Automotive help: coil pack replacement turns into a failed engine?

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03-03-2015, 15:27
cfortune

Automotive help: coil pack replacement turns into a failed engine?

I have a 2000 Toyota Land Cruiser that started misfiring on a cylinder back on Thursday. I took it into a shop near me on Friday and they replaced the coil pack yesterday. I also requested that they change the oil. Engine has about 213k on it. Initial symptoms were my check engine light came on after work on Thursday when I was about halfway home (I'm only 12 miles away from work). I noticed I got quite a bit of vibration when coming out of an idle state but other than that, it drove fairly normal. I stopped at Autozone on my way home and had them read the codes. Came back a misfire on cylinder 8. Then I drove it about 3 miles to the mechanic.

Well, they called me yesterday stating that the engine was having major problems after the coil replacement. I stopped by and the the engine is knocking like crazy. The engine is obviously ruined. I called a few Toyota dealerships and everyone I spoke with thought it was crazy to blame a total engine failure on putting a few miles (less that 10) on an engine that has a single cylinder misfiring. Most of them thought the oil change sounded more suspect than the misfire. The owner of the shop keeps putting it on "I don't know the condition of the vehicle when you brought it in" and is basically refusing to be of any help.

I just went in and got squared away with them and am having the vehicle towed to an actual Toyota dealership. Hopefully they can find the cause of the failure.

Do I have any recourse here? What would some of you have done in this situation? Is there any liability on the mechanic for a failure that happens when they're driving it (the in and out mileage log after picking it up was a whole 2 mile difference)? Anything else I should try and find out?
03-03-2015, 15:55
TFOGGER

2 miles without oil would be a problem...
03-03-2015, 16:03
cfortune

Quote:

Originally Posted by TFOGGER

2 miles without oil would be a problem...

My thoughts exactly. If these guys tried to cover their ass and finished off the oil change, would another tech be able to tell that was the cause of the engine malfunction? My first thought was they might have started on the oil change on Friday then neglected to finish it come Monday when they got the coil pack in. I brought that up to the owner this morning and he said "I guess that is a possibility" then later on the phone, after getting a little heated and at a loss for words, just repeated "Impossible".
03-03-2015, 16:16
TFOGGER

If they pull the pan and inspect the rod bearings, that will tell the tale. If it shows damage to more than 1 or 2 rod bearings, then it lost oil pressure. On a 200K engine, that is a possibility, but the coincidence that it happened right after an oil change would be hard to accept.
03-03-2015, 16:18
00tec

I drove Will's car to my house from his with a misfire. No problem. Google says that's 23 miles.
Turns out, one of those bunnies you haven't murdered chewed on the coil wires.

Someone forgot the oil
03-03-2015, 16:55
MarkCO

BEFORE anyone tears into it, file an insurance claim with the shop's carrier, or, at least, your insurance if you have the coverage.

Once it is opened, you might have an issue.

I do failure analysis, lots of engines, for a living and most mechanics are not aware of what needs to be preserved, nor the rights of the potential defendant to examine and witness the inspection.
03-03-2015, 18:07
Hound

Sounds like you need to call Mark.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkCO

BEFORE anyone tears into it, file an insurance claim with the shop's carrier, or, at least, your insurance if you have the coverage.

Once it is opened, you might have an issue.

I do failure analysis, lots of engines, for a living and most mechanics are not aware of what needs to be preserved, nor the rights of the potential defendant to examine and witness the inspection.
03-03-2015, 19:26
zteknik

"I don't know the condition of the vehicle when you brought it in."
That right there says a lot.
Now I don't know about other techs, but when I get a vehicle in wit an issue I make damn sure I know the condition of the vehicle so it will make sure that I don't do a faulty diagnoses..
Lots of guys will call a coil pack without even testing it,let alone test the compression or fuel system( other causes of a misfire condition
To me it sounds like the guy doesn't know his diagnostics and has some schleps working for him.

