If one were to buy and mill the pockets on an 80% lowers, but NOT drill the holes thru the side, would one be able to sell it like that without background check??
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If one were to buy and mill the pockets on an 80% lowers, but NOT drill the holes thru the side, would one be able to sell it like that without background check??
I would believe that it's not an 80% anymore and not transferrable unless you did the BGC. But I'm just guessing!Quote:
Originally Posted by fmj50
BCG required. If it was not, the people that sell 80% lowers would sell them that way. They would sell a LOT more of them
No bueno.
Bad juju...
Not only would a BGC be required, but you would also be required to be 07 FFL (manufacturing).
80% lowers are just all around a bad idea. I have lost count how many I've worked on and found them improperly finished, improperly made from the factory, too soft an aluminum... Throw in one can't get the aluminum surface hardened by some sort of finish coating and you have a lower that's going to wobble out the holes in no time. Waste of money and time.
Don't do it. Not worth the hassle. I did one through Ares Armor in 2012 in SoCal. Had to trash it in 2015.
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
Aluminum or their plastic ones?Quote:
Originally Posted by MOLON LABE
If you agree with the ares armor coloring book you're ok.
Every atf letter on the subject says it's a gun though.
Forged Aluminum in the white.Quote:
Originally Posted by 00tec
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
Hey SA if your so against 80% lowers and if they are just a bad idea then why were you grilling me about how to anodize one. You obviously don't care for them. Were you even interested in the anodizing or were you just trying to be an asshole in my thread cause you don't like 80% lowers. Also why are you working on 80% lowers if your so against them and they are crap? All the reputable gunsmiths I know refuse to even touch them because it's up to the owner to complete them.Quote:
Originally Posted by SA Friday
If you're done with this forum, be done with it. No one likes a sniffling little baby that sulks around every where. People were "grilling" you about the anodizing because they were interested in whether you did it yourself, or had someone else do it for you. If you did it yourself, they were interested in a write up of your experience. No one needs your help to learn a new skill, but they'd surely be interested in what you did, and whether you'd do the same thing again or make any changes.
We COULD have been talking about this in your own thread, but since you threw a fit and deleted all your posts, we can't do that. Now you're over here crapping in another guy's thread. Internet forum party foul bra. You were off to a great start, don't screw it up now. You need to understand that if you put yourself out there online, you're going to get feedback and questions. If you want to just put up pictures of something you've done that turned out well, and don't want any comments or questions or interaction, then Pintrest is more your speed.
Whoa, that's new news to me. I thought you could make a fine lower out of a forged 80% lower. Is it the lack of hard anodizing in the holes that makes them more prone to wearing out? Would hard anodizing one after being completed solve that issue? Would that even be an option on an anodized 80% lower? I know the average home builder will have less accurate results than a manufacturer and that's another issue altogether.
I love the idea of building one for the sake of saying I did it myself but not if it's going to be vastly inferior.
Just use some KNS pins and never think about it again.
Irving for moderator in 2016
This!....Hell at this point Irving for President!Quote:
Originally Posted by driver
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOLON LABE
Wrong gender
That guy seemed pretty capable and I'd like him to give it another shot, but not everyone figures out the nuances of the Internet forum right away.
Kind of what I was thinking, unfortunately I don't think he's having any part of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irving
He needs a higher post count. [Coffee]Quote:
Originally Posted by driver
Quote:
Originally Posted by cstone
Mmmmmmm ;)
?Quote:
Originally Posted by Great-Kazoo
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
I was interested in his builds and I learned there were 80% Sig products out there and that excited me. However, he is ignorant to some things and the peeps on this forum are anything if not making sure we are lawful in what we do in order to not show a negative light to our hobby. If he stays, he will have to learn that. If he goes...his loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irving
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOLON LABE
President / gender......................................
Tough crowd.
