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I'm not sure if this is the right area. Admins move if not. I was wondering why some people refuse to support the NRA? If you don't then tell me why and who you do support if you have an alternative organization who fights for your gun rights? I send stuff to the NRA and the Second Amendment Foundation (SAF).
Benefactor Life Member. But when I send money, I usually send it to the ILA...the political lobbying arm of the NRA.
If anything the basic membership is worth it for the gun insurance at a minimum. Anybody who owns a gun should be a member just for that protection alone
I agree to be at least a basic member is worth it, but I hear a lot of people bashing the NRA and saying they will never join. Yet, they complain about losing gun rights. I'm just wondering who they have fighting for them if not the NRA? 100 million gun owners yet only 5% are NRA members. Has to be a reason why only 5 million people are members. With this election year coming, we need to find someone to fight for us.
Now that they've gone away from the fudd centric system they had before. I support them.
belizejet, there have been a number of pro-2A organizations that bash the NRA, primarily because the NRA will sometimes agree to a half loaf when it looks like our whole loaf is being taken away. There are other reasons -- Wayne LaPierre's constant fund-raising and self-enrichment rather annoy me -- but I believe it's primarily the question of when or how to compromise.
Some organizations don't believe in any compromise, feeling that puts us on a slippery slope toward losing our 2A rights. The NRA in contrast tends to work with legislators when they see some legislation affecting the 2A is going to pass in order to make whatever passes less damaging. This approach is what gave us the Gun Control Act and the National Firearms Act but you could argue more onerous restrictions would otherwise have taken effect due to the mood of the country at the time.
The other thing that gets the NRA bashed is legal strategy -- when and where to sue. The NRA has at times opposed some lawsuits or court cases, presumably because they feared a loss would be even more damaging to all gun owners even when the situation was clearly injust for a particular gun owner.
You'll have to make up your mind which argument and organization you're in favor of. I personally am a Patron Life member of the NRA, Life member of SAF, and Life member of USA Shooting. In my mind, they all do good work.
Both myself and my wife are members, but why do they have to send 10, 15 renewal letters a year (between the two of us), when our memberships are not even remotely close to expire?
How much money is being wasted in postage and handling, nationwide, each year?
This pisses me off to no end, kind of like seeing a fire engine with it's full crew and an ambulance dispatched to pick up a drunk passed out on the street!
But I digress...
Basic member, as are my wife and daughter. Donations sent to ILA.
Member. ILA donations sent periodically.
Wife & I are lifetime members. While I don't agree with everything they do . . . or that they don't do . . . I think the benefits and influence they offer are hard to argue with.
Not a fan of LaPierre for a variety of reasons.
The NRA isn't perfect, but no 2A organization that I can think of swings as big a bat in DC so I send them the annual check and a little extra to NRA-ILA from time to time.
As far as those that whine about junk mail from them, you simply call the NRA and ask to be taken off the junk mail list. I've not received a single piece of mail other than my ONE annual renewal letter in close to 20 years. A 90 second phone call to opt out of junk mail is not that hard guys...
I've been a long time member. I opted out of the junk mail way back and have probably only received a handful of letters in the last twelve years. Without the junk mail pleading for money they're not so bad. I figure they deserve a little extra as well just because they are such a big target for the anti's. With all the anti action oriented at the NRA other organizations are free to do what they got to do.
Interesting things to think about. I'll still send my support though. They carry the biggest bat for sure.
That sounds more like RMGO than NRA. NRA opposed the legal strategy in DC v. Heller because they were afraid of a loss at the Supreme Court level sealing a national precedent that can continue to be argued when the state-level precedents conflict. They got onboard when it appeared the legal strategy was a winner. It's unsatisfying but it's smart politics -- and by the way, shopping cases and forums is exactly what the liberals do to us. It's worked fairly well for the liberals until recently -- and is still working for them on other issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by foxtrot
No argument here but the Boy Scouts and some states mandate NRA certification because it's an easy out legally and financially. They don't have to create their own courses and assume liability for the courses or instructors nor oversee administration of the certifications, just point to a certification source they consider acceptable and require it.Quote:
Originally Posted by foxtrot
Ummm ... WRONG. First, the NRA's priority in instruction is SAFETY. Second, the rule as taught in class is "always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use." Self-defense and home defense firearms are presumed to be ready-to-use at the owner's discretion so there's no problem keeping them loaded. Third, NRA instruction is to treat every firearm as if it's loaded until proven otherwise. As a certified instructor, you should know these things already so I'm confused by your misstatement.Quote:
Originally Posted by foxtrot
That's not the fault of the NRA. State curriculums are up to state legislatures. The NRA just happens to be the largest training organization in the country and they're not state specific. That's why the NRA Basic Pistol class is generic. I'd say the Basic Pistol Class, while not exactly what I teach, is certainly worthwhile to a novice shooter. An instructor's responsibility is to always build on to and expand a student's knowledge base.Quote:
Originally Posted by foxtrot
Their training methods and information are dated, no doubt. But that doesn't mean it's a bad place to start.
