Car crashes

After looking at the news article on the Boulder shooting, I saw another headline that caught my eye about a rear-end crash killing 2 people

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/boul...rear-end-crash

I of course feel bad for the friends and family of the couple in question and the courts will deal with the juvenile driver who rear-ended the couple. What intrigued me was that the driver who rear-ended them (in a 2002 VW Jetta) was released from the hospital with minor injuries. The couple was in a 2010 Honda Fit, strapped in with the seat belts, but taken to the hospital in critical condition and then had life support turned off after a 3-4 days.

Just wondering if any of the insurance or LEO guys here have better insight into a crash like this. It's not like a Jetta is HUGE and there's a LOT of crumple zone between the rear end and the front seats on a Fit. Granted, the offending driver was doing at least 45 mph with minimal braking when he hit them but I would have thought the couple that died were in the best possible circumstances being supported in the back by the seats, belts on, etc. while the juvenile would have been in the worst circumstance.

File this under "sub-compacts are scary" or was there more at play than the article suggests?

Many factors involved. Age and fitness level of the injured are often not considered unless you live in Phoenix or Florida. Minor accidents in these places are often referred to as "fender bender fatalities."

Position of passengers probably plays a role as well. If the car is stopped and the occupants are leaning toward each other kissing, that'd be a pretty terrible time to get rear ended I'd think. How terrible.

I do accident reconstruction professionally and a 45 mph impact is significant. Front seat seatbacks, especially in the Japanese cars, collapse in the range of 30-50 mph with a rear impact, depending on several factors. There is also no airbag protection for a rear impact, if the airbags were even "awake". On some vehicles, a minimum speed (from about 12-18 mph) is required for the airbag module to be awake and capable of triggering. If the seat back and headrest are not oriented optimally, an occupant can slide over the back of the seat/headrest and suffer significant neck injuries. Most people sit too close to the steering wheel and lay their seatbacks too far back to be optimal for a high speed rear impact. Most foreign car makers, and Honda is included here, meet the minimum standards for rear impact protection, but exceed the standards for front impact protection.

Another thing to consider is that vehicle safety ratings are significantly flawed in that they only are comparisons to other cars "in class". In addition, the ratings in part are based on $ to repair and so cheaper cars rate higher than more expensive case. Compacts and sub-compacts, even with a 5 star rating are, at best, a 2 or 3 star in the average accident. 3/4 Ton American trucks are some of the safest vehicles (for the occupants) to drive. Small mini-vans are some of the most dangerous to drive. Don't even get me started on the battery packs in the hybrids.

Hmm ... hadn't thought about the occupants leaning over and smooching at the light.

Thanks for the feedback on accident reconstruction. I knew 45 mph as significant but was just trying to envision the physics at play and trying to figure out how they got so hurt under that geometry. I knew the crash ratings were flawed due to be being "in class" but I had never heard about people sliding over the back of the seat/headrest. I feel bad for everyone involved in that accident (wouldn't want to carry that guilt with me for the rest of my life like the kid probably will) but am glad to learn from it.

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Originally Posted by MarkCO

. 3/4 Ton American trucks are some of the safest vehicles (for the occupants) to drive.

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As a 2500 driver, this makes me happy.

The issue of front seat backs collapsing has been getting more attention recently.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by HBARleatherneck

crap, I drive a one ton truck. I guess mine isnt as safe as the 3/4 ton. damn.

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Use a hole saw to lighten it up.

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Originally Posted by HBARleatherneck

crap, I drive a one ton truck. I guess mine isnt as safe as the 3/4 ton. damn.

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One tons have a longer stopping distance and more mass so they do not do quite as well in avoidance, or in a rollover, as a group, compared to 3/4 tons. But they are certainly safer than the standard sedan.

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Originally Posted by HBARleatherneck

crap, I drive a one ton truck. I guess mine isnt as safe as the 3/4 ton. damn.

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I drive a ton, I wonder where that ranks me.

