Tesla Motors announces new home battery

I look forward to this!

http://offgridquest.com/news/tesla-m...ew-home-batter


Elon Musk, CEO of Tesla Motors, announced Wednesday that the company is working on a new kind of battery that would be used to power homes. Based on Tesla’s lithium-ion battery technology, the new battery is expected to help the company become a leader in the growing home energy-storage market.

We are going to unveil the Tesla home battery, the consumer battery that would be for use in people’s houses or businesses fairly soon,” Bloomberg quoted Musk as saying.
During an earnings call last year, Musk had talked about his plans to make a product that would be fitted into consumers’ homes, instead of their cars. He had expressed an interest in the home energy-storage market and predicted enormous demand for battery systems for backup power at both homes and businesses.


“We are trying to figure out what would be a cool stationary (battery) pack,” Forbes had quoted Musk as saying at the time. “Some will be like the Model S pack: something flat, 5 inches off the wall, wall mounted, with a beautiful cover, an integrated bi-directional inverter, and plug and play.”
The Palo Alto, California-based automaker already produces residential energy-storage units through SolarCity Corp., a solar-power company that names Musk as its chairman and the biggest shareholder. In addition, Tesla’s Fremont, California, facility also produces large stationary storage systems for businesses and utility clients, Bloomberg reported.
“The long-term demand for stationary energy storage is extraordinary,” JB Straubel, Tesla’s chief technical officer, said. “We’ve put in a huge amount of effort there."


At this moment, many solar or wind-powered homes have to remain on a the grid because there has not been a way to store extra power for lean hours. If given a relatively cheap and reliable battery to hold the power needed, building off-grid in the country will become commonplace, and even in the city, self powered homes could be a less expensive option than being grid-tied.
Now who's ready to fire their monopoly power company?


Fossil fuels (like gasoline and diesel) are running out and getting a bad rap for nasty tailpipe emissions -- and rightly so. As governments and consumers demand new fuels and higher gas mileage, new sources of power, like batteries, are coming into play. The latest in battery technology is lithium-ion, and it's being used in the electric cars and hybrid cars of the future. Lithium-ion batteries are lighter than previous battery technology and they hold a charge a lot longer, too.
So, where does lithium come from? It comes from the Earth, of course, but it doesn't require strip mining or blowing the tops off mountains like other resources do. In fact, according to Reuters, most of the lithium on Earth is in South America, specifically in the Andes Mountains that run through Chile, Argentina and lithium market newcomer, Bolivia. There are also deposits in China and the U.S., some of which are mined traditionally from the rock.



But most often, lithium is found in briny underground ponds. The liquid is pumped out and left to dry in the sun. The resulting material is made into lithium carbonate and then processed into just lithium. This process accounts for a small part of an electric car's overall environmental impact; the copper and aluminum used in the battery actually do more damage. The lithium is then brought to a battery plant via plane, train, truck and boat -- none of which are using lithium-ion batteries themselves right now. Fossil fuels are hard to avoid at this point in the chain.
The plant assembles the batteries, and the batteries are placed in an electric vehicle, which has zero emissions. Electric cars don't even need tailpipes, since there's nothing but electricity coming out of the batteries.
Even after years of service in an electric vehicle, lithium-ion batteries still have a lot to give. It can often still hold as much as 80 percent of its charge, so it can be pressed into service as power storage for the grid, say, in conjunction with wind farms, according to TreeHugger.



All good things must come to an end, but lithium-ion batteries believe in life after death. When they're truly at the end of their usefulness, the batteries can be taken apart and their bits reused. Tesla, for example, recycles the cooling fluid, wires and electronics in its batteries. The rest is smashed to smithereens, melted down, separated into component metals and recycled.
Lithium-ion battery recycling facilities are coming online, but it'll take time for them to really ramp up. The batteries themselves, and the vehicles that use them, are just now coming to market. Any recycler who builds now will be ready when the first round of cells is ready for its next life.

(Apologies for the weird formatting of the text. There's a bunch of videos on the two-page article.)

mmm interesting-wonder what the cost will be ?