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxtrot
Exactly. That's even NRA Rule #3...hardly the priority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aloha_Shooter
This is how I feel. As far as junk mail goes, you'd be surprised how much of an impact even 1% retention makes. They wouldn't do it if it were only a waste of money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wulf202
Last year, my husband joined up. I wanted to join as well, but they "couldn't" sign me up. Instead, they wanted me to call the following week and give them my money. The reason they couldn't sign me up at the same time? "They weren't set up for signing us both up at the same time."
A massive Association that isn't set up to take in new memberships for a husband and wife? Excuse me? What the hell is that about?
They called my husband every other week, lobbying for donations. He asked them politely to take us off their calling list, and they started calling MY phone number to solicit for donations instead. Me, who was not a member because "they weren't set up for that."
Then there were the mail solicitations. Good lord, how much do they pay for postage and brochures, letters and other correspondence? I also have to wonder if they sold our information, because the "pre-approval" offers for re-financing and credit cards have increased exponentially.
Personally, it was irritating in the extreme. We support organizations that we believe in, but we also want to be left the hell alone. We're not an endless supply of funds, and resent being treated as cash cows. We may join again, but we're going to have to establish some firm boundaries with this association before we do so.
Top 3 reasons why the NRA is not the be-all and end-all in the 2nd amendment world:
#1) The NRA's 1st, 2nd, and 3rd priorities are making money for the NRA - they don't actually give a shit about the guns, your rights, or anything else unless it helps them to make money. Do not ever, for even a brief second, think that the NRA is there to help you - they are there to perpetuate themselves.
#2) The NRA's choices for political endorsement have nothing to do with your gun rights. They have to do with who can provide them access to power and who they can bully (via threat, coercion, blackmail, or motherhood and apple-pie). Again, its not about your rights - its about their pocketbook.
#3) The NRA does not actually want to push the envelope and try to really settle the 2nd amendment debate or create long-lasting, far-reaching, set in concrete rulings. They prefer to mire around in city/state legal battles that go back and forth but do not really change anything important. This allows them to aggressively attempt to get more money out of people by claiming that they are doing something good. If they actually did their job and pushed hard for a strong ruling (either way) on the 2nd amendment they would effectively put themselves out of a job - and that goes against #1 above.
Now, that said, I am a Benefactor, Golden Eagle, Political Action Major Donor, and a bunch of other stuff. It just so happens that the NRA's desires and my desires overlap to a certain point. There are MANY other pro-2nd amendment orgs that are WAY more effective than the NRA when it comes to major legal work being done (SAF, CalGuns, Cato Institute, Independence Institute, etc.); but the NRA has a name that equates to a large swinging dick, and they have leveraged that power effectively for many years. However, I believe that their time in sun is _slowly_ coming to an end unless they can pull their head out of their backside and start actually doing stuff other than fear mongering and begging for money.
I have said all of the above to the NRA board directly (verbatim) in 2010 and 2012; I have also said it on a number of occasions to high level members of the NRA staff. For the most part, they agreed with me.
Also, to answer your question a bit more: http://jpfo.org/articles-assd02/nugent-open-letter.htm
Everyone should read that.
What one needs to realize regarding the NRA BASIC PISTOL course, is it's just that a BASIC course. Geared for the beginner, not Mr or Mrs, I'm ready to step up my game shooter. There are folks i have given classes to the basic wasn't basic enough. Others i tailored a class for that shooter.
The NRA is the biggest bat when it comes to politics, which IMO is where it has lost sight of the larger picture.
However with that $50M grass roots group and others out to make the NRA Obsolete, one must do what one can to make sure that doesn't happen. That's where the ILA comes in and get sour money.
http://training.nra.org/nra-gun-safety-rules.aspx
The whole reason you're doing all of this subparagraph is that you're treating the gun as if it was loaded until proven otherwise. I have always heard and taught to treat the gun as if it was loaded in every NRA course I've participated in. I don't know where you've seen otherwise. I deal with a limited circle of instructors but every one of us goes into great detail on proving a weapon is safe and it's in the material.Quote:
3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety device if possible, and, if the gun has a magazine, remove it before opening the action and looking into the chamber(s) which should be clear of ammunition. If you do not know how to open the action or inspect the chamber(s), leave the gun alone and get help from someone who does.
I don't know where you're drawing a subtle assumption that students don't have to treat a gun as a lethal weapon. I said, "treat every firearm as if it's loaded until proven otherwise." [emphasis added]. You have removed the magazine, opened the action, and done a chamber check so you can clean the gun at home -- oops, under your interpretation, the only way I can clean the gun is at the range because I have to keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction ("so that even if it were to go off it would not cause injury or damage") and there is no safe direction in most homes.
Sorry, the only issues I'm seeing are self-imposed. I respect almost all of your posts but I think your complaint here is off-base and doesn't fit in with any of the training I have received or given.
