Feedback on Facebook conversation.

OK, I know many of you don't give a shit about Facebook and I don't really either. I find it fun to interact randomly with people who don't necessarily agree with me but that's about it.

To set the tone, my wife and I agree with vaccinating our children.

That being said I'm curious what you think about some recent posts by a family member and their friends during a conversation about whether people should vaccinate their children.

"Dr's orders today were: no play dates with anti-vaxers until *** old enough to get his measles shots in 6 months" ... OK fair enough but the term anti-vaxers felt very derogatory to me.

"Good move. Sucks that we've come to the point that you have to ask about parents's medical philosophy before you can let your kid play w/ theirs." ... Here's where we start crossing the line but the next one took the cake.

"I have always thought there should be a rubbery bracelet that kids wear in a distinctive color that let's other moms know that they do or don't vaccinate. Like how Livestrong and yellow bracelets were synonymous 10 years ago." .

... Or so I thought

"I think the problem is the weakening of the heard rather than pinpointing specific unvaccinated kids. Thanks to the anti-vax movement, everyone (including the vaccinated) are at risk because of the decrease in heard immunity."

Now I feel like I'm talking to a supremacist movement. Not that I thought liberals were anything but that but WOW.

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Now I feel like I'm talking to a supremacist movement. Not that I thought liberals were anything but that but WOW.

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Herd immunity is a scientifically verifiable phenomenon, and one of the best reasons for why vaccinations should be as widespread as possible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

I'm sorry if science hurts your feelings. Maybe you can hug it out with Jenny McCarthy.

I've vaccinated myself against Facebook interactions.

Facebook and vaccines. Joy.

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Originally Posted by Bailey Guns

I've vaccinated myself against Facebook interactions.

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I just isolate myself from the carriers.

I also don't understand how someone says they don't really care...but then create a thread to discuss their outrage.

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Originally Posted by Justin

Herd immunity is a scientifically verifiable phenomenon, and one of the best reasons for why vaccinations should be as widespread as possible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

I'm sorry if science hurts your feelings. Maybe you can hug it out with Jenny McCarthy.

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I don't care what Medical Science has proven or done for us. Jenny McCarthy knows!

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Originally Posted by Justin

Herd immunity is a scientifically verifiable phenomenon, and one of the best reasons for why vaccinations should be as widespread as possible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

I'm sorry if science hurts your feelings. Maybe you can hug it out with Jenny McCarthy.

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For the record, I don't agree with Jenny McCarthy, I'm just a critical thinker...

Given your argument for herd immunity, those children that are not immunized SHOULD be surrounded by children who are... Your suggestion to treat them like lepers will cause them to herd together and proliferate the disease...

Herd immunity isn't a "phenomenon", it's just an application of statistical analysis... But you make a giant leap when you assume those that are immunized will contract the disease... This will also further the cause of those who don't believe in them... Because your actions show you don't believe they work, either.

Simple answer, Eugenics [facepalm]

Instead of bracelets, why not something original and novel like say YELLOW STARS! That will help identify those disease carrying kids, real quick like.

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Originally Posted by Great-Kazoo

Simple answer, Eugenics [facepalm]

Instead of bracelets, why not something original and novel like say YELLOW STARS! That will help identify those disease carrying kids, real quick like.

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Tattoos on the forearms, maybe?

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Originally Posted by Gman

Tattoos on the forearms, maybe?

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i'd prefer closer to the wrist. less chance of covering it up with long sleeves. MMMMMM maybe FB can provide some input.

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Originally Posted by Great-Kazoo

Simple answer, Eugenics [facepalm]

Instead of bracelets, why not something original and novel like say YELLOW STARS! That will help identify those disease carrying kids, real quick like.

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I thought stars were for the good kids, and spots were bad...

There's a reason for the existence of most vaccines and it's not just to make money. In point of fact, the doctors and researchers who develop them rarely get rich from it. I didn't have to worry about a chicken pox outbreak in college because I'd had it as a kid but many of my classmates hadn't. The vaccine -- even though it was still in clinical trials at the time -- gave many of them some peace of mind and minimized disruptions. I've heard natural immunity from having the disease as a kid is preferable but I've also had shingles as a result and that's no fun -- and some kids develop other complications from chicken pox.

It's your decision as a parent but I would encourage people to be informed by facts rather than swayed by emotions. Jenny McCarthy didn't get famous for her intellect. 'nuff said.

Personally, I would quarantine my kids (if I had any) from other kids who are sick, not because of their vaccination status. The only vaccine I question at the moment is the flu vaccine; I wonder about the efficacy of something that targets 3 strains of flu predicted 2 years in advance and is ineffective against all other strains. I had to take it every year when I was active duty and I got sick more often then than since my retirement when I've ignored the flu vaccine.