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Originally Posted by StagLefty

mmm interesting-wonder what the cost will be ?

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I'd be more curious if the battery comes with a fire suppression system installed.

As far as I know, to date the only Tesla battery fires have been due to road debris puncturing the battery packs. I'd be more worried about my gas furnace or water heater starting a fire before a Tesla battery.

Good solar panels with a Tesla battery solution could make me consider solar power in the future.

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Fossil fuels (like gasoline and diesel) are running out and getting a bad rap for nasty tailpipe emissions -- and rightly so. As governments and consumers demand new fuels and higher gas mileage, new sources of power, like batteries, are coming into play. The latest in battery technology is lithium-ion, and it's being used in the electric cars and hybrid cars of the future. Lithium-ion batteries are lighter than previous battery technology and they hold a charge a lot longer, too.
So, where does lithium come from? It comes from the Earth, of course, but it doesn't require strip mining or blowing the tops off mountains like other resources do. In fact,according to Reuters, most of the lithium on Earth is in South America, specifically in the Andes Mountains that run through Chile, Argentina and lithium market newcomer, Bolivia. There are also deposits in China and the U.S., some of which are mined traditionally from the rock.

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How, exactly, do they think these batteries get charged? [facepalm]


Yes, we need more nuclear but c'mon with some common sense.

We need coal powered cars. :D

the whole solar thing, to me, is still a ways off from being truly widely useful and cost efficient. right now your two main options are to lease them (which is nice in case of damage or failure but a worse way to go in terms of cost effectiveness) or buy them which is a heavier burden to yourself if something goes wrong. even with the tax breaks its a hard pill to swallow. it works out in the long term but tough to get into up front.

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Originally Posted by spongejosh

As far as I know, to date the only Tesla battery fires have been due to road debris puncturing the battery packs. I'd be more worried about my gas furnace or water heater starting a fire before a Tesla battery.

Good solar panels with a Tesla battery solution could make me consider solar power in the future.

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Agreed. However until they lower the price that's affordable i'm not interested. You do the numbers of overall cost vs return on savings, it doesn't add up. Lowest price we were quoted was $125 monthly as payments. That's more in 1 month than our total utilities are over 3. I'm sure there's low budget options, however they don't seem to be offering it to the public.

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Originally Posted by TheGrey

Fossil fuels (like gasoline and diesel) are running out

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Uh, what??? Lol... Hurray for stupid people and useless propaganda.

Anyway, on to the discussion of solar stuff.

This is intriguing, but still not ideal...

Lithium-ion isn't the best thing to use for solar. The way a LI battery works, their most efficient and useful portion is from ~95% charged to ~50% charged, then repeat. That extra 5% from 95 to 100 isn't actually a good thing to push for, which is exactly what a solar array does.

Who knows, Musk and his engineers are smart, so maybe they have accounted for this with a truly smart solar controller, but it will remain to be seen if the limits of LI batteries can be overcome. I see the future of batteries being in the drop of the price of super-caps. They eliminate the charge/discharge life cycle (effectively), and are the perfect solution for something that will see charging (even minimal charging) everyday. Yes, everyday. Solar panels still charge even on very cloudy days.

As for solar itself, it is certainly mainstream ready with the current cost of panels being ~$.50 per watt. The batteries are the bigger issue for cost and replacement, but with proper design, implementation, and maintenance, off grid solar is not only reliable, but it does make financial sense. My brothers and I just got done with a 6kw system for my parents. No more grid power except for the 2 220V circuits that have the welders, and other heavy equipment. The solar can run these, but why do it, unless necessary. We didn't grid tie it, but instead installed a separate panel next to the grid tie, and pulled everything but those circuits off. No need for grid tie permits or insurance, greatly reducing the unnecessary overhead.

The whole "lease" option makes absolutely zero sense to me. If you are going to pay for solar, split your house from the grid, and install solar to run some portion of the house. You instantly start saving money, and you can either "pay" yourself back for the initial investment, or you can roll the savings into growing your solar install, to move more circuits later. Literally, install a second panel, and move the circuits that you want to solar. Allows for a slower swap, and you can build your panel/battery banks as funds/needs allow.