As others mentioned, a 45 mph impact is pretty significant. Even if the projectile only weighs 2,500 pounds.

If you've ever seen footage of some of those crash tests done at 30 mph they are pretty impressive. Factor in another 15 mph and it gets exponentially worse. Although, impacting another vehicle versus a fixed object likely takes the level of devastation down a bit.

Mark is pretty much spot on. I have seen some smaller cars do well. I T-Boned a lady in Ft Collins many years ago. I hit her doing 45 smack in the middle of the passenger side front door (there was someone sitting there). Even with the side impact airbags (saved her life) she had a lacerated liver, broken ribs and a punctured lung. She was in a Volvo.

Seat belts are everything, especially in a rollover. The auto accident scene I transported the least number of times was a rollover. Either the occupants were out of the car walking around (they were restrained) or they were out of the car dead (they were not restrained). Very rarely was there an emergent return from a rollover. Think Rusty Wallace (Massive Rollover like 30 times) vs Dale Earnhardt (Straight into the wall)

Every accident is very different as to the mechanism. Speed, location of impact, type of vehicle, all go into how bad an accident is. All in all there are very safe vehicles out there, but even a stupid driver can make the safest vehicle unsafe. Here are a few pics from some accidents I ran on. There were so many more that were even worse, whenever I go back to Omaha I visit the scene of one my worst calls ever, 4 victims, 2 fatalities all high school kids. I was 22 at the time and it was a horrible scene. If you ever take any of my classes just ask, I will tell you about it.

vs. tree (Engine into front seat, this was a fatal)
Attachment 65549

Range Rover vs. Truck (Loaded with asphalt shingles) He was going very fast and hit this truck going very slow. This was a fatal as well (week later)
Attachment 65550

Attachment 65551

Attachment 65552Attachment 65553

The truck was about 22 mph into the rear of a stopped semi, the mustang was 44 mph differential head on.

The IIHS does not recommend these tiny cars like the Fit, as cars that are slightly larger are more survivable and get about the same mileage. Sometimes, it just comes down to physics and the bigger vehicle wins (subcompact vs. SUV vs. tractor trailer vs. train).

Another thing to think about as well, is the amount of Gs the body is receiving. Even with all the crumple zones, there is still a lot of force going through to the passengers. It can reach over 45Gs. Which in return will damage the internal organs and cause internal hemorrhaging, ruptured organs etc.

Yep comes down to physics. I laugh at those who talk about the crash pod in SMART cars. It may not get damaged in a wreck but the force of the collision has to go somewhere. Without sufficient mass or large crumple zones in the vehicles it will go to the passengers.

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Originally Posted by SamuraiCO

Yep comes down to physics. I laugh at those who talk about the crash pod in SMART cars. It may not get damaged in a wreck but the force of the collision has to go somewhere. Without sufficient mass or large crumple zones in the vehicles it will go to the passengers.

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True. Sad thing is that, at the forcing of the Insurance Industry, some car makers spend more time attempting to get 5 stars on the 5 mph bumper test than protecting occupants from side and rear impacts. Do not get me wrong, we have incredibly safe cars today as compared to those from the mid 1990s and older. But one of the safest cars on the road, pound for pound, could not survive in the marketplace (Saturn). The Ford/Mercury Taurus/Sable was another very safe platform that went by the wayside. Volvos are nowhere near as safe as they were at one time. The drive has been towards lowering repair costs for the 70% of the more common crashes in the past decade as opposed to decreasing lower extremity injuries and increasing survivability. It is almost like we came so far in such a short time while not seeing the data for what it is. While cars got safer and safer, the number of crashes was increasing and the number of deaths has held constant. The collision avoidance systems we are seeing now have been possible for a long time, but the market did not demand them. Cell phones and Ipods are likely a big driver of customer demand for these new systems.