I know he's gone, but I'll answer this anyway for future reference. 80% lowers have problems with the lack of surface hardening that anodizing makes. The holes wobble out for the hammer and trigger and safety selector. KNS pins help, but eventually even they are futile if the holes get too out of spec. Then you have a couple of hundred dollars sunk into a piece of shit paperweight. There are lots of motivations to go this route, but the one I hear constantly is to circumvent a government paper trail. Sorry, but the purchase of the 80% lower left a trail. I know, I used to run down trails like this all the time as a fed. The other is because they want to make their own, it's an extension of building your own gun. I get it. I do it for a living. Because I build about 500 ARs a year and service three times that I get to see what does and doesn't work. These don't, not for any lengthy about of use at least. So you get stuck. The solution is to anodize it and extend the longevity. One can look around for someone who can anodize it for them and learn that NOBODY legitimately can take that unserialized lower and anodize it. If you know someone who professionally finishes aluminum parts, you might be able to convince them to commit a class 2 felony for you. You will get a really nice anodized finish that way. You can then run around at tell all your buddies and anyone else that will listen how you did a home anodizing finish on it. Having seen home anodizing jobs by some really experienced gunsmiths, I can tell you one isn't just going to arbitrarily shit out a professional anodizing job on anything without dropping at least $500 and ruining about a dozen 'learning pieces'. By the time someone has it down, they have gone through enough money to build two of the guns they want with high quality parts completed by a legitimate manufacturer. OR!!!! Convince a buddy to do the finish under the table. Personally, I really could care less.Quote:
Originally Posted by jkoby27
Now, here's were I get fucking annoyed with people. You start positing pics of your 80% shit on line and believe that nobody is going to call you on your under the table finish job. You can't explain how you did the finish, and you know damn well you can't admit you convinced a buddy to commit a felony for you. How can anyone be able to describe in detail exactly how they CNC machined a sig lower but when asked multiple times how they anodized the lower can only post a you tube video? This fails even the most simple critical thinking.
Here's the problem if I would have done nothing, impression. This give the impression that the gun community publicly turns a blind eye to these issues. Mark my words here and now, 80% lowers are going to die a legislative death and it will happen soon. Having guys posting threads where it's easy to see they probably got someone to break the law for them brings the shit pie to our doorstep when that legislative fight comes. It doesn't matter if we all think its right or wrong. Public sentiment in a federal republic does count.
As for working on other's 80% lowers, I do deal with them. So does everyone at Bowers Tactical. We try to help everyone we can. That doesn't mean we won't tell you the truth about your 80% lower weather it's amazing machining or just plain fucked up. We will tell you what issue to keep an eye out for and possible solutions when they occur. We will help you as much as legally allowed. We will not let you leave the 80% lower, EVER! Not even to go to your car with it sitting on the table. If you want to know where you can get a kit to anodize at home, I'll even pull the one company that has a pretty legit system for home brewing the coating up and give you the info.
But don't come on this site bullshitting about getting someone to commit a felony for you. That fucking pisses me off.
Tanks for the detailed info safriday. Stuff I never knew and pretty much convinced me doing an 80% lower would be a fun project, but not a fun project with a long term usable product.
To be clear, a completed lower with a serial number can be left some where, right? Or is this a new thing with the recent ITAR changes?
Yes, to the first part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irving
Looks like I missed a bunch of drama...
To SA's point- there are different "types" of anodizing...
type I uses chromic acid, and is a soft, ductile treatment... not hardened at all- for different applications than AR lowers
type II uses sulfuric acid, with a thickness of 1.8-25 microns, and can be done at home with the right equipment- even a battery charger- the better controlled the process, the thicker the anodizing will be.
type III uses sulfuric/oxalic acid solution that is refrigerated to near freezing, and much higher voltage and current levels (~6A per sq ft) to get thickness 13-150 microns. This is really beyond any home setup, as you need a liquid chiller that is resistant to acid (titanium), as well as high quality power supply that can supply constant current (as opposed to constant voltage like most power supplies)
As you add more power, the acid will heat up, and your chiller needs to be of enough capacity to keep the temperature controlled. Then there's the issue that type 3 anodizing has much smaller pores- so is much more difficult to dye (requiring special dye).
If I owned all the special equipment, I wouldn't want to allow someone to use it to anodizing their lower- besides the obvious liability issues. And the way the laws are currently interpreted, if I assisted I need a 07 FFL.
Somewhere with an FFL- and it goes in their log book [panic]Quote:
Originally Posted by Irving
Okay, thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneGuy67
Okay, educational. Thanks for the big insight guys!