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Originally Posted by Great-Kazoo

Agreed. However until they lower the price that's affordable i'm not interested. You do the numbers of overall cost vs return on savings, it doesn't add up. Lowest price we were quoted was $125 monthly as payments. That's more in 1 month than our total utilities are over 3. I'm sure there's low budget options, however they don't seem to be offering it to the public.

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Most people don't understand that the lease option isn't usually going to save someone money...

The "lease" business model makes sense for only one group... The group that is leasing the panels.

Lets look at some of the issues:

1. Inefficiency of panels when not installed properly.
- Look at where these panels are installed on most of these "lease systems". They aren't installed facing due south with the appropriate angle for this area (26* to 73* depending on season). They are stuck on the roof of the house, to match the pitch of the roof, and whatever direction it faces. This causes the panels to be far less efficient than they could be.
2. Spacial Efficiency of panels:
- Most of these groups are using low cost thin film, or perhaps a touch better, panels, which means that you are going to get about 60W per 3x3 panel. It takes a lot of 60W panels to make any significant amount of energy.
3. Grid tie distributed generation systems:
- Most of these lease groups don't tell their customers that the power company doesn't have to take the energy produced off their roof. They are only going to take the energy during peak use to offset their cost of generating it.
- Given this, when is the most common peak use? When the sun is out? Not usually.

Basically, they hamstring the capability of the solar panels to produce, and then offer the electricity to someone that doesn't have to take it.

I need to hire some of the sales people they employ... They must be dang good at their job.

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Originally Posted by Grant H.

. My brothers and I just got done with a 6kw system for my parents. No more grid power except for the 2 220V circuits that have the welders, and other heavy equipment. The solar can run these, but why do it, unless necessary. We didn't grid tie it, but instead installed a separate panel next to the grid tie, and pulled everything but those circuits off. No need for grid tie permits or insurance, greatly reducing the unnecessary overhead.

. If you are going to pay for solar, split your house from the grid, and install solar to run some portion of the house. You instantly start saving money, and you can either "pay" yourself back for the initial investment, or you can roll the savings into growing your solar install, to move more circuits later. Literally, install a second panel, and move the circuits that you want to solar. Allows for a slower swap, and you can build your panel/battery banks as funds/needs allow.

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Be interested in a write up / cost break down on your build & install. WE hope to be out of this place , eventually. BUT having said info, breakdown of cost is beneficial to us later on , as i'm sure it is for others today.

I agree, the article is written very glibly about fossil fuels and such. But the idea behind it is what grabbed my attention.

Grant H., thanks for taking the time to explain about batteries and solar panels. I know very little of either subject, so that is great information.

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Originally Posted by Great-Kazoo

Be interested in a write up / cost break down on your build & install. WE hope to be out of this place , eventually. BUT having said info, breakdown of cost is beneficial to us later on , as i'm sure it is for others today.

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Seconding this. A diagram of the install would be of interest to many of us here.

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Originally Posted by Post Toastie

Seconding this. A diagram of the install would be of interest to many of us here.

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+2

Trying to get the wife on board with grid tied/battery backup solar, but the cost and wiring issues are a stumbling block. If we could do it in stages, at a reasonable cost, she'd probably sign off on it.

As an aside to no one, I am always fascinated by the peak-oil adherents and the idea that we will 'run out'. Crude is mostly a mix of long and short chain hydrocarbons, hydrogen and carbon being in relatively abundant supply on our planet. The only thing we may ever run out of is cheap crude. If it gets expensive enough, we can use Fischer-Tropsch and our epic supply of coal to make diesel until the cows come home. And that's not pie-in-the-sky technology. Hell, we can make petroleum from algae. About a decade ago or so, I had smart, well-off friends who bought into the whole peak oil movement despite my best efforts to convince them to the contrary. Everyone thought we'd have $500 a barrel oil. Price went up, fracking emerged as a new technology at a competitive price point. Where's that $500 barrel of oil now?