Take it to a reputable dealer ( save your tow receipts, rental receipts and so on ) and do like Mark said . Get pictures and documentation on everything.
If it proves out the shop toasted your engine sue him for the damages and let the dealer do the work.
03-04-2015, 10:13
cfortune

Some good advice here. Thanks guys.
03-04-2015, 14:03
CHA-LEE

And this is why I always change my own oil.

The vast majority of the time the "Mechanics" that get put on Oil Changing duty are the guys that suck at being Mechanics.
03-05-2015, 08:24
rockhound

well you are going to be out some money, lets say he did fry your motor, what is a 213K mile motor worth? nothing,,,, What are you going to do go down to the junk yard and grab another 200K plus motor and have it installed?

I dont think so. you might get his labor to out it in, but i would bet that most courts would say your motor was past it useful life anyway. you might get labor and a couple hundred bucks towards a motor, a newer motor will be out of pocket money for you. He is not required to pay for a better motor.
03-05-2015, 12:14
cfortune

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockhound

well you are going to be out some money, lets say he did fry your motor, what is a 213K mile motor worth? nothing,,,, What are you going to do go down to the junk yard and grab another 200K plus motor and have it installed?

I dont think so. you might get his labor to out it in, but i would bet that most courts would say your motor was past it useful life anyway. you might get labor and a couple hundred bucks towards a motor, a newer motor will be out of pocket money for you. He is not required to pay for a better motor.

I get that if they were found to be in the wrong that they would not be required to buy a better motor. Not exactly easy to find one with that mileage though, which I think is to your point. I can get a motor for $1,000, it's the labor as well as the principal/accountability of the issue. I've already gone and traded in my summer vehicle for something I can get around in because I couldn't afford to miss anymore work.

I just spoke with the guy again, this is probably going to turn into a court case. He refuses to put an insurance claim in. The dealership I took it to said it's obvious the vehicle lost oil pressure and the clean oil that is in it is riddled with metal shavings. The initial shop made no note of that when they changed the oil. The guy's answer "What obligation would I have to tell you that there is metal shavings in your oil?". Real class act over there. He also claims I'm making up what the dealer found and speaks like a child when he starts getting upset. It's comical yet frustating.
03-05-2015, 12:26
Irving

If you can find out who his insurance company is, you don't need his permission to turn in a claim.
03-05-2015, 14:58
cfortune

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irving

If you can find out who his insurance company is, you don't need his permission to turn in a claim.

He told me it couldn't be done without his involvement and he feels that its an admission of guilt. I highly doubt he will give me the name to file a claim on my own. Thanks for the info though Irving, I'll still run it by him. I'm assuming as soon as that happens, his insurance will be the ones handling the investigation?
03-05-2015, 15:11
Irving

Correct. A few insurance companies rely on agents to turn in commercial claims. In those cases the agent can get in the way. You might take Mark's advice and turn into you're own company to see if they can assist you.
03-05-2015, 17:01
sniper7

Sunday like a small claims court issue is in your future. Get his info, address, business stuff, any paperwork he gave you. Initial symptoms of the vehicle, doubt you took pictures of the codes at autozone but those would be helpful. I'd research some other mechanic forums and get statements of what a misfire is and how replacing the ignition coil wouldnt lead to a engine failure with metal shavings. Also timelines of engine failures in that particular vehicle to prove it isn't coincidence.
id get all the paperwork and statements ready from the Toyota dealership about metal in fresh oil, what they noticed and the history they had had with engine failures versus ignition coils going on and misfires on cylinders.
firgure out how to get them served, you will have to get somebody not associated with the case to do this.
id wait until I put in a newer motor in it, or get this rebuilt, save all receipts, add that plus court costs and reasonable expenses to the total and let the magistrate figure it out. Maybe the guy will settle with you.

or just bring up this info before you get np anything done and tell him you will be filing small claims after your engine is rebuilt.

engines don't just start knocking out of nowhere, it is almost always associated with loss of oil and failure of bearings. I'd out money they ran that thing without oil in it....one guy drained the oil while the other was doing the ignition coil, he starts it up to check timing, gets it timed and running right...then other guy goes oh shit there isn't any oil in there and bam...you have a knock. oh...well we can out in fresh oil and cover this right up!