First off the gun I built isn't shit. Second I didn't cnc machine anything. I never said I did. I bought this project as a kit online that came with everything needed to complete. I did not finish it on a cnc machine. I'm not a machinist and have no clue how to operate a cnc machine hahaha so wtf are you even talking about. The kit came with a rail cutter that is easy to use. It also came with a drilling jig so you use a simple powered drill to drill the holes. This isn't a very hard project like you think. At least not with the jigs I bought. I'm not the only one who as said it and I'm definitely not advising it but a 12 year old could complete the lower with these jigs, they are that easy. Honestly the hardest part was assembling the fucking pistol cause I'd never assembled a sig haha. One of the anodizing video I posted was part 3 of a 4 part video series on how you can build one of these 80% sigs. I'm not trying to be an asshole and I might have gotten a little defensive when I could tell you were trying to incriminate me on this forum. I apologize. It's just a battery acid anodize bath braaaaa lol. It may look good in the photos but it already scratching, especially the takedown lever has been scratching the frame and also I've noticed in the magwell the magazine is chaffing on the inside of the magwell which is wearing through to the bare aluminum but it doesn't matter cause you can't see in there when your shooting. Anyways like I said earlier I looked into the laws before I started this project to make sure I was within my legal boundaries. SA if you really want me to write up some directions on battery acid anodizing I guess I could. You will need distilled water, baking soda, plastic buckets, sheet of lead, Turkey pans, titanium or aluminum wire, die(you can use clothing dye), battery acid, battery charger. But basicly you degrease your aluminum your anodizing and your wire in a decreasing bath using dish soap lol. Then you rinse it off good and use gloves so you don't get any finger oils on the aluminum. Use a plastic bucket for your anodize bath. Needs to be in a ventilated area around 70 degrees. Set your lead sheet in the anodize bath bucket and fill it with 1 gallon of distilled water. Then pour the battery acid in to the distilled water. Use 1 quart so it's 4 to 1 ratio of water to acid.. be careful when handling the acid. (Wear gloves that are thick or chemical resistant) connect negative end of battery charger to the lead. Turn your charger to 2 amps. Place the aluminum your anodizing into the bath and suspend it with the wire and a wooden stick. Connect your positive lead to the wire. If bubbling occurs on the lead it's working and the anodizing has started. Leave it for an hour in there and make sure the temp is around 70 degrees. Check it with a thermometer. Prepare your die bath and boiling bath while your waiting. The dye bath is distilled water and dye and should be at around 125 degrees. The boiling bath is just distilled water. So once it's been in the anodizing bath for an hour, rinse it in distilled water and then put it in the dye bath. Leave it in there for about a half hour. Then take it out of the dye bath and put it in the boiling bath for a few mins. Take it out let it cool off and dry that son of a bitch off and assemble ye pistol lol! I'd recommend watching or reading some tutorials or video as there could be a few details I left out. Also enlist a buddy to have around for moral support lol and to make sure your following the directions. I chose my father hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by SA Friday
So, how many rounds does it take for one to wallow out?Quote:
Originally Posted by SA Friday
How many have you seen wallowed out?
Not trying to pick on you, but you are invested in people NOT doing 80% lowers (lets be honest, you are involved in a store that does a lot of business selling stripped lowers or completed rifles), and you don't give any actual information in your post. You just say it won't work out that well.
There are too many variables to quantify that- 6061 vs 7075, forged vs billet... if there is any heat treat, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant H.
If it is wallowed out, there are repair methods- drill to a larger side and install bushings...
like this service (but done in your garage): http://www.triggerwork.net/arrepair.html
I was going to ask about just drilling larger and installing bushings from the get go.
Place a ball bearing over the oversize hole and give it a tap.
I would probably do that as a last resort only if the holes really did get wallowed out. My buddy who is the one who helped get me into guns and also convinced me to try building my own has an ar15 built with an 80 lower and he has owned it for almost 2 years now and has had zero issues. His lower is 7075 aluminum not 6061. The lower is also raw unfinished aluminum. 6061 doesn't provide the same high strenght and stress resistance as 7075 I've been told. Maybe the 6061 lower holes are more likely to wallow out if unfinished.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irving
I'm aware of these factors making a difference, and yes, using a steel bushing would be a 100% diy-accomplishable task that would fix it. I don't count myself in the standard DIY group, because I have a lot of tools that most people do not.Quote:
Originally Posted by 68Charger
Just trying to get him to back up his assertions that 80% lowers don't work, since they actually do.
A lot of chips on shoulders around these parts lately...