As in so many other things, it's mostly politics and money, not fundamental scarcity, that sets price points.

I don't believe the human race has yet to run out of an energy source before finding or developing a new one, in our entire history.

Mmm ... not interested in funding anything in the California economy and perpetuating the decay they induce on American society.

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Originally Posted by JohnnyEgo

The only thing we may ever run out of is cheap crude.

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-and that's where things start to get interesting, not only on a micro level, but on a macro level as well. 'Nother topic for another thread though.

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Originally Posted by Aloha_Shooter

Mmm ... not interested in funding anything in the California economy and perpetuating the decay they induce on American society.

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Which interestingly enough is One of the main Oil producing states. Having driven through Tatf numerous times (one of CA greenies) best kept secrets. Not to mention home to the U.S Naval Oil reserve, and Oildale. To say petroleum based products may run out is humorous at best.
HOWEVER i like others are very interested in having a back up / Plan B as needed.

Maybe it's time to buy more Tesla Stock.

Huh... Apparently I should pay more attention to forums that I respond to... Lol.

I'll have some time to write it up early this week.

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Originally Posted by Grant H.

Huh... Apparently I should pay more attention to forums that I respond to... Lol.

I'll have some time to write it up early this week.

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Thank you.

Alright,

Travel for work has been odd, so my schedule has been odd...

The solar solution that we did at my parents, consists of some solar panels, a sh!t load of batteries, some wire, and a few semiconductors...

Glad I could help...




I keed, I keed...

The setup is 6KW of cheap thin film panels, that were bought several years ago (stupid being busy, delaying the fun projects), when a good deal on panels was $.90/watt. We gave less than that, but we are also tied into some interesting groups through work that get some decent deals here and there. The mounts are all aluminum angle (no rust, no need to paint). My parents have a great barn roof, that faces directly south, so the mounts are pretty straightforward. We made them a little more involved so that in the next few months we can add some electro-mechanical pitch adjustment. We didn't bother with east-west tracking, despite that raising the effectiveness of PV panels drastically, because we have enough panels that they only about 12-15 hours of good sun a week, to cover their average usage. The pitch adjustment is because my parents have 3 engineers for children, and we get bored and come up with good/stupid ideas, it will be a benefit, as the optimum pitch of the panels does change a lot here, but it isn't actually necessary.

For voltage, we decided on a 48VDC system, so that losses are minimal. The only downside to the 48V choice comes in the number/cost of batteries. We use a 6VDC 215AH battery that is designed for golf carts. They have some of the best battery life we have found, and provide a fairly simple install. When we did the battery banks, we installed them in a known dry area with climate control. The better you can control the temperature of the batteries, the longer they will last. Based on their need, we used 40 batteries. 8 wired in series to provide 48VDC, and 5 sets in parallel. We don't design battery banks to allow for greater than 50% discharge. Some might call it overkill, but it protects the batteries life, which lowers maintenance cost, and speeds payback.

We used all Outback isolated charge controllers and inverters, which do cost a bit more, but the feature set, the usability, and the general install is nice with their gear.

Hopefully, this helps. I'm happy to answer questions, as I'm sure there are details that some will want that I glossed over.

For cost ideas... Since I missed that point of questions in my response...

For panels, the cost was right around $.70/watt. For 6000 watts, that means the cost was $4200ish for the panels delivered. Also, if you shop around, panels can be as low as $.50/watt now.

The batteries can be had for $100ish from BatteriesPlus. $4000 in batteries, plus tax.

2x Outback MPPT Charge controllers - $550 each

2x Outback Offgrid Inverters - $1500 each

All in all:

$10800 plus mounting and minimal ancillary wiring.

I'm going to guess ~$12-13k in the whole thing.

My parents were spending ~$100-125/month on electric, so that looks like a 10yr pay off. If things had been a little less overbuilt, the cost would be less, and the pay off would be faster. You can also get lower cost charge controllers and inverters.

Like I said, my parents have three engineers for kids, and we usually over build/over design stuff.