Read #1 again. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Tim K
Yup, I missed that. Stupid flu.
Another way is to buy a factory SBR lower so you dont have to screw with engraving your trust name on it. Thats how I went many years ago.
It's nice having a CNC sitting out in the shop. Engraving is a non-issue for me.
DO NOT PUT MULTI in section 4c , for Caliber
How come? And what do you put down then if the lower says Multi?Quote:
Originally Posted by Great-Kazoo
If you put down 5.56 or .223Rem, can you change out the upper later to have, say, a 300AAC Blackout upper?
Changing calibers or barrel lengths is not a permanent change.Quote:
Originally Posted by BuffCyclist
Just pick one and go with it.
I have a form 4 from long ago where I listed MULTI and it went through. Now days they kick them back.
Ah, gotcha, so it doesn't matter what you put unless you want it kicked back. Thanks! [Awesom]
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuffCyclist
yes and maybe. If the lower is anything other than a dedicated 9, 45, 22lr etc. I go with 5.56 . if you have a dedicated DDLES then you put 9mm.Quote:
Originally Posted by BuffCyclist
You may temporarily alter the caliber provided you can restore it to the original configuration (meaning you can put a 22 conversion on your 5.56 SBR for a cheap range trip), but you should still keep the 5.56 upper.
To expand... you can temporarily change the length/caliber at will. So keep the other upper, and you are fine.
However, if you ever want to rebuild your primary upper in a different length or caliber, it is just mailing to the ATF to inform them that the change has happened. There is no approval, or waiting. Just send it in and make your change, so it isn't as big of a deal as some make it out to be.
How does this help?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoser
Also, so if you are building a 300BLK and the lower states 'multi' you should still put down 5.56 on the form to make things easier? Even if you plan to run multiple uppers?
Can I use multiple short barreled uppers on the SBRd lower? It requires a paperwork change?
I don't know that I care, just trying to understand.
I that case you would put 300BLK on the form and engrave CAL 300blk on the lower. My lower was a factory "multi" and I engraved CAL 5.56 on it alomg with my trust name and city.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hound
If you put multi on your Form 1, the BATFE will not approve your form.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hound
If you put down more than one caliber on your Form 1, the BATFE will not approve your form.
So even if your lower says "MULTI", you put down the ONE caliber you first intend to build it in. The manufacturer can get away with marking receivers multi because they are produced as receivers only, so have no caliber until they are someday fitted with a barrel. An SBR must have a rifled barrel, so it must have a caliber, and the BATFE wants a description of the firearm as you will first build it.
Hmm, I may have to look into that. I have an SBR I built as an 8"er that I'm really kicking my self I didn't build a little shorter. It'd be simple to just take it to Bert and have him re cut and thread the barrel, but I thought I'd have to resubmit.Quote:
Originally Posted by J
I put all my SBR's as 7" bbls AND 5.56 This gives you leeway ( BBL and OAL )if you decided to drop a 22 or 9mm upper on. YMMVQuote:
Originally Posted by RCCrawler
^^ THIS^^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Circuits
As I understand it - Anything you want temporary. For a permanent change to the Form1 lower, you submit the change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim K
Here's one for the guru's. If you take it out of state on an approved form 5320.20, must it be the permanent upper on the form1 or can it be a temporary or even multiple uppers?
I've taken all/multiple uppers with me, but kept the Form 1 upper on the lower.Quote:
Originally Posted by brutal
That wouldn't have worked in either of my examples.Quote:
Originally Posted by Great-Kazoo
On one of mine it's built on a 15-22, I cut it to 8 not thinking that it takes less than 5.5" to keep most ammo subsonic, so I'd now like to cut 2.5" off of it. My understanding is I can go longer with no problem, but shorter and I have to fill out paperwork even if I keep this current upper on hand and buy another one.
Another one of mine is built on a DDLES dedicated 9mm lower with a 3" barrel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnrider
So on my form, I only put down 7.62 as the caliber. Will they kick the form back? Could be for 7.62x35 (300BLK) or 7.62x39
And do you have to engrave the caliber if it says multi?