He already gave you an acceptable answer. If I field strip a pistol it's still a firearm. But now I KNOW it's unloaded and safe to handle like it's unloaded. Granted, the circumstances under which you might treat a gun as if you KNOW it's unloaded are few but they do exist.
If I have the bolt removed from a bolt action rifle and want to check the muzzle using a bore light and I've emptied the magazine and checked the chamber I KNOW that gun's unloaded and it's safe for me to treat it like it's unloaded by looking down the barrel using the light.
I agree that accidents happen because people are sure their gun is unloaded when it isn't...for whatever reason. Guns are deadly...but they can be made safe.
It's like Rule #2...Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target and you're ready to fire. With several modern guns you'd never be able to field strip them if you didn't pull the trigger in order to field strip them. Few things are absolute.
The horse is dead...but beat it if you need to to make yourself feel better.
I just added butter to my popcorn, MMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Why is there a debate about this? If you always treat as firearm as if it's loaded, even when doing things like field stripping, there will be no issues. The example with the bolt being taken out, I still wouldn't point the gun at the cat, or would move the barrel to point at the ground if someone walked into the room, as I'm sure each and everyone in this thread would as well. It's just a good habit. Since we all do it, doesn't seem to be any reason to discuss it.
This thread has gone way off the rails from what, I thought, was the original question. So in an effort just to poke Foxtrot with a sharp stick:Quote:
Originally Posted by foxtrot
Attachment 58904
There. In the real world I hand you one of those - and now I have now pointed a firearm at you. I stopped treating it like it was loaded. Think of the children...... Admonish me as you see fit.
As was said above. There are no absolutes in this world. As much as we want to look for them they don't exist.
How about force on force...like with MILES training? Real guns, pointed at people all the time. Violates about every one of the Big 4. But it's done.
The 3 NRA rules of Firearm Safety:
1. ALWAYS Keep the gun pointed in a safe direction
Operative Phrase: Safe Direction
Definition of Safe Direction: The place where if a round were to be fired there would be ZERO loss of life, Injury, and MINIMAL property damage.
2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
Describe and demonstrate what straight and off the trigger looks like.
3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
Operative Phrase: Ready to use.
Self Defense vs. Hunting,
Competition, long term storage etc.
The NRA does an excellent job at providing firearms training for both students and Instructors. The top down business plan (typical of large organizations) over selling and over hyping of what the NRA actually does can be off putting for most folks. But the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I think that you will find though that the face of the organization is changing, look up Colion Noir for instance.
P. S. PM me Foxtrot if you would like to take an NRA course. It's on me.
IBTL
Was there something you were actually trying to say or accomplish with that? I am looking for a question or even a comment on the OP's original query. Failing that all I see is poor ranting. What is it you wanted/needed to say?Quote:
Originally Posted by HipReggie
Now where's that "don't feed the troll" button (reference to HR just to be clear)?
No need. Your rant was mindless enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by HipReggie
Molan Labe - I'm a busy person. I've had plenty of NRA courses. I'll offer you one of my classes free on the house. I generally teach to average and experienced shooters for carry and defense, and their satisfaction rate and retention is incredibly high. I don't have a need for "filler" material, and they don't get bored. I don't target new shooters as sure, the NRA Basic pistol is just that.
What NRA class is there that targets Colorado concealed carry.... oh right, there isn't one.
Simmer down there brother, no need to get your jimmies in a bunch! What's your definition of filler material?
Yes the NRA Basic classes are long, and CAN be boring, just like people manage to make history boring, it's not the material it's the teacher.
In my classes we go out of our way to provide our students with information regarding CO laws and statutes pertaining to the usage and carry of firearms presented by a Law Enforcement Instructor, and active duty Police Sergeant. We also bring in reps from U.S. Law Shield that provide access to 24/7 Legal advice and representation for firearms related incidents. Students get to handle every action type of handgun, and practice loading/unloading, and the manual of arms. Classes have 2-3 hours of range time built in and students can use the range after class concludes (another 3+ hours of shooting if students are inclined to take advantage). And of course students are encouraged to take additional classes (Not just NRA) covering mindset, drawing from a holster, marksmanship, tactics etc.
With rule number one ALWAYS Keep the gun (muzzle) pointed in a safe direction. If people aren't treating the firearm as if it was loaded, which, I am certainly not advocating, and they were to have a negligent discharge guess what won't happen? That's right Zero loss of life, injury, and minimal property damage. Wether you preach the 3 rules, or the 4, or the 5, or the 6 rules of Firearms Safety at the end of the day it's about making folks safer, and giving them a foundation, a basis for their responsibility towards firearms.
Also the NRA does have CHL specific classes, Personal Protection Outside the Home. 3x 6 Hour day course.
That sounds like a pretty absolute statement. PERIOD.Quote:
Originally Posted by foxtrot
But what do I know? I'm apparently an NRA-worshiping retard because I made the awful mistake of attempting to discuss this with you.
I'll defer to your obviously superior knowledge, ignore the back-peddling and let you continue with yourself.