What sucks is when a "safety" system hampers or damages. Like Anti-lock brakes when you are stuck in snow, or a speed limiter kicking in while a cop is on a curve. The big stick in the auto-industry right now with the collision avoidance is how to program the morality. For example. If you approach an intersection on a green light and a pedestrian steps into the crosswalk in front of you and insufficient distance to stop, does the program strike the pedestrian, steer you into a telephone pole, or veer you left into a van full of kids? I have always said you can not legislate morality, but soon, will a programmer decide your fate, or will you?

iRobot here we come. "You had a 60% chance of survival and the kid only had 10%. It did the logical thing by saving you".

I am NOT a fan of technology. It done us a lot of good but we have crossed into the threshold of it making us dumb.

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Originally Posted by cmailliard

Mark is pretty much spot on. I have seen some smaller cars do well. I T-Boned a lady in Ft Collins many years ago. I hit her doing 45 smack in the middle of the passenger side front door (there was someone sitting there). Even with the side impact airbags (saved her life) she had a lacerated liver, broken ribs and a punctured lung. She was in a Volvo.

Seat belts are everything, especially in a rollover. The auto accident scene I transported the least number of times was a rollover. Either the occupants were out of the car walking around (they were restrained) or they were out of the car dead (they were not restrained). Very rarely was there an emergent return from a rollover. Think Rusty Wallace (Massive Rollover like 30 times) vs Dale Earnhardt (Straight into the wall)

Every accident is very different as to the mechanism. Speed, location of impact, type of vehicle, all go into how bad an accident is. All in all there are very safe vehicles out there, but even a stupid driver can make the safest vehicle unsafe. Here are a few pics from some accidents I ran on. There were so many more that were even worse, whenever I go back to Omaha I visit the scene of one my worst calls ever, 4 victims, 2 fatalities all high school kids. I was 22 at the time and it was a horrible scene. If you ever take any of my classes just ask, I will tell you about it.

vs. tree (Engine into front seat, this was a fatal)
Attachment 65549

Range Rover vs. Truck (Loaded with asphalt shingles) He was going very fast and hit this truck going very slow. This was a fatal as well (week later)
Attachment 65550

Attachment 65551

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Aside for suicide (people commit suicide in the vehicle alot) 90% of the fatal MV crashes I work are due to roll over and not wearing a seatbelt.

This is a really cool thread! Even though it's discussing tragedy.

Vehicle size made a huge difference when we replaced our family car a few years back. We are both natives but have never been SUV people. Came from families that never even owned an SUV. Thought they were kind of silly when you know how to drive in snow.

But we got a large SUV just because everyone here has one and thus the odds of being in an accident with a larger vehicle are high.

Here in Colorado in icy conditions, a 2014 Mercedes Benz GL450 that took a Ford F350 doing 45-50 nearly head on and stopped primarily by the driver's door. It took emergency responders about 15 minutes to cut the door off.


http://mbworld.org/forums/attachment...0-img_1361.jpg

http://mbworld.org/forums/attachment...0-img_1364.jpg

Severe concussion and whiplash for the driver. State patrol and paramedics stated that the strength of the car saved his life. As far as Mercedes Benz is aware, there have been no deaths in a GL class X166.

The car was totaled and the owner is using his insurance money to buy a new 2017 GLS X166.
http://mbworld.org/forums/gl-class-x...led-gl450.html

And... related to the OP:

http://www.9news.com/news/crime/17-y...reck/214827332

Our family went through an ordeal like this (no deaths). We hired an accident investigator from Denver to help our case.

One ne of the worst experiences of our lives.

Icy roads change things exponentially when it comes to collisions.

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Originally Posted by Graves

Icy roads change things exponentially when it comes to collisions.

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Yes it does. Besides the road hazards it provides I think it also numbs peoples brains.

Got T-boned during one of out storms this year. Because of icy roads, when I got hit, my car was pushed off the road, easing the impact. If it were dry, the car would have "stuck" and the impact force would have been greater, as well as potentially setting off the side bags.