Why would they? You listed one caliber, not, Multi, 300 XXX .Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric P
If it is in pending status call them, have your serial # on hand, when they ask. Then see what they say. Only ATF will can you a definitive answer, depending how they feel, that day, maybe. Be sure you get name, date, time. This way IF there is an issue later on you have documentation to reply with.
Does anyone have any guidance, an actual ATF pamphlet or instruction, indicating that short of the SBR's original configuration the AFT gives two rat poops what upper is on the lower? The upper is just a part. The lower is the item being registered.
I have talked to the NFA ATF office about removing uppers from SBR's and turning them over to the owner while the Form 4 on the lower clears. I discussed the upper being used on a lower previously Form 1ed. They related flat out that the upper was just a part and the lower was relevant.
I will not even remotely shocked if it's erroneous. Equally, I will not be shocked if the last three strings of info are not supported by direct ATF guidance.
I'm not even sure the AFT even knows…..
I would think 7.62 is just fine. Just like 5.56. I didn't put 5.56x45, I just put 5.56Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric P
Its my understanding you have to be able to bring it to the original Form 1 filing. So what will happen in the off chance the ATF comes a knocking?Quote:
Originally Posted by Great-Kazoo
If they already have a SBR they are fine. If they have another AR then no. If they don't have an AR then yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by SA Friday
Not a thing. ALL our AR SBR's wear their NFA stamp uppers. The other caliber uppers sit in a designated SBR rifle case. They can ask at the range, or in a vehicle (with warrant) nothing to elicit future inspection.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurch
Other caliber uppers are fun / range toys. The 5.56 / 223 ones are kept intact, as they are PD, HD, all around go to guns.
No. You can go shorter if you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by RCCrawler
Not that I don't believe you, but can anyone show where that is published?Quote:
Originally Posted by Circuits
If they don't care the actual length then why bother even asking? Just let us fill out a form saying SBR.
I put the shortest functioning 5.56 bbl length down 7" They need something to base your app off of. Just like Caliber. When you deal with the.gov everything is questionable.Quote:
Originally Posted by RCCrawler
There are no laws saying you CAN do things - just laws saying what you can't do.Quote:
Originally Posted by RCCrawler
The NFA defines an SBR as a rifle with a barrel less than 16" - and any length is good to go on an SBR.
You are required to put a length because you're the maker, and you're supposed to put down the initial build configuration. After that, there's no laws forbidding you from ever changing it. The back of the Form 1 does ask you to write the ATF and notify them of any permanent changes - but there is no statute requiring you to do that, either.
If you absolutely must have a written answer, write the ATF Firearms Technology branch and they'll send you a reply.
Ok, here's the scoop, I called the ATF Branch in Denver and asked the question.
-If it is a temporary change and you can change it right back, nothing is needed.
-If it's a permanent change you need to send a letter to the ATF NFA branch office listing your make, model, serial number, new barrel length, and new overall length.
He did not know if you could make the changes then send the letter, or if you had to send the letter first then wait for approval to make the changes so he gave me a number at the NFA branch to call.
The lady at the NFA branch said that you must send the letter, then wait for a response letter back from them before making any permanent changes. She said currently the wait on letters such as that is 3-6 months.
The Denver branch is LE, not technical side of things. While they can render a "guess" as you found out they are not savvy on NFA items. Unless you're in a sting.Quote:
Originally Posted by RCCrawler
If it's not from the tech branch back east, in writing, don't base what you do, on that answer.
THANK YOU! This was what I was trying to relay in my previous post. After the initial build, the ATF really doesn't care. Again, my previous conversations with the ATF NFA office concerning uppers all have finished the same, the lower is the SBR and the upper IS A PART...Quote:
Originally Posted by Circuits
(BTW, as a retired Fed I can tell you that if there isn't a statute to enforce then it's not against the law. They can want all they would like and they can put it all over forms in blood red print that sticks to your fingers if they want. Doesn't mean squat.)
Circuits, you and I need to go out for coffee one of these days and swap stories.