FWIW, the term "anti-vaxers" sounds like hate speech [Coffee] and basic liberal name-calling in lieu of fact-based debate ... sort of like "climate deniers" or "gun fanatics". [fail]

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Originally Posted by 68Charger

Given your argument for herd immunity, those children that are not immunized SHOULD be surrounded by children who are... Your suggestion to treat them like lepers will cause them to herd together and proliferate the disease...

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Okay i'll say it.... GOOD!

No more anti-vaxers! No more Facebook debates.

I believe Doctors who invent vaccines genuinely believe they are inventing something to help people. There is no conglomerate of doctors and vaccination companies out to harm and maim a bunch of children.

To me, people who shut out or quickly dismiss medical science are not unlike those who dismiss a doctor's professional opinion that their child is brain dead and somehow will miraculously come back to life.


However! It is not the government's place to legislate parental decisions. Unless those parental decisions violate my rights.

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Originally Posted by rbeau30

Okay i'll say it.... GOOD!

No more anti-vaxers! No more Facebook debates.

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Really? kill off their children, that's your solution?
Besides, couldn't this lead to new strains that the vaccinated public is NOT protected against?

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Originally Posted by rbeau30

I believe Doctors who invent vaccines genuinely believe they are inventing something to help people. There is no conglomerate of doctors and vaccination companies out to harm and maim a bunch of children.

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http://www.naturalnews.com/036417_Gl...rck_fraud.html
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-styl...icle-1.1106795
http://projects.propublica.org/graphics/bigpharma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...al_settlements
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikakel...cted-to-fraud/
(yeah, these guys seem really ethical)

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Originally Posted by rbeau30

To me, people who shut out or quickly dismiss medical science are not unlike those who dismiss a doctor's professional opinion that their child is brain dead and somehow will miraculously come back to life.

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Not sure where this has any bearing on this discussion.

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Originally Posted by rbeau30

However! It is not the government's place to legislate parental decisions. Unless those parental decisions violate my rights.

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I agree with that, but is it their place to legislate liability away from companies (so they can't be sued when they release harmful products in vaccines?) and then turn around and FORCE civilians to use those products?

Then we agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by 68Charger

Really? kill off their children, that's your solution?

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It is not MY solution, it is the parent's solution. A vaccine is available to the parents for the children. Parents of said child choose to not give vaccine to child despite the risk.

I am not going to get upset by children dying or maimed by a horrible disease that has all but been eradicated by a proven cure because parents want to refuse this cure to their children. It is their choice, they will have to live with the choice.

Fair enough, I can see how you can come to that conclusion- it just seems... cold.

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Originally Posted by rbeau30

I am not going to get upset by children dying or maimed by a horrible disease that has all but been eradicated by a proven cure because parents want to refuse this cure to their children. It is their choice, they will have to live with the choice.

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What about the ones that were victims of a Mumps epidemic because Merck defrauded the gov't and public by vastly overstating the efficacy of their vaccine?

There are other reasons to fight corruption of big Pharma...

"Big Pharma". You realize that's a BS label invented by the same people who talk about the "eeeeevil" NRA and "Gun Industry" and who label vets as terrorists? Funny how none of them have any great expose about the "organic" or "natural" industries that charge 2, 3, 5 times as much for a product by putting those words on the label with no proven health benefits. Propublica is the same group that was in bed with the IRS on trying to tarnish, defame and harass Tea Party groups. I trust them even less than NPR, ABC, etc.

The lawsuit exemptions are there to encourage research and action, just as Good Samaritan laws protect non-professionals attempting to render first aid in good faith. They don't protect intentional bad actors or fraud. What's the incentive for someone to invest tens of millions of dollars and years of effort into lifesaving vaccines or medicines only to turn around and get sued on BS pretenses by ambulance-chasing lawyers and plaintiffs anxious to shift or find blame?

Businesses exist to make money. Government and political groups exist to seize power and/or exercise it. Most political or "action" groups are acting out of self-interest just as much as any business. The sooner people realize it, the better.

"big Pharma" and "Big Oil"...

[ROFL1]

Those damn corporations employing people, improving the health of the sick and providing us with products we use every day to make life enjoyable, fun and comfortable just piss me off.

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Originally Posted by Bailey Guns

"big Pharma" and "Big Oil"...

[ROFL1]

Those damn corporations employing people, improving the health of the sick and providing us with products we use every day to make life enjoyable, fun and comfortable just piss me off.

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On an unrelated note, what is done with the billions in fines listed in those "business deals" with the gov't?

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Originally Posted by 68Charger

What about the ones that were victims of a Mumps epidemic because Merck defrauded the gov't and public by vastly overstating the efficacy of their vaccine?

There are other reasons to fight corruption of big Pharma...

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I think this is a totally different issue this is nothing more than a company selling you something and it be a lemon. Except they are playing with lives. Therefore they are messing with my rights, and should be punished and if they are not that is fail.



And you know some of my beliefs are cold... but other than reaching into households and mandating every single " right " choice deemed by the masses for how you raise your child, you are not going to stop parents from acting upon uneducated decisions and killing their children, there is no real solution.

I cannot be an expert on immunology, so I defer to experts who say immunizations are good for my children. I am totally okay with doing a little research on my own, but I have a full time job and so does my wife, along with doing the things at home that require me to provide for my children's immediate needs and for researching other issues I believe that face my children's most immediate needs. If these choices kill my children, so be it. And while I may believe that immunizing is the right way to go, I respect the right of any parent to determine what is best for their child and live with those consequences. I am not going to dwell on the loss.

And because I believe the government should stay the hell out of our lives, and let us do what we please, I also believe that a parents' decisions and the fails as well as the success of a parent better the human race. I really don't care what the "right " answer is because the law of Darwin will always be the right answer. Eventually bad decisions (be it science is wrong, "big pharma" lies about the ingredients in the immunizations, and everyone dies from it someday, or we all decide that immunizations are bad and no one dies from cobalt poisoning or autism is eradicated) will take the people who make those bad decisions out of the gene pool, and we will find out what we should do about immunizations.

I feel bad that the children have parent who make bad decisions, but if the decisions are bad enough the herd will be culled of the folks who would teach their offspring to be as stupid as them. Therefore humans as a species are better for it.

I feel very much the same way about gov't intrusion, which is why I am suspicious when they protect an industry, and there are other suspicious activity...
"Big Pharma" is just a convenient term, perhaps I should use the more descriptive "Pharmaceutical companies who have already broken the law"

The fines and settlements on that Wiki page exceed $17B, and that's just the top 20... they seem like a fine, upstanding group whose products I'd love to embrace... [hahhah-no]

I also have a problem when the Gov't requires people to use a product, and limits the liability of the company making the product I'm forced to use to exactly ZERO
Maybe I'm just paranoid... but a good friend once told me "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you"

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Originally Posted by 68Charger

I feel very much the same way about gov't intrusion, which is why I am suspicious when they protect an industry, and there are other suspicious activity...
"Big Pharma" is just a convenient term, perhaps I should use the more descriptive "Pharmaceutical companies who have already broken the law"

The fines and settlements on that Wiki page exceed $17B, and that's just the top 20... they seem like a fine, upstanding group whose products I'd love to embrace... [hahhah-no]

I also have a problem when the Gov't requires people to use a product, and limits the liability of the company making the product I'm forced to use to exactly ZERO
Maybe I'm just paranoid... but a good friend once told me "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you"

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^ YUP ^


I think I just dislike people more than you do. LOL

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Originally Posted by th3w01f

but the term anti-vaxers felt very derogatory to me.

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As it should. Parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids because some goddamn celebrity says they shouldn't are detrimental to the health of the species. If they see the facts before them, and still refuse, they're pissing in the gene pool.

seeing as all my kids have had their vaccines and are fine, i do not have a gripe.

i do have a friend that has a little girl who was seeemingly perfectly normal before her vaccines and now has autism,

until the real link to autism is made there will continue to be those who grasp at whatever causal link the believe there to be. when your kid has issues everyone looks for the reason, without a clear reason they may blame things that may or may not have anything to do with it, for all they know the autism could be brought on by the hormones in cows milk, the flouride in your drinking water, or one of a hundred other chemicals that did not used to be a in a product that kids use today.

would i encourage parents to continue to vaccinate, yeah i would, without it the diseases that will come back into our world are far worse that the alternative.

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Originally Posted by rockhound

i do have a friend that has a little girl who was seeemingly perfectly normal before her vaccines and now has autism,

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So…seemingly normal for the first month or two?
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/...sch-0-6yrs.pdf

So for thread number 2 I figure I'll use this one.

My point wasn't against vaccinations, it was against a group of people who believe that another group who are exercising there rights (as they stand today) should be forced to have their children display a mark of their choice. I'd be willing to bet that the reason most children who go unvaccinated do so because of $$$ or laziness on the part of the parents. I respect those who do it based on their beliefs or concerns.

None of these unvaccinated children would become sick if it wasn't for an unvaccinated adult. These illnesses don't spontaneously come into being (ok no need for the chicken and egg argument).

I feel that if you really want to protect the "heard" there are other things that are more important and if you really want to have people wear a bracelet, tattoo or bar code, there are probably more important things to watch out for.... Of course, none of my ideas would be politically correct.

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Originally Posted by th3w01f

I'd be willing to bet that the reason most children who go unvaccinated do so because of $$$ or laziness on the part of the parents.

None of these unvaccinated children would become sick if it wasn't for an unvaccinated adult.

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I'd gladly take the opposite in either